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  #1  
Old 07-15-2013, 10:29 PM
Alphalex Alphalex is offline
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Default Miking Drums; where to start...?

Alright, so I've thought about this; I want to start miking my drums. Yes, for recording covers or audio tracks with my band, but also to hear myself playing.
The question is what do I do? Where do I start?
Apparently, I need 1 mike for each head, right?
What about cymbals? I don't need one for each do I?
Plus, I heard I should think of buying a mixer and/or an application?

Yes, noob questions, I know... But, everyone's gotta start somewhere! ^^.
Any help please? :s
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

No.

You'll need a mixer to start with (or a USB audio interface if you're gonna record into your computer), so get a good one. I'd say find a good used Mackie 1604VLZ - the mic pre-amps are adequate for miking drums, and you get 16 inputs to begin with.

But as far as how many mics to start with? I'd get THREE. One in front of (or inside, if you port) the bass drum, one on your snare, and one overhead.

Get two dynamic mics (like Shure SM58s or SM57s) and one good pencil condenser type mic (like an AKG SE300B).

Others will recommend dedicated drum mics, but it isn't necessary. SM58s are fine. The condenser overhead mic will go up over the center of the kit about two-and-half drumtick lengths up on a boom stand.

You will be surprised at how good three mics sound. If you decide to get one of those dedicated cheap-o drum mic packs, I think you will be disappointed over time. Just start with good solid work-a-day microphones and you'll have made an investment to last for all your career.

Do a YouTube search for guys recording drums with two or three mics. That's your proof that it can be done. Hell, Led Zeppelin recorded the drums in a nice room with three mics, and the entire world loves that sound ;)
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:01 PM
rpt50 rpt50 is offline
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

I just thought I would chime in here based on some recent observations. My son's band has played 3 times at a place here in Atlanta (Smith's old bar) that is well know for their professionalism and live sound. The first 2 gigs they did they put a mic on everything and it sound great, but last night they went with a set up just like described below, 1 kick, 1 snare, and one overhead, The sound again was spectacular--and maybe even a little "crisper", if that's an appropriate adjective. The 3 mic setup definitely works!!!!
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:31 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
No.

You'll need a mixer to start with (or a USB audio interface if you're gonna record into your computer), so get a good one. I'd say find a good used Mackie 1604VLZ - the mic pre-amps are adequate for miking drums, and you get 16 inputs to begin with.

But as far as how many mics to start with? I'd get THREE. One in front of (or inside, if you port) the bass drum, one on your snare, and one overhead.

Get two dynamic mics (like Shure SM58s or SM57s) and one good pencil condenser type mic (like an AKG SE300B).

Others will recommend dedicated drum mics, but it isn't necessary. SM58s are fine. The condenser overhead mic will go up over the center of the kit about two-and-half drumtick lengths up on a boom stand.

You will be surprised at how good three mics sound. If you decide to get one of those dedicated cheap-o drum mic packs, I think you will be disappointed over time. Just start with good solid work-a-day microphones and you'll have made an investment to last for all your career.

Do a YouTube search for guys recording drums with two or three mics. That's your proof that it can be done. Hell, Led Zeppelin recorded the drums in a nice room with three mics, and the entire world loves that sound ;)
that's EXCELLENT advice right there!!!
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:38 AM
simmsdn simmsdn is offline
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

You'll be amazed how good an SM57 or SM58 sounds on a bass drum.

I'd buy 2x SM57s (or SM58s) and a PG81. With stands and cables, that's about $400 new.

The actual capsule in an SM57 is the same as an SM58. The difference is in the windscreen on the SM58 which increases the distance to the capsule (which is why it has a slightly different frequency response at 40-60). Take the ball windscreen off an SM58 and you have an SM57.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphalex View Post
Alright, so I've thought about this; I want to start miking my drums. Yes, for recording covers or audio tracks with my band, but also to hear myself playing.
The question is what do I do? Where do I start?
Apparently, I need 1 mike for each head, right?
What about cymbals? I don't need one for each do I?
Plus, I heard I should think of buying a mixer and/or an application?

