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  #1  
Old 07-22-2013, 08:38 AM
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Default My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Hello friends,

I developed a mic holder system that allows you to mount one (or more) microphones in your bassdrum without any stands and position them almost everywhere you want.

I shot a short promo-video to explain the idea behind this, show some features and how it's mounted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR3eis2XmPc

Let me know what you think, if you like it and if you'd like to have one!


Bestest
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:43 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Looks great - both the concept and the clean appearance of that system.
I like that this modification is 'non-invasive' so there's no need to drill extra holes.
And I have Sonor, too - so if it works in your drum it should work for me, too, haha.

I want one as soon as the 'serial' production is available.
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Old 07-22-2013, 09:45 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Nice. ...................................
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Thanks :)

Arky, you're already on my list :)
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Great work David! I rarely mic internally, except where there are stage volume/resonance issues, but I like the flexibility of your system. Good luck!
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Great system? Did I hear correctly? Is one of the part names is a butt strap?
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Old 07-22-2013, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Larry, when I perceived that term in the video my first thought was: Larry... haha.
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Old 07-22-2013, 04:23 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Great system? Did I hear correctly? Is one of the part names is a butt strap?
:)



BTW:
If anyone of you coming to london is interested in this system, I could easily take some with me!
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Old 07-22-2013, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Looks good...........
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  #10  
Old 07-22-2013, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by David Floegel View Post
:)



BTW:
If anyone of you coming to london is interested in this system, I could easily take some with me!
That's a good idea David. Regrettably (mostly due to lack of drilling on our bass drums) I can't offer to install one on our show kits, but there could well be people there interested. Touting gear around the exhibition isn't allowed by the organisers, but we can help keep that under the radar a bit if you like. Beware though, there are traders there who would be delighted to take your idea & make it for half the cost in China, so it's a double edged sword.

If you want to line interested parties up, & use our stand as a hookup point, feel free. Equally, if you're interested in establishing any trading partners, I can help you there too. I might even be able to get you a magazine review. Just let me know how I can help :)
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
That's a good idea David. Regrettably (mostly due to lack of drilling on our bass drums) I can't offer to install one on our show kits, but there could well be people there interested. Touting gear around the exhibition isn't allowed by the organisers, but we can help keep that under the radar a bit if you like. Beware though, there are traders there who would be delighted to take your idea & make it for half the cost in China, so it's a double edged sword.

If you want to line interested parties up, & use our stand as a hookup point, feel free. Equally, if you're interested in establishing any trading partners, I can help you there too. I might even be able to get you a magazine review. Just let me know how I can help :)
Andy, thanks for your reply.
In the moment I'm a bit worried about the existence of my product as the inventor of the Kelly Shu System has a patent registered.
I'm not sure if I'm violating his patent..

Today I'm going to write an email to the patent office in Munich, Germany and ask if there's any "cheap" method to have this checked.


Your offer is really great! I know that there might be some traders who might steel my idea.. But I'd love to use your stand as hookup point, actually.
Trading partners would be awesome. They could help out with the money ;)
A magazine review would be more than a dream.. I will get back to it :)
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:24 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by David Floegel View Post
Andy, thanks for your reply.
In the moment I'm a bit worried about the existence of my product as the inventor of the Kelly Shu System has a patent registered.
I'm not sure if I'm hurting his patent..

Today I'm going to write an email to the patent office in Munich, Germany and ask if there's any "cheap" method to have this checked.


Your offer is really great! I know that there might be some traders who might steel my idea.. But I'd love to use your stand as hookup point, actually.
Trading partners would be awesome. They could help out with the money ;)
A magazine review would be more than a dream.. I will get back to it :)
david, I know enough people to help you on your way, but checking for patent infringement is absolutely critical first step stuff. Making something for your own use is one thing, marketing a product is a whole 'nuther bucket of shit you don't want to get wrong.

Checking out the patent description should be free, as it's a public access document. Get on it, & I mean NOW!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:28 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Checking out the patent description should be free, as it's a public access document. Get on it, & I mean NOW!!
Already found it, but I'm not sure whether it's only effective in the USA or worldwide..
Are you familiar with that kind of stuff? So maybe you could help me out?
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:50 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by David Floegel View Post
Already found it, but I'm not sure whether it's only effective in the USA or worldwide..
Are you familiar with that kind of stuff? So maybe you could help me out?
I assume this is what you've found?

http://www.google.com/patents/US7723...ed=0CDQQ6AEwAA

Just because it's a US patent, doesn't mean it's not applicable elsewhere. There's no such thing as an international patent. You register your patent in one country (or sometimes, a cooperation block of countries such as the EU), then you are free to register that patent in other territories, usually according to your most important sales markets. Of course, that all costs money, so most manufacturers (especially small ones) will balance potential sales loss against cost. You can check if a product is registered in Europe by using a local German patent office search facility.

