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  #41  
Old 07-16-2013, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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personally I know many people who pirate music then pay for the album later.

It's a pretty common thing among most of my friends who are into music, yes some people won't pay for it, but there definitely are people who are willing to contribute money to the bands they support, even if it's just buying T-shirts or other merch.

And we could go into whether or not this is ethical(which clearly is where this is headed), but that doesn't change the fact that artists need to adjust to this, not ignore it.
I don't mean to get into an ethical debate, purely practical. If an artist can't recoup their investment, they are relegated to amateur or non-participant. That's my main point. One of the ways artists choose to adapt is by pursuing another field of endeavor, just like any other business.
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  #42  
Old 07-16-2013, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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I don't mean to get into an ethical debate, purely practical. If an artist can't recoup their investment, they are relegated to amateur or non-participant. That's my main point. One of the ways artists choose to adapt is by pursuing another field of endeavor, just like any other business.
I would hate to hear the kind of music made by someone who would stop making music because of financial concerns.
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  #43  
Old 07-16-2013, 07:20 AM
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I would hate to hear the kind of music made by someone who would stop making music because of financial concerns.
Why is music the only domain of humankind where it's considered an outrage to ask to be paid for your services?

Is it more important to survive or to fuel somebody's fantasy notion of improverished artist? If you can't earn from your craft you don't sit there and starve, you find another way to earn a dollar. That's how the world works...........whether it's the life of a minstrel or the life of a plumber.
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  #44  
Old 07-16-2013, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Why is music the only domain of humankind where it's considered an outrage to ask to be paid for your services?

Is it more important to survive or to fuel somebody's fantasy notion of improverished artist? If you can't earn from your craft you don't sit there and starve, you find another way to earn a dollar.......that's how the world works. Whether it's the life of a minstrel or the life of a plumber.
Here in america, when people have silly jobs that aren't really work, we don't pay them. Football players, for example, make next to nothing because they really only play a game.
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  #45  
Old 07-16-2013, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Why is music the only domain of humankind where it's considered an outrage to ask to be paid for your services?

Is it more important to survive or to fuel somebody's fantasy notion of improverished artist? If you can't earn from your craft you don't sit there and starve, you find another way to earn a dollar. That's how the world works...........whether it's the life of a minstrel or the life of a plumber.

I'm not saying musicians shouldn't be paid. I'm saying I wouldn't want to hear the sorta music made by someone who wouldn't be making music if there wasn't money in it.
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  #46  
Old 07-16-2013, 09:01 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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I'm not saying musicians shouldn't be paid. I'm saying I wouldn't want to hear the sorta music made by someone who wouldn't be making music if there wasn't money in it.
That's my point - these guys were excellent musicians, and you will never have the opportunity to hear what they are capable of. To pass judgement on someone's music because they weren't able to make a living at it and moved on is short-sighted at best. I can truthfully say, it is your loss.
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  #47  
Old 07-16-2013, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

well this guy gives it to them, sums it up in 4 paragraphs......

http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/
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  #48  
Old 07-16-2013, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Well to be fair, I could be wrong.

I think the challenge of modern musicians will have to be to make people feel privileged to have access to free music, not that they are entitled to it, which of course is going to be quite a hurdle to overcome.

I absolutely think that musicians need to embrace free music though, because it's not going to stop. You can either make the best out of it as you can, or you can ignore it.

A question of whether it is moral or immoral to pirate music is another topic entirely,imo.
Then plummers should embrace the idea of fixing a broken pipe at 3 am on a Sunday in the dead of winter.........for free.

How about our Larry having to go out and fix a shorted out electrical panel box just for kicks.

How about a highly skilled neuro surgeon being expected to perforn brain surgery for free,after some of these doctors are reguarded as artists in their craft.

Just because what someone does for a living is as much art as it is skill or science,dosen't take it off the pay me scale.

My drums cost money.Lessons,time put into practice(time is MONEY period),maintain your instrument.Transportation costs.insurance payments,food,lodging..

For every indie band scraping out a living,there are 100 or more that fall into the play for free,and you'll get exposure line of crap from venue owners.THAT kills it for the next band,and the next band.............