Yes, noob questions, I know... But, everyone's gotta start somewhere! ^^.
Any help please? :s
Hello:
This subject is a juicy one. Please read the following link for one of the most popular and economical drum mic method ever. It is really simple and the results are mind boggling! Also, make sure to check out youtube for real time setup demos, equipment information and recording results from engineers who discuss this method. Hope this helps (OK I know it will)
http://therecordingrevolution.com/20...ording-method/
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  #7  
Old 07-21-2013, 03:51 AM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

You start with 1 mic. Put it just over your head aiming down. This will approximate the drummers perspective. Keep adjusting both the position of the mic and your playing until you get a balance between the drums and the cymbals. Unidirectionals and omnis can be used, the latter includes more of the room sound than the former. I personally prefer a condenser over a dynamic for this because the cymbals sound more transparent. But that's just me.

Continue with 2 mics. Retain the overhead, add the new one to the front of the bass drum. You need this for music that requires a tight, focused kick, and if you already have lots of muffling. Kicks sound different in front than from the driver's seat (which is picked up faintly by the overhead). Most prefer dynamics for this because they can soak up more punch than a condenser, and in the process make a sound of their own which most people have come to associate with a kick drum. But again, that's just me.

Next, 3 mics. Add another one to the snare batter. Again, this will add focus and tightness to the snare, for music that needs it. It's usually at the edge, pointing slightly downward towards the middle. If you're really obsessed with the snare sound, add another one on the snare side. I do this all the time in the studio because it allows me and the engineer to add snap if the shell or head sounds lifeless.

After that, the sky's the limit. A small diaphram condenser to the high hat, mics to each tom, stereo overheads, etc.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:05 AM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

I, personally, hate the sound that only a couple of mics generate. You know, an overhead, snare and kick mic, a la Led Zeppelin. Yuck! It makes drums sound hollow and less full, which is not at all like what drums really sound like. I MUCH prefer individual mics on each drum, and either one or two overheads, or one overhead and a hi-hat mic. That said, I use in-ear monitors which allow me to hear every nuance of everything. Even if you're listening through a regular floor wedge which really doesn't provide that great of a sound quality, there's a difference with full mic'ing and "sparse" mic'ing or whatever you want to call it.

On the subject, price does not always tell the story. Because I was on a budget at the time, and needed something quick, I took a chance on some inexpensive mics from a little known company, named Kam Instruments, whose advertising and sound clips boast them as sounding better than some Shures. Of course, I didn't believe any of that, but took a chance anyway, thinking if they sounded halfway decent, they would serve me well until I could later afford to upgrade Audix, Sennheisers or Shures. This was 3 years ago, and I still have not "upgraded". Their frequency response range just seems right to me, and they sound great.

I started them on my Tama Royalstars, and was surprised at how good they sounded. In fact, I had someone tell me how much they liked the "thick" sound of my drums, and they wanted to know how I EQ'd them. They were surprised when I told them no EQ change at all. I then put some on my Mapex Saturns with the same great results. I later got another set for a church I played at that has a Ludwig kit, and then yet another set for another church with a Gretsch Stage Custom kit, after the worship leader and I A/B'd them with the Audix F series they already had. I think that says something when they already had the Audix set and had me get them a set of these.

I had direct discussions with Kam, the owner, in regards to their original plastic mic clamps, which were a bit lacking, and was pleasantly surprised that he listened. They later began to include some very nice mic clamps, which have given me no trouble whatsoever. I think they now have a plastic/metal combo clamp and an all metal clamp. Since I've developed a good rapport with Kam, he sent me some of the plastic/metal ones to try out, but I like the all metal clamps better, myself.