Having read the Kelly Shu patent claims, I'd say your product absolutely crosses most of their key features, so establishing what free market areas exist is paramount. Although your feature of being able to mount two mic's is unique to your design, it borrows the fundamentals of the Kelly Shu patent.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

My question is, why wold you want to suspension mount two microphones in the bass drum at approximately the same plane? If you would rotate one microphone 180 degrees, then you would have phasing problems. If one of the microphones was a condenser and the other a dynamic element, then the sum of the two would naturally be 90 degress out of phase. Am I missing something here?

Dennis
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
My question is, why wold you want to suspension mount two microphones in the bass drum at approximately the same plane? If you would rotate one microphone 180 degrees, then you would have phasing problems. If one of the microphones was a condenser and the other a dynamic element, then the sum of the two would naturally be 90 degress out of phase. Am I missing something here?

Dennis
Hi Dennis,

thank you for that question.

Ok. Where did you hear that I want to rotate one mic 180° degrees? If you'd do that, you of course would have phase issues. You would need to flip the phase of course.
And there's no relation between phase issues and different mic types actually?
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Hi Dennis,

thank you for that question.

Ok. Where did you hear that I want to rotate one mic 180° degrees? If you'd do that, you of course would have phase issues. You would need to flip the phase of course.
And there's no relation between phase issues and different mic types actually?
Then why would you have two microphones pointed in the exact same position using a double microphone clip? If it's just for redundancy purposes, then maybe you have a shallow point of reasoning.

And actually you're very wrong about the phase relationship between a condenser and a dynamic microphone, they're approximately 90 degrees out of phase. How many times have you selected three, four or five different microphones consisting of both dynamic and condenser units positioned in front of a vocalist to ensure selecting the best unit for their voice, maybe never? If you have, next time try summing a dynamic and a condenser microphone, then try to tell me there is no phase variations between the two. If you have the ability to hear correctly or see a signal on a digital cluster or analog meter correctly this should be very evident to you. Here's a more simplistic task, just set up a condenser microphone and a dynamic microphone in front of yourself. Get a correct level on each microphone by itself and then sum the two. The level will drop off and you'll loose much of the high frequency content compared to hearing each one seperately. If at this point you can't hear the problems with the phase, it's time for you to hang up your brackets and never again touch another microphone.

Dennis
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by David Floegel View Post
Already found it, but I'm not sure whether it's only effective in the USA or worldwide..
Are you familiar with that kind of stuff? So maybe you could help me out?
That would probably be best answered by a patent attorney. It's a lot cheaper to have an attorney give you the legal advice on it then a possible lawsuit by Kellyshu for violating any part of their patent. .(not saying they would sue you but if you violate their patent they have every right to.)
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:39 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Then why would you have two microphones pointed in the exact same position using a double microphone clip? If it's just for redundancy purposes, then maybe you have a shallow point of reasoning.

And actually you're very wrong about the phase relationship between a condenser and a dynamic microphone, they're approximately 90 degrees out of phase. How many times have you selected three, four or five different microphones consisting of both dynamic and condenser units positioned in front of a vocalist to ensure selecting the best unit for their voice, maybe never? If you have, next time try summing a dynamic and a condenser microphone, then try to tell me there is no phase variations between the two. If you have the ability to hear correctly or see a signal on a digital cluster or analog meter correctly this should be very evident to you. Here's a more simplistic task, just set up a condenser microphone and a dynamic microphone in front of yourself. Get a correct level on each microphone by itself and then sum the two. The level will drop off and you'll loose much of the high frequency content compared to hearing each one seperately. If at this point you can't hear the problems with the phase, it's time for you to hang up your brackets and never again touch another microphone.

Dennis
I don't get your point, tho.


Quote:
Originally Posted by konaboy
That would probably be best answered by a patent attorney. It's a lot cheaper to have an attorney give you the legal advice on it then a possible lawsuit by Kellyshu for violating any part of their patent. .(not saying they would sue you but if you violate their patent they have every right to.)
Yes, I'm going to make an appointment at the information centre of the patent office within for the next week and see what I can do. Maybe they have something even cheaper solution for me...

I hope this project won't need to be cancelled :P
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

It's a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if the one (1) proper microphone is chosen to use inside of the bass drum. Burying a D6 deep inside of a bass drum will overly enhance the bottom frequencies of the drum due to proximity effect and abundance of low frequency energy designed in that and many other bass drum type microphones. This in turn overpowers the sound of the attack. If you chose the proper microphone and position it correctly, there is no need for for two microphones buried within the drum.

Here is my point, if someone decides to use both a condenser microphone and a dynamic microphone on your bracket and the signals are summed, which they would normally be, they will have phasing problems, it's as simple as that.