I started getting paid when I was (1969) 15 or 16.School dances,block/birthday parties,what ever we could manage.Typical pay was 25-35 per man a night .

Some guys don't get that NOW.

No ,musicians should NOT get used to the free music thing.The concept of music being a combination of both art and skill has long been established.

And musicians have also LONG been getting paid to perform it.

Screw that free crap.................no pay.........no music.Screw the sensitive artist routine.Plenty of sensitive artists starved to death for their art instead of insisting they get paid to perform and not having good management or business sense.Venue owners screwing musicians out of money in NOTHING new .

Just ask the Eagles,Zepplin,Billy Joel,John Fogery and countless other "artists" who were screwed out of millions for not paying attention to the BUSINESS side of the music BUSINESS

Next time you go to a doctor or a lawyer,try to sell that free crap and that all of their servises should be pro bono.

The sooner you learn that music is a business where everybody else gets paid ,the sooner you'll learn not to play for free, then ask to get screwed,and get PAID instead..

Fun is one thing.Doing it for a living and business is something else.

Steve B

Last edited by tamadrm; 07-16-2013 at 11:58 PM.
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  #49  
Old 07-17-2013, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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That's my point - these guys were excellent musicians, and you will never have the opportunity to hear what they are capable of. To pass judgement on someone's music because they weren't able to make a living at it and moved on is short-sighted at best. I can truthfully say, it is your loss.
I don't know who you're talking about.


But personally, I would be making music at any cost, under any condition. And I would be very weary of any painter of any writer who gave up their craft because of money. If the passion goes away when the money goes away, then you weren't an artist to begin with.

p.s. I'm not sure why people are interpreting what I'm saying as 'musicians shouldn't get paid'.
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  #50  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:15 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Steve B[/quote]



Guess you're right, well I guess I'm just going to give up on pursuing music as a career even though countless people make a career out of it.

anyone can get music for free, does that suck? Maybe yes, maybe no.

In your opinion, it's clearly the worse thing ever, which is fine, but you also don't have an answer to the problem, others out there, are making money off of their music and it sure as hell isn't because they're whining about how music is distributed.

So even in your view, that free music is the worse thing ever to hit the music industry, guess what? It's not going to go away, ever, either adapt or be left behind.

Personally I'm glad that people who actually would quit playing music because of the current state of the industry have quit, because the bands that make sincere music, and genuinely love music, power through whatever bullshit is in the industry, just look at King Crimson and Tool for example.
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  #51  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Also may I also mention that being a electrician,lawyer, doctor, ect ect. is offering practical services to someone.

Music isn't a practical service, it doesn't have any physical product that benefits society in any practical way, it is an art, there should be money in art, but a business musician can not be compared to another "normal" job.
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  #52  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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just look at King Crimson and Tool for example.
They're your examples? Bands that managed to gain their fair share of income under the so called "old regime" are your examples of those cutting a pioneering path? Really?
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  #53  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:25 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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just look at King Crimson and Tool for example.
They're your examples? Bands that managed to gain their fair share of income under the so called "old regime" are your examples of those cutting a pioneering path? Really?[/quote]

Not pioneers, I chose them because they worked under the label system and absolutely abhorred it, yet, despite their terrible experiences with record company's and the "good old ways" of doing things, they continued making music because they loved music.

That's all I was trying to say there.

Edit:King Crimson in particular definitely did not get their fair share of income from their works. Just as a side note.
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  #54  
Old 07-17-2013, 05:38 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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I chose them because they worked under the label system and absolutely abhorred it, yet, despite their terrible experiences with record company's and the "good old ways" of doing things, they continued making music because they loved music.
.
Ok. I misunderstood your point. However, the discussion of "free art" (for want of a better term) does extend well beyond the relm of the dud contract with the record company too. Hell, even a guy like Thom Yorke.......only a few years ago lauded for their distribution approach that actively embraces new mediums and by-passes the record companies of old........has said enough is enough with resepct to the wider issue being discussed here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...potify-twitter

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but a business musician can not be compared to another "normal" job.
That's just so very naive. Tell that to the guys who rely on it to put food on the table and a roof over their families heads.
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  #55  
Old 07-17-2013, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Music is a both art and a practical service.
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  #56  
Old 07-17-2013, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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I don't know who you're talking about.