No, I do not represent the company in any way, nor am I recommending you buy them over everything else. But, I do recommend that you at least check them out before you make a decision, because both churches that got them, and I, still use them today, and are not looking at any others, any time soon.
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Old 08-02-2013, 02:23 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

Just a few months ago I was in your exact same spot. I took the plunge with the following set up. My observations as follows:

1. I enjoy being able to play to quality drumless tracks more than I do recording for covers.
2. With the right digital interface, I purchased the Focusrite 18i20, and some decent mic's and headphone I may never leave my room again. lol
3. I've learned from recording my practices how to better play to the song.
4. I learn something new each time I record myself. Lots of fun.

My cover recording of Knocking on Heavens Door

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Old 08-02-2013, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot View Post
I, personally, hate the sound that only a couple of mics generate. You know, an overhead, snare and kick mic, a la Led Zeppelin. Yuck! It makes drums sound hollow and less full, which is not at all like what drums really sound like. I MUCH prefer individual mics on each drum, and either one or two overheads, or one overhead and a hi-hat mic. That said, I use in-ear monitors which allow me to hear every nuance of everything. Even if you're listening through a regular floor wedge which really doesn't provide that great of a sound quality, there's a difference with full mic'ing and "sparse" mic'ing or whatever you want to call it.

On the subject, price does not always tell the story. Because I was on a budget at the time, and needed something quick, I took a chance on some inexpensive mics from a little known company, named Kam Instruments, whose advertising and sound clips boast them as sounding better than some Shures. Of course, I didn't believe any of that, but took a chance anyway, thinking if they sounded halfway decent, they would serve me well until I could later afford to upgrade Audix, Sennheisers or Shures. This was 3 years ago, and I still have not "upgraded". Their frequency response range just seems right to me, and they sound great.

I started them on my Tama Royalstars, and was surprised at how good they sounded. In fact, I had someone tell me how much they liked the "thick" sound of my drums, and they wanted to know how I EQ'd them. They were surprised when I told them no EQ change at all. I then put some on my Mapex Saturns with the same great results. I later got another set for a church I played at that has a Ludwig kit, and then yet another set for another church with a Gretsch Stage Custom kit, after the worship leader and I A/B'd them with the Audix F series they already had. I think that says something when they already had the Audix set and had me get them a set of these.

I had direct discussions with Kam, the owner, in regards to their original plastic mic clamps, which were a bit lacking, and was pleasantly surprised that he listened. They later began to include some very nice mic clamps, which have given me no trouble whatsoever. I think they now have a plastic/metal combo clamp and an all metal clamp. Since I've developed a good rapport with Kam, he sent me some of the plastic/metal ones to try out, but I like the all metal clamps better, myself.

No, I do not represent the company in any way, nor am I recommending you buy them over everything else. But, I do recommend that you at least check them out before you make a decision, because both churches that got them, and I, still use them today, and are not looking at any others, any time soon.
This is cool. The only reason I recommend less mics to begin with (for beginners) is just to reduce variables. In a theoretical sense, you can get good drum sounds without EQ by careful mic placement, I've done that before, and it's been done in the past by the pros. Also, starting with less mics I think gives you more of a representation of what the kit actually sounds like. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to play somewhere and they have mics for everything, then they also come at me with rolls of gaf tape to tone things down - take the mics away and the kit sounds like cardboard boxes! But reduction in variables and confusion is why I mainly start at two or three mics. If after experimentation you're not happy, then by all means, add mics. By then you would know what you're going after and can get what you want sound-wise.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:45 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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Originally Posted by Bo Eder View Post
...Hell, Led Zeppelin recorded the drums in a nice room with three mics, and the entire world loves that sound ;)
I had no idea. I think I've figured out why I can't listen to Zeppelin; their music is well arranged, but their sound keeps me from listening to it. I hate the hollow - garage band - sound.

Regarding the OP, I agree with your premise. But for professional recording, I would not offer this same advice.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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I had no idea. I think I've figured out why I can't listen to Zeppelin; their music is well arranged, but their sound keeps me from listening to it. I hate the hollow - garage band - sound.