BTW, how do you discreetly route the two (2) microphone cables from the bass drum. Probably through the port hole which is a bad idea for both consistant microphone placement from the pulling on the cables and resonant head life, tearing of the head. A better method of using two microphones within the drum would be to eliminate the resonant head, but then we would use stands and wouldn't have the need for a double bracket, would we?

I do have other "points" if you have to be further convinced.

Dennis
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
It's a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if the one (1) proper microphone is chosen to use inside of the bass drum. Burying a D6 deep inside of a bass drum will overly enhance the bottom frequencies of the drum due to proximity effect and abundance of low frequency energy designed in that and many other bass drum type microphones. This in turn overpowers the sound of the attack. If you chose the proper microphone and position it correctly, there is no need for for two microphones buried within the drum.
Well I understand your point. Of course you can do everything with only one mic. You can even capture your drumset with 1 microphone and get a better sound than somebody who close mics his kit.

But, why do the most wanted studios in the world use 2 or more microphones to capture their bassdrum? Just because they like to have the option, I think?
In my opinion there's no right or wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Here is my point, if someone decides to use both a condenser microphone and a dynamic microphone on your bracket and the signals are summed, which they would normally be, they will have phasing problems, it's as simple as that.
Maybe there will be some phasing problems but it also depends on how you position the mics, doesn't it? You can also have phase problems with 2 dynamic mics, and 2 condenser mics.
And as far as I know there are tools you can rotate the phase with. So that shouldn't be so much of a problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
BTW, how do you discreetly route the two (2) microphone cables from the bass drum. Probably through the port hole which is a bad idea for both consistant microphone placement from the pulling on the cables and resonant head life, tearing of the head. A better method of using two microphones within the drum would be to eliminate the resonant head, but then we would use stands and wouldn't have the need for a double bracket, would we?

I do have other "points" if you have to be further convinced.

Dennis
I have a subkick mic (yes, a third one) in front of my bassdrum where I route the cables to, so nothing is touching my reso head.
What i also did was just "clipping" the cables to the porthole, there was no difference.
(if you think you can hear that, we can do a little test, tho ;))


Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
I do have other "points" if you have to be further convinced.
I don't have to be "convinced". I talked to a lot of engineers and got ideas and inspiration. BUT if you like you can message me and let me know your opinions. I'd be glad to hear them!
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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It's a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist if the one (1) proper microphone is chosen to use inside of the bass drum.
I don't agree with that. This system is also valuable if you are just one microphone. The idea of suspending it in air is very convenient. You can position the mic much better and you dont need a hole in the front head to put a mic stand trough (which is pretty unhandy).

Besides, as you can just fix the system as is, you get much more consistent positioning if you are for example a gigging drummer.

Quote:
Here is my point, if someone decides to use both a condenser microphone and a dynamic microphone on your bracket and the signals are summed, which they would normally be, they will have phasing problems, it's as simple as that.
As drumkits are multi-miked, you end up with phase problems anyways. Phase relationship from overheads to tom/snare mics, bottom and top snare mics, phase relationship with room mics and so on. Phasing should not be an issue for a good engineer, he knows how to deal with it.

Quote:
BTW, how do you discreetly route the two (2) microphone cables from the bass drum. Probably through the port hole which is a bad idea for both consistant microphone placement from the pulling on the cables and resonant head life, tearing of the head. A better method of using two microphones within the drum would be to eliminate the resonant head, but then we would use stands and wouldn't have the need for a double bracket, would we?
Even if you dont have a fronthead, its more convenient as you dont need place for mic stands which is great on small drumrisers/small stages, That said, most guys run the mic cables trough the port hole, and some guys run it trough the hole on the top of the BD (if they have one) that is used for suspending a tom holder.
There is also no problem with pulling if you have sufficient cable lengths and everything is running lose.
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Old 07-25-2013, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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I don't agree with that. This system is also valuable if you are just one microphone. The idea of suspending it in air is very convenient. You can position the mic much better and you dont need a hole in the front head to put a mic stand trough (which is pretty unhandy).

Besides, as you can just fix the system as is, you get much more consistent positioning if you are for example a gigging drummer.


As drumkits are multi-miked, you end up with phase problems anyways. Phase relationship from overheads to tom/snare mics, bottom and top snare mics, phase relationship with room mics and so on. Phasing should not be an issue for a good engineer, he knows how to deal with it.


Even if you dont have a fronthead, its more convenient as you dont need place for mic stands which is great on small drumrisers/small stages, That said, most guys run the mic cables trough the port hole, and some guys run it trough the hole on the top of the BD (if they have one) that is used for suspending a tom holder.
There is also no problem with pulling if you have sufficient cable lengths and everything is running lose.
If you were to use only one microphone mounted inside the bass drum, why reinvent the wheel, just go with a tried and true Shu mount. It's been around for many years now and it is a Proven performer with a more robust suspension system for those wanting a semi permanent microphone suspended inside of the bass drum. I'm just going by what I've seen in the little video concerning this new double mic holder for my comparisons.