But personally, I would be making music at any cost, under any condition. And I would be very weary of any painter of any writer who gave up their craft because of money. If the passion goes away when the money goes away, then you weren't an artist to begin with.

p.s. I'm not sure why people are interpreting what I'm saying as 'musicians shouldn't get paid'.
I assume you mean wary, not weary...

Anyway, I know you don't know who I'm talking about. Again, that is my point. These are people I personally know (or knew), who, despite several people's ignorant, uninformed assertions, where excellent musicians who made better music than most of the crap I hear on YouTube and the radio. They did indeed stop pursuing music as a career, because they couldn't make a decent living at it, and that's what I'm talking about - not just making money, but making a living. They may or may not still play, but they stopped trying to make a living at it, and spending their time and effort providing you with a service that hardly anyone appreciates as valuable. (Someone in this very thread said that music is not a valuable service.)

Yes, I know people find ways to make money making music. I think it's ridiculous and naive to assume that these people are somehow more genuine artists, just because they've figured out how to make ad money off of YouTube hits or whatever it is they need to do. To me, that makes them as much salesmen as artists. The statements such as "if they were true artists they would find a way to make it" are silly and childish, in my opinion.

Perhaps the true artists are the ones who refuse to whore themselves out and jump through whatever hoops the current economy requires, and say take it on my terms or you're not getting it.

Just food for thought.

As an afterthought - I know people say "free" music and the technology that made it possible is here to stay, so get used to it. They may be right, but we'll see. The technology we deal with today was unimagined when I was young, and I daresay there are things on the way that none of us have imagined, too.

EDIT - I want to apologize for the tone of this message and acknowledge that there are still viable ways for an artist to make a living in music, and I DON'T wish to detract from them or imply that those who are successful are necessarily less of an artist. Some of the things I wrote could be construed to say any musician who is successful today is more salesman than artist, and that's not what I meant.

Quite the contrary - what pissed me off was the implication that people who choose NOT to pursue the music business as it exists today couldn't possibly be real artists, and that their choice was somehow an indictment of their love for music and their character as artists. That is simply wrong, and because I know some of these folks personally, it's a heated topic.

Last edited by IDDrummer; 07-17-2013 at 03:39 PM. Reason: EDIT
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  #57  
Old 07-17-2013, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

The economy and business of making music have changed, and will change further, in ways that are hard - if not impossible - to predict.

My 0.05 is that there is less likelihood of an artist/band getting rich from recorded music.

But there are new opportunities as well as threats. A few months back I watched the Counting Crows playing live at the Sydney Opera House. I didn't physically attend the concert, but it was broadcast (narrowcast? singlecast?) on Youtube. I don't know the details, but I'da thunk the Crows earned some money from that.

Maybe, just maybe, this will mean that successful acts will have to stay touring to stay making money, because there isn't the money in recorded music that there once was. And that means that artists will need to remain functioning as live acts to make big money.

Musicians making small-country-GDP money is a new phenomenon. And maybe it's one that is passing.
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Originally Posted by Lunar Satellite Brian View Post
They're your examples? Bands that managed to gain their fair share of income under the so called "old regime" are your examples of those cutting a pioneering path? Really?
Not pioneers, I chose them because they worked under the label system and absolutely abhorred it, yet, despite their terrible experiences with record company's and the "good old ways" of doing things, they continued making music because they loved music.

That's all I was trying to say there.

Edit:King Crimson in particular definitely did not get their fair share of income from their works. Just as a side note.[/quote]

Yes and they also made MONEY doing it.Ask any one of those guys if they would have recorded music,and toured for free.

Danny Carey is one of the highest paid drummers on the planet.

Ask Robert Fripp if he tours or does studio work or speaking engagements for free.

Music is a business,and many that don't want to play the game,have their CD's wind up in Rite Aid Pharmacy's 2 for 1 discount rack.