Regarding the OP, I agree with your premise. But for professional recording, I would not offer this same advice.
So does this mean you're not listening to any music made before, say, 1969? Close miking didn't really start happening until then, and even then, alot of people weren't doing it because technology hadn't caught up for some time. I'm not starting an argument or anything, just that there was alot of good music being made before 1970 that, as students, we should be aware of. Just sayin' ;)
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:56 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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So does this mean you're not listening to any music made before, say, 1969? Close miking didn't really start happening until then, and even then, alot of people weren't doing it because technology hadn't caught up for some time. I'm not starting an argument or anything, just that there was alot of good music being made before 1970 that, as students, we should be aware of. Just sayin' ;)
This is true. I admire older bands, but there is something about the sound that is just ear piercingly horrible.

I could listen to a live big band all day long, and attended quite a few wonderful shows from certain bands, but the recordings from mid-70's and earlier just sound like garbage to me.

I couldn't really get into music like I am today, until the late 70's/early 80's (when the recordings just sounded so much better, to me).

There are modern bands that still have this sound (sometimes it's raw/unfinished, other times it's over-produced). This is why I just listen to the sound guys, and let them do their thing.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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I, personally, hate the sound that only a couple of mics generate. You know, an overhead, snare and kick mic, a la Led Zeppelin. Yuck! It makes drums sound hollow and less full, which is not at all like what drums really sound like.
Not necessarily. Ok, close mic'ing brings proximity effect to the party. You may not add EQ, but the mic adds bottom end to the sound because it's close to the source.

That aside, minimal mic'ing is superb at recording drums that already sound good & full, but it takes time to position the mic's correctly, & the resultant sound is very much steered by the room too. The upside is, you get a much more vibrant sonic "picture" & you're hearing the resolved sound of the drums.

Close mic'ing is better for many situations, especially where processing is expected later, & on kits benefitting from the extra control/low end afforded by close mic's.

Even better, a combination of the two approaches, allowing more choice later on. Not all minimal mic recordings with a good sounding kit are "thin" & "garage band".
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

It's all about placement and what you're trying to achieve.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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Not necessarily. Ok, close mic'ing brings proximity effect to the party. You may not add EQ, but the mic adds bottom end to the sound because it's close to the source.

That aside, minimal mic'ing is superb at recording drums that already sound good & full, but it takes time to position the mic's correctly, & the resultant sound is very much steered by the room too. The upside is, you get a much more vibrant sonic "picture" & you're hearing the resolved sound of the drums.

Close mic'ing is better for many situations, especially where processing is expected later, & on kits benefitting from the extra control/low end afforded by close mic's.

Even better, a combination of the two approaches, allowing more choice later on. Not all minimal mic recordings with a good sounding kit are "thin" & "garage band".
I guess we agree that close mic'ing typically sounds better.;-)
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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I guess we agree that close mic'ing typically sounds better.;-)
No, not sounds better. Recordings that utilize close miking are easier to work with and it gives the producers/engineers more option to work with. The more options you have and the more points in space that you capture the sound, the more control you have over the resultant sound of the drums. That is the benefit; not necessarily sound quality.

I personally can't stand the sound of hot close miking.. it not the way the drums actually sound to me. But if I were a prolific studio musician appealling to the likes of various producers, I'd use as many mics as I can.. close, far, medium, farther, wherever, whatever, everywhere, everything.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

It depends how serious the recordings etc.. are. I would recommend a mic for your snare, a mic for the kick, 1-2 overheard mics depending on your cymbals and set up, and2-4 mics for the toms depending how many and how serious you are about the recordings. You can float one mic over 2 toms on a boom and still get a good sound. This is just my personal way of doing it. Some people prefer less mics some more. it also depends how goo the mics you get are.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:19 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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...You can float one mic over 2 toms on a boom and still get a good sound. This is just my personal way of doing it. ...
This is what I do at home.