There's always the posibility of phasing problems when more than one microphone is used in close proximity to another especially if you don't know how to place them what to listen for. Who ever said this new mount was only going to be sold to good engineers. Sure, a qualified engineer will know how to deal with this, but 99% of the prospective buyers are Not engineers, they're just drummers that now have a way of inserting two microphones suspended inside of a bass drum because of some new product. You already brought to attention various phasing problems encountered on a drum kit and their causes, why would you want to initiate another, inside the bass drum itself by possibly mixing two different types of microphones?

As far as having no resonant head and using stands, this is a very common way of placing microphones inside the bass drums where I work. It all boils down to the sound that you or the producer are going after. I really can't see any of us tryimg manipulate a double mic bracket as the clock on the studio wall winds down. That being said, there is no way this new double mount can achieve the same degree of microphone manipulation or placement as with two small microphone boom stands, it's just a figment of your imagination if you believe that it can.. The only way this could possibly happen is to use goosenecks on the mount, then youi'll have a total inballance of the system.

Oh, and good luck not tearing your resonant head. I've seen quite a few heads over the years torn with just one cable exiting the drum in this manner.. simple math would give you what two cables could possibly do.

BTW, when you mention the "hole" on the top of the bass drum, are you referring to it's vent hole? Or does this mount come equipped with a 1/2" spade bit for the installation of the cables? I've never seen two quality balanced microphone cables able to feed through a single vent hole.

One last question. Are you the co-inventor of this project? lol.

Dennis
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
If you were to use only one microphone mounted inside the bass drum, why reinvent the wheel, just go with a tried and true Shu mount. It's been around for many years now and it is a Proven performer with a more robust suspension system for those wanting a semi permanent microphone suspended inside of the bass drum. I'm just going by what I've seen in the little video concerning this new double mic holder for my comparisons.

There's always the posibility of phasing problems when more than one microphone is used in close proximity to another especially if you don't know how to place them what to listen for. Who ever said this new mount was only going to be sold to good engineers. Sure, a qualified engineer will know how to deal with this, but 99% of the prospective buyers are Not engineers, they're just drummers that now have a way of inserting two microphones suspended inside of a bass drum because of some new product. You already brought to attention various phasing problems encountered on a drum kit and their causes, why would you want to initiate another, inside the bass drum itself by possibly mixing two different types of microphones?

As far as having no resonant head and using stands, this is a very common way of placing microphones inside the bass drums where I work. It all boils down to the sound that you or the producer are going after. I really can't see any of us tryimg manipulate a double mic bracket as the clock on the studio wall winds down. That being said, there is no way this new double mount can achieve the same degree of microphone manipulation or placement as with two small microphone boom stands, it's just a figment of your imagination if you believe that it can.. The only way this could possibly happen is to use goosenecks on the mount, then youi'll have a total inballance of the system.

Oh, and good luck not tearing your resonant head. I've seen quite a few heads over the years torn with just one cable exiting the drum in this manner.. simple math would give you what two cables could possibly do.

BTW, when you mention the "hole" on the top of the bass drum, are you referring to it's vent hole? Or does this mount come equipped with a 1/2" spade bit for the installation of the cables? I've never seen two quality balanced microphone cables able to feed through a single vent hole.

One last question. Are you the co-inventor of this project? lol.

Dennis
just 2 questions because i'm on the phone:
-1- why didn't you answer my questions.. :(
-2- so, why does for example(!) gavin harrison or thomas lang use multiple mics? just because he knows how to mount them? there was a time he had 3 mics. thomas lang uses 5 or 6

and I've been using 2 mics for years now and i never had phasing problems.
and no, santi didn't mean the airvent. he means that hole that is used to mount a tom holder on which is indeed a very common way in live and studio situations.
and no, he is not the co founder of this product (why on earth should this be lol? :D)
and I'm still afraid you won't hear if I pull the cables through the porthole in the resonant head or clip it on there or what ever...
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
If you were to use only one microphone mounted inside the bass drum, why reinvent the wheel, just go with a tried and true Shu mount. It's been around for many years now and it is a Proven performer with a more robust suspension system for those wanting a semi permanent microphone suspended inside of the bass drum. I'm just going by what I've seen in the little video concerning this new double mic holder for my comparisons.
I dont know how robust this system is compared to the Shu, I never touched either system. That said, the Shu is for 1 mic, this system is for two.


Quote:
Who ever said this new mount was only going to be sold to good engineers. Sure, a qualified engineer will know how to deal with this, but 99% of the prospective buyers are Not engineers, they're just drummers that now have a way of inserting two microphones suspended inside of a bass drum because of some new product.
I think that engineers/producers could be a market for this product. I'm not convinced that 99% would be drummer, simply because I cannot imagine that only drummers have the desire to mike up the bassdrum.

Quote:
You already brought to attention various phasing problems encountered on a drum kit and their causes, why would you want to initiate another, inside the bass drum itself by possibly mixing two different types of microphones?
It is not said that you always will initiate another phase issue. That depends on the mic, the placement and your own skills in miking up drumkits.
That said, if the drummer doesn't know how to mike up his kit and deal with phase issues, then they probably should not mike up their own kit but leave that to people who do know. This option is not for everyone, if you don't know how to use it well then don't use it… I'm not sure if I understand your problem of phasing vs "incompetent" drummers who try to engineer for themselves.

Quote:
As far as having no resonant head and using stands, this is a very common way of placing microphones inside the bass drums where I work. It all boils down to the sound that you or the producer are going after.
Of course its a common way, I never said it wasn't. I just pointed out that suspending the mic inside the BD is more convenient (if its done with the Shu, this product or maybe something else, thats irrelevant).

Quote:
I really can't see any of us tryimg manipulate a double mic bracket as the clock on the studio wall winds down. That being said, there is no way this new double mount can achieve the same degree of microphone manipulation or placement as with two small microphone boom stands, it's just a figment of your imagination if you believe that it can.. The only way this could possibly happen is to use goosenecks on the mount, then youi'll have a total inballance of the system.
It does take time to find the sound you are after, thats for miking any instrument in a studio. Plenty of engineers that are trying various mic combinations and placements for any given instrument. Whats wrong with taking time to get good sound?

Quote:
BTW, when you mention the "hole" on the top of the bass drum, are you referring to it's vent hole? Or does this mount come equipped with a 1/2" spade bit for the installation of the cables? I've never seen two quality balanced microphone cables able to feed through a single vent hole.
Not the vent hole, see David's answer, thats what I meant indeed.

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One last question. Are you the co-inventor of this project? lol.

Dennis
No? Why?
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:20 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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just 2 questions because i'm on the phone:
-1- why didn't you answer my questions.. :(
-2- so, why does for example(!) gavin harrison or thomas lang use multiple mics? just because he knows how to mount them? there was a time he had 3 mics. thomas lang uses 5 or 6

and I've been using 2 mics for years now and i never had phasing problems.
and no, santi didn't mean the airvent. he means that hole that is used to mount a tom holder on which is indeed a very common way in live and studio situations.
and no, he is not the co founder of this product (why on earth should this be lol? :D)
and I'm still afraid you won't hear if I pull the cables through the porthole in the resonant head or clip it on there or what ever...
To start off, you're getting quite boring and I really haven't the time to put up with your childishness and insecurities since I do have to work for a living. Another point of interest. If the audio quality of your bass drum recordings using your new duo mount even comes close to that of your spoken word on your so called "promo video" then your mounting system will have much to be desired.

Let me once again find the questions that you ask. The most wanted studios in the world use two, three or more microphones for most of their bass drum recordings for the same reason that I do, to capture the sound of the drum with complete faithfullness and to fulfill the expectations of the producer of the session. This may consist of using a ported resonant head, a non ported resonant head or no resonant head at all. Let me know if I'm typing too fast for you to comprehend. Sometimes I'll build a sound tunnnel in front of the bass drum after taking off the resonant head. I might mic the drum at the end of the tunnel, at the opening of the drum and to control the beater attack I'll place a microphone to pick up the batter head. I have hundreds of techniques for micing just about anything and if I go into too much detail, your head will surely explode. Throughout all the variations of micing a bass drum, neither me or any of the other engineers I work with ever had the use for or needed a bracket to mount two microphones on the same plane of sound inside of the drum. If there was a need for this in the studios that you mention, don't you think this bracket system would have been developed much earlier by someone much more experienced with sound than what you are? Know what (1) microphone to purchase to cover the frequency response that you're trying to capture and have a bit of experience positioning it, then you won't need two bouncing around on some homemade bracket. You'll never achieve the utmost accuracy and control of the sound with your double bracket that you would with the second microphone positioned outside of the drum, be it the resonant head, batter head or sometimes both.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I won't hear if you pull cables through the port hole? All I said was I've seen tearing of the port hole when microphone cables were routed through them. You know at some point in time, someone or something is going to snag a cable, or in your case two cables, and tear a head when they're pooking out of the port hole. You are grasping at straws my boy.

You probably don't know me, in fact there may be two people that am aware of on this entire forum that really know me personally. If you do know me and know what I"ve done for a living over the last forty five years, you would not be attempting to technically spar with me. I've had to repeat just about everything two or three times now and that's entirely too much. I no longer have the enthusiasm or time to respond to your provocations, unless they might give me a chuckle or two.

BTW, show me proof that Lang uses five or six microphones on his bass drum and also, can you name the models of the microphones since you're privy to the other information. I wouldn't want to add the word liar to your credentials, it's never good for business. Oh, what about this Harrison guy, what does he use.