I have 4hi/2lo. Using 3 tom mics. I picked up the cheap Cadd mic set (not the cheapest, but the one above the bottom (around $200 or so)):

Kick, snare, 3 toms, 2 cymbals.

Everything I needed for my home use (which sounds a lot like what the OP is looking for). I would NEVER try to use these things for any type of professional recording or demo of sorts.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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I guess we agree that close mic'ing typically sounds better.;-)
Have you ever used an Earthworks setup with a superb kit in a nice room? :)
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:24 PM
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Have you ever used an Earthworks setup with a superb kit in a nice room? :)
Game, set and match...
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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Originally Posted by MrLeadFoot View Post
I guess we agree that close mic'ing typically sounds better.;-)
I guess ... that is bull**** ;)
you won't find a lot of (modern also) jazz recordings with lot's of microphones.

I've heard top recordings with only 2 (or 1) overhead(s), bassdrum and not neccessarily a snare mic.

Some top engineers also said (for example an engineer who worked with king crimson, amo g others):
"I had drummers where the drums sounded awesome, no matter how many mics I put on the drumset. And then I had drummers in the same room where I could put one behringer room mic in a good position in that room" (i might have messed up the grammer ;))

That proves, that:
- the mic(s) does not necessarily have to be high end
- the number of mics is not a guarantee for a good sound
- the room matters a lot
- the drummer does matter

also of course the drumset itself matters...

//edit:
- also i think "sounds better" is subjective mostly
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:53 PM
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I guess ... that is bull**** ;)
OK, I guess this says it all. Everyone, please disregard whatever I say because it's bullshit.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:01 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

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OK, I guess this says it all. Everyone, please disregard whatever I say because it's bullshit.
didn't know that everybody says whatever you say is bullshit.

but that was just a statement which is not true.
sorry man, no offense!
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:26 PM
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

More microphones generally give you more options but that's not to say that those options are any better or worse.

I treat close mics as luxury items. If I can't get the sound I want using overheads after tweaking, I'll add a bass drum mic or a snare mic. If I'm still not getting it, I might add one or two more for the options. Certain styles of music call for more processing - which in turn usually means having more options (and more mics). That's usually the case in Rock/Metal/Pop production but if you extend your listening outside of that, where the drum sound is more natural and based on room capture, you can create sounds that are just as satisfying with almost no equipment and a lot of knowledge.

When I was recording more seriously, I learned quickly that if you didn't have a good overhead sound, then your recording is usually terrible - no matter how many mics you shove in front of your drums. I've always used a minimalist approach compared to my peers but generally get a sound that is more satisfying (to my ears) and one that takes half the time to set up and a quarter of the time to edit.

It's like composing poetry. You can write beautiful poetry with thousands of words ('Rime of the Ancient Mariner', 'Beowulf', etc.) or you can write poetry with very few words (good Haiku). Or you can cook with a huge myriad of complex ingredients and get a great result, or cook with very few and get a great result.

It's about options. With recording, the overriding, basic premise is to get that overhead sound right. Without that, unless you're doing something special (like going for super-separation alá Joy Division's first album) then your kit sound will be lacking.

EDIT: Try to tell me this isn't a brilliant drum recording in context of the music. Despite it probably being only one or two microphones (and the tape decay evident early on). It's fantastic. All about placement and the right room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ11cArknek
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:24 AM
MrLeadFoot MrLeadFoot is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: California
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Default Re: Miking Drums; where to start...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Floegel View Post
didn't know that everybody says whatever you say is bullshit.

but that was just a statement which is not true.
sorry man, no offense!
Well, the way you put it, was pretty off-putting. I started my first post out on this thread by saying, "I, personally...", and gave my reasons why, So that was MY opinion. Nevertheless, thank you for the apology. (BTW, nice two-mic version of the Kelly Shu. I like it!)

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

I've noticed that most everyone who's posted about "sparse mic'ing" includes a statement about "the room", or the "venue". That's something that's important to consider. When you depend on mics that are a distance away from the drums, such as overheads and area mics (those that pick up more than one thing at a time), there is no doubt that ambient acoustics MUST be factored in.