Now go to bed.

Dennis
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:37 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
To start off, you're getting quite boring and I really haven't the time to put up with your childishness and insecurities since I do have to work for a living. Another point of interest. If the audio quality of your bass drum recordings using your new duo mount even comes close to that of your spoken word on your so called "promo video" then your mounting system will have much to be desired.

Let me once again find the questions that you ask. The most wanted studios in the world use two, three or more microphones for most of their bass drum recordings for the same reason that I do, to capture the sound of the drum with complete faithfullness and to fulfill the expectations of the producer of the session. This may consist of using a ported resonant head, a non ported resonant head or no resonant head at all. Let me know if I'm typing too fast for you to comprehend. Sometimes I'll build a sound tunnnel in front of the bass drum after taking off the resonant head. I might mic the drum at the end of the tunnel, at the opening of the drum and to control the beater attack I'll place a microphone to pick up the batter head. I have hundreds of techniques for micing just about anything and if I go into too much detail, your head will surely explode. Throughout all the variations of micing a bass drum, neither me or any of the other engineers I work with ever had the use for or needed a bracket to mount two microphones on the same plane of sound inside of the drum. If there was a need for this in the studios that you mention, don't you think this bracket system would have been developed much earlier by someone much more experienced with sound than what you are? Know what (1) microphone to purchase to cover the frequency response that you're trying to capture and have a bit of experience positioning it, then you won't need two bouncing around on some homemade bracket. You'll never achieve the utmost accuracy and control of the sound with your double bracket that you would with the second microphone positioned outside of the drum, be it the resonant head, batter head or sometimes both.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I won't hear if you pull cables through the port hole? All I said was I've seen tearing of the port hole when microphone cables were routed through them. You know at some point in time, someone or something is going to snag a cable, or in your case two cables, and tear a head when they're pooking out of the port hole. You are grasping at straws my boy.

You probably don't know me, in fact there may be two people that am aware of on this entire forum that really know me personally. If you do know me and know what I"ve done for a living over the last forty five years, you would not be attempting to technically spar with me. I've had to repeat just about everything two or three times now and that's entirely too much. I no longer have the enthusiasm or time to respond to your provocations, unless they might give me a chuckle or two.

BTW, show me proof that Lang uses five or six microphones on his bass drum and also, can you name the models of the microphones since you're privy to the other information. I wouldn't want to add the word liar to your credentials, it's never good for business. Oh, what about this Harrison guy, what does he use.

Now go to bed.

Dennis
Dennis, I'll never use two mic's inside a bass drum, in fact, I generally avoid a mic in the bass drum at all if circumstances allow, so I have no direct experience of this specific mic'ing method, & therefore no opinion of worth.

That established, I do feel the need to chime in here. David is a good guy, & I for one are not sensing any provocation or childishness, just a genuine curiosity to identify potential issues on something that works for him. I think you're being a bit prickly to say the least. You have a wealth of experience in this specific arena, we get that, but being high handed is not a good presentation of what you have to offer. Not picking a fight, just a gentle nudge.

Respect to all, Andy.
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  #28  
Old 07-25-2013, 08:52 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Dennis,
I have enormous respect of your knowledge/experience in drumming and recording. I learned from enough of your posts that you have a lot to offer. But... that's for the info/fact side. Now the way _how_ you bring your points across can indeed be perceived as (at least somewhat) rude. Also, please just skip those completely obsolete things like provoking questions, allegations, accusations - NOBODY needs that crap. And it doesn't add to your overall impression as perceived by the other users here. That's a fact, too.

You've added a lot of info to the discussion. Should you decide to continue participating in this thread, please try to skip the emotional etc. side, as mentioned above. Because... tell me what the benefit is when adding those things to the mere info/fact side. Answer: nothing - except for establishing some non-optimal impression of the way you're writing your posts and how that 'style' is perceived by others.

BTW, there's always options... E.g. make your point(s) but then - if something is not going the way you'd like it - simply stay away from that thread (honestly, I'd prefer this option to continuing your not too diplomatic style - while the _info/fact_ side of your contribution is marvellous - as always, but the 'style' has a serious spoiling effect). Or clear things up via PM.

Guys, think of the dinner party conversation setting, ok? Stay nice!

As for David's system: Seems like a pretty cool idea. He came up with something that boasts a few improvements over other systems. And those other systems are concepts that get used by pros. So where's the problem? 2 (or even more) mics - why not? I love to have options. Having the _option_ to mound several mics doesn't oblige me to use them simultaneously. But if I wanted to, this system would allow. Also, any phase issues can be cured by aligning them in any audio software or - as I would do, but this approach is limited to using 2 mics - by using some hardware tools like the Radial Engineering Phazer. So phase is no issue in my book. You have to know how to handle it. The term 'phase' shouldn't frighten anyone. Just know how to handle it.
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  #29  
Old 07-25-2013, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
To start off, you're getting quite boring and I really haven't the time to put up with your childishness and insecurities since I do have to work for a living.
There is no reason to get fed up, rude and behave like an *sshole… Yes you might have a lot of recording experience and do that for a living, that however doesn't mean that you need to get rude, nor that you actually know "everything". Please keep it polite, it's just a forum.

Quote:
Oh, what about this Harrison guy, what does he use.
His setup has evolved over the years but at the moment he's using 2 kelly Shu's in his bassdrum. D6, SM91A, some kind of shoeps on the fronthead and also a big water bottle with lavalier mic.
If you don't know Gavin, then check him out…

Now about the condenser/dynamic phasing thing, that intrigued me. I did some research but unfortunately, I haven't found much on it. Gearsl*tz didn't return anything usable about the topic (and thats the place where I would expect it first…)
This is the only place I found about it:
http://www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Phi.../td-p/32906792

I know that mic shootouts are often done by even closer positioning the mics and I haven't read reports about phase issues during mic shootouts.
So what's up with that?
See for example these pictures for typical setups:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/attac...c-shootout.jpg

http://www.audiorecordingschool.com/.../shootout1.jpg
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  #30  
Old 07-25-2013, 10:19 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
BTW, show me proof that Lang uses five or six microphones on his bass drum and also, can you name the models of the microphones since you're privy to the other information. I wouldn't want to add the word liar to your credentials, it's never good for business. Oh, what about this Harrison guy, what does he use.

Now go to bed.

Dennis
thomas lang: http://youtu.be/Yffum9I-FNU at around 6:10

Gavin Harrison: see his dvd rhythmic designs. He used a D6 inside, a mkh40 inside, a selfmade subkick of an old watertank where a little clip mic was in.
Currently he uses an akg d12 + a beta91. Both mounted with a kelly shu system.

See no need to call me a liar. I don't need to lie
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  #31  
Old 07-25-2013, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

I'll relinquish my final response to my "gang rape" on this forum later today when I have more time, although I've already made my decision .

This thread is not the primary reason that I'm leaving this forum, but for all intentional purposes, the catalyst along with other comments that got the ball rolling earlier than I thought it would be. A similar situation occured maybe a year or so ago. I said to myself, if it happens again I'll have to leave, it's just not worth loosing the little bit of sleep that I'm currently getting by constantly posting responses in the same thread. Last night because of this thread it got less than two and a half hours of sleep before I had to again roll out of bed at 5AM. This site moves very rapidly and trying to keep up with it and also perform the jobs (3) that I normally do, sometimes elements tend to suffer a bit because of my lack of rest. Those able to sit at home with hugh post counts probably won't know or care what I'm talking about. Maybe in a few years this might also be me. This argueing back and forth trying to spotlight each others opinions just takes up too much of the little spare time that I have. Normally when I've posted responses they were short and to the point without the drama. I would much rather be working and enjoy what I'm doing in the broadcast and music industries than to sit here at this keyboard sparing over details that I happen to notice in some threads and comment about. At least by leaving this forum, I might be able to retrieve an hour or two back of my life each day. No malice is focused on anyone.

I don't know if my comments will remain here or be moved. In any event please close my account ASAP, unless I find a way to do it myself.

Thank you, most of the four years that I've been here was a pleasure.
Dennis

Last edited by audiotech; 07-26-2013 at 05:43 AM. Reason: no reason to guess why I left
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  #32  
Old 07-25-2013, 01:47 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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As far as David Floegels math skills, they suck. You mentioned that Lang uses five or six microphones on his bass drum, with your explanation, I only counted two.
Did you actually listen to the video? He says he uses sometimes 5 or 6.
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Old 07-25-2013, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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I'll relinquish my final response to my "gang rape" on this forum later today when I have more time, although I've already made my decision .
Dennis
Dennis, there's no "gang rape" here, just a few straight responses to what you must admit was a fairly tough post from you. Please don't do anything hasty. You're bigger than this. Just a quick PM exchange between concerned parties & you're fine.

Andy.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Quote:
As far as David Floegels math skills, they suck.
Why the hate and insulting? I would expect a more professional attitude from someone claiming to be in the business for a long time now. I hope you don't argue with your clients like that, they probably don't like that.

Quote:
You mentioned that Lang uses five or six microphones on his bass drum, with your explanation, I only counted two. I sense that you either don't know or you lied.
The mics David mention are a correction on my post about Gavin Harrison;s mics, I have no clue what Lang uses. In fact, I don't know Lang at all…
Check the video, you will see in full detail what Lang uses and he indeed uses that many mics. Surely, not all together as one big mashup of 5/6 kickdrum tracks, but we where talking about phase issues and mic placement in which the Thomas Lang example is valid (because he does record all mics and combines later what suits the song).