As a GIGGING drummer, I have found that close mic'ing produces the most consistent sound (in addition to MY preference of the sound quality of close mics), especially since you often have no control over the room, where you're positioned, etc. Sure, I may raise or lower my overheads' volumes, but I can't imagine how much time I'd be spending trying to get the best placement and balance I could get relative to the room. With close mic'd drums, it's ALMOST a set it and forget it type thing; since the mics are so close to the heads, you always have a good base to start from, and often don't have to worry about those mics. Granted, in some really ringy rooms, you still hear the acoustic bouncing, but with close mics it's much less significant than if you don't close mic.

Speaking of overheads, for ME, they are the LAST thing I dial in. The FIRST thing I dial in is the kick. I want to hear a full, punchy, but not boomy, sound, and a sharp attack. The sharp attack ernables me to clearly hear what I am playing, but the recordings end up taking a bit of the the edge off the attack, which works out great. I then add snare, then toms, them overheads too taste.

I regard overheads as adding "flavor" or ambience to my mix because they are distance mics, thus pick up a lot of things at once, unlike a close tom or snare mic. It's kind of like that "hollow" sound (for lack of a better term) serves as a sort of very slight reverb, so to speak. That said, NO overheads makes things sound too sterile, so I would always run overheads to a degree.

When I special orderd another tom for my Mapex Saturns, my initial thoughts were that I would just float a single mic over two of them. But, no matter what I tried, it just didn't sound as good. Since my Saturn kit has two floor toms, I tried it on those instead, and same thing. I subsequently got another mic.

As far as "processing" goes, on the four kits I play on quite regularly, I have found that if properly turned, I really like their sounds, just the way they are. I neither raise nor lower any EQ, with the exception of the kick drum. I don't know if it's because I am using all the same brand mics on all four kits, or whether my tuning skills just happened to have gotten quite good over 40+ years of tuning by ear, or what, but not having to EQ is a bonus. I do, however, run different heads on the different kits. For example, I run Evans Hydrualic Glass on the Birch Ludwig, Remo Pinstripes on my Royalstars and the Gretsch Stage Custom, and the stock Emperors on my Mapex Saturns. And they all sound good with no EQ.

But, I must say that playing with a shield throws a curve into the whole thing, and has been the one Achilles Heel for me. Ironically, this is in a church setting where everything is mic'd or direct in to the board. There is not one amp on the stage. The room never changes and the drums never move, yet it seems like at every performance, we're always tweaking something in regards to mixing drums. The interesting thing is that this setting has the LEAST amount of mics and is the most challenging. It's only a 5-piece kit and we only run one overhead and one hi-hat mic. The shield seems to cause a lot more crosstalk amongst the mics. I would have thought the shield would make it so we don't need as many mics, but it seems to be the opposite, because my ride gets lost in the mix in this setting, whereas in all others, it does not. This is one setting that I would venture to guess that the more individual mics we use, the more control we'd have to help mask the crosstalk.

To the OP, I am sharing all this because you might have a budget. It would suck if you blew it all on a few pricey mics, only to find you would rather individually mic each item. Oh, I forgot to mention that those Kam Instruments mics come with two different capsules for the overheads. One has a standard "spread" and one has more spread. So, you can even use them for room mics. Nice option, although I only use the standard spread capsules.

Also, it seems no one has directly answered one of your questions, so I'll take a stab at it from MY PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE. No, you do not necessarily need to mic each cymbal (although in the setting described above I wish I had more channels so I could mic my ride individually). USUALLY, one or two overheads handles all your cymbals and hi-hat sufficiently, although again, in the setting described above, I am mic'ing the hi-hat. Of course, all this stuff changes if you're focused on making recordings (because recordings sound very different than what you hear live), but you said were looking mainly to hear yourself, which is a point that apparently got lost (given some of the repsonses I've read here). I hope some of the info I've shared here might be helpful to you.
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