Quote:
How many other falsehoods have you recently written just to generally deceive the real facts David? I realise that you Don't Have to lie, but why are you doing it, to gain popularity or respect for something you know nothing about?
Why do you have to attack David? Your posts seem full of a hatered attitude towards him and I have a hard time understanding why you need to get so personal and actually do yourself what you are accusing David of: lying…
David's information is correct, check the video yourself. Its a fallacy that even if he quoted incorrectly (which is not the case), everything he says is untrue.


Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
I'll relinquish my final response to my "gang rape" on this forum later today when I have more time, although I've already made my decision .
Okay so let me get this straight:
1) You are giving feedback on David's designs
2) David likes to discuss the feedback and asks for clarification as he has a critical attitude to what the feedback is about
3) You start to get fed-up with it and get personal/rude because not everybody accepts your knowledge as the true description of the world outside
4) Other forum members ask you politely to calm down and at least show some respect
5) You know accuse everyone here of "gang-rape*" and call David a liar, based on no factual evidence and fallacy thinking

I suggest that you indeed over-think everything and draw your own conclusions…

* And to be honest, comparing something deeply evil like gang-rape to some posts where forum members politely (!!) ask you to take it easy is pretty sick… Please get yourself a ticket to India and talk to the mothers who lost their <10 year old daughters to gang-rape, that certainly seems like a thing you have no knowledge about…

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  #35  
Old 07-25-2013, 07:37 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

David.

Are you considering bringing your prototype to the London Drum Show? I'd be interested in seeing it.
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  #36  
Old 07-25-2013, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
David.

Are you considering bringing your prototype to the London Drum Show? I'd be interested in seeing it.
Hello there!

Yes, indeed I will bring one (or more) model(s) to the London Drumshow!
I already asked if somebody would be interested a few posts back before that shitty conversation started ;)

I just ordered 15 pieces and I still got a few left so I might take the rest (if there is one, in the moment it's 6) with me to London.


@Dennis:
I'm really curious and this is no offense now.
Since you say you're a professional audio engineer and have worked with audio more than 30 years - I'm really curious to hear something from you.
I checked your gear, awesome gear actually, but whenever somebody asked you to post some audio files, you just ignored it..

I would love to hear something - again, no offense!




Bestest
David
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  #37  
Old 07-26-2013, 12:38 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

Do I mic my bass drum internally with two mic's? NO

Would I buy a piece of gear that allows me to mount two mic's inside the bass drum over a piece of gear that doesn't (only designed to mount one), both being comparatively priced? YES


I think its fair to deduce Harrison and Lang use multiple drum mic's inside their kicks not b/c they're having phasing issues, but b/c the sound is noticeably different/improved.

The fact that just about every bass drum mic on the market has a different shell design, they're not going to end up mounted on the same plane.
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  #38  
Old 07-26-2013, 07:37 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

-- Sorry for being off-topic ---

Dennis, why should the mods bother to run after your posts and clean up the mess you've done? It was YOU who did this.
Your posts should stay in place so everybody can follow along the discussion and make up his/her mind of how everything evolved.

So instead of some apology all you do is... whining and declaring yourself a victim?
Ok, I get it. I've lost most of the respect I had in you. Life holds a million opportunities to grow as a human. Good luck!

-- Back on topic. ---
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  #39  
Old 07-26-2013, 08:43 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

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Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Those able to sit at home with hugh post counts probably won't know or care what I'm talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
No malice is focused on anyone.
Given my involvement in this thread, it's difficult for me to conclude you're referring to anyone other than me. My post count is merely an indication of my enthusiasm for this forum, not how much spare time I have. I work about 16 hours a day on average - 6 days/week. I'm a workaholic. Sometimes my work enables me to chime in for a few minutes at a time, usually whilst waiting for a response or similar. Half my work is in this industry, half in another, although increasingly, it's this industry that's taking the lion's share of my time. Perhaps I am here too often, but this is my light relief from what is usually a very full on day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotech View Post
Thank you, most of the four years that I've been here was a pleasure.
Dennis
And I can say the same about the interactions I've had with you. I've enjoyed your input here Dennis, & that's why I was so surprised at your tone on this thread. You're a pro, & that usually means an ability to take a step back in situations that get under your skin.

Moreover, I'm just left with a feeling of sadness about this situation. I wish you well Dennis, & hope that our paths somehow converge in the future.

Disappointed - Andy.
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Old 07-26-2013, 11:17 AM
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Default Re: My CUSTOM Internal Bassdrum Mic Holder System [Promo Video]

That's surprising.

I must say, this is extraordinarily out of character for Dennis. I've been here longer than most (2004) and seen a number of members come and go acrimoniously but I never thought Dennis would be one of them.

How utterly bizarre.
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