Listen to the Eagles Rock and roll hall of fame induction ceramony when Don Henly thanks their manager Irvin Azoff for being their "satan".

Talk to Jimmy page about how Peter Grant put the low paying or NO pay gigs to an end for Zepplin."If you wanted Zepplin to play,you pay for them to play."

You can dream about the free music thing and playing for free as a good thing,but that notion is naive.Do you think " I Tunes" dosen't make a boat load of cash.

There are plenty of people out there making money from the labors of the artists who create it,and have those artists convinced that ,that's the way it should be.From small venue owners to arena's to record company,lawyers.promoters and managers.

If you think playing for free or giving away your intellectual property is making it in the BUSINESS,then your more naive than you think.

Just how it it that you expect to pay the bills,rent/mortgage,car,gas,insurance(multiple types,foor,health insurance,doctor visits,hospital stays,pension,education,musical instruments,...and music.

Walk into K Mart and try to walk out with a "free " CD and see what happens.

Steve B

Last edited by tamadrm; 07-17-2013 at 07:24 PM.
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  #59  
Old 07-17-2013, 07:54 PM
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Hey you want to hear something really cool Tama?

If you don't want to play free shows you can chose not to do free shows WOAHHHH HOLY SHIT WHO WOULD GUESSED OMG WHAT IS THIS?

there are benefits to playing free shows when you're a small band, it's free advertisement, it's a win for the venue and it's a win for you, if you don't want to do it, you can just chose not to do it.

Big bands don't do things for free (no shit...) because that doesn't benefit them in any way.

I don't even know what you're trying to say, if you don't want to play shows for free, don't do them, it's that simple good luck finding a venue willing to pay you top dollar with no show experience.
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Hey you want to hear something really cool Tama?

If you don't want to play free shows you can chose not to do free shows WOAHHHH HOLY SHIT WHO WOULD GUESSED OMG WHAT IS THIS?

there are benefits to playing free shows when you're a small band, it's free advertisement, it's a win for the venue and it's a win for you, if you don't want to do it, you can just chose not to do it.

Big bands don't do things for free (no shit...) because that doesn't benefit them in any way.

I don't even know what you're trying to say, if you don't want to play shows for free, don't do them, it's that simple good luck finding a venue willing to pay you top dollar with no show experience.
It's sad that you think you have to play for free to gain exposure. When I was in high school we got paid to play at parties, weddings, bar mitvahs, church functions, school gymnasiums, etc. I got paid better to play in someone's basement than some clubs want to pay today, and it wasn't because everyone was rolling in dough, either. They valued what we did. No one expected us to be seasoned pros, but they didn't expect us to play for free, either.

I think that is the problem that Steve is trying to point out - you've been led to believe your music has little or no value, and you don't see that you're being taken advantage of.
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:57 PM
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It's sad that you think you have to play for free to gain exposure. When I was in high school we got paid to play at parties, weddings, bar mitvahs, church functions, school gymnasiums, etc. I got paid better to play in someone's basement than some clubs want to pay today, and it wasn't because everyone was rolling in dough, either. They valued what we did. No one expected us to be seasoned pros, but they didn't expect us to play for free, either.

I think that is the problem that Steve is trying to point out - you've been led to believe your music has little or no value, and you don't see that you're being taken advantage of.
You don't have to play for free to gain exposure, but I would rather have that option open than closed.

Mainly I'm trying to focus on record sales, because on that field, no matter what you do it's going to be available for free somewhere, you have absolutely no control over that, so in that particular field you have to find a way to make people want to buy your record as oppose to pirating it or find some other way to make money off of your record.

As for live shows, if you're looking to make a living off of music, you would have to be stupid to play live shows for free, live shows, lessons, merch, ext. Is probably where you're going to make most of your money. But you guys are making it sound like all venues force you to play for free, which is absolutely not true if your band has any sort of following at all.

However, as someone who doesn't have a band following yet, I would look for venues to play for free as a grassroots sort of thing, gain a following, get some experience and look for some actual gigs. If you can't find actual paying gigs it's because your band doesn't have much of a following and or you're absolutely terrible at advertising, you have no one to blame but yourself for that.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Brian,

I see your point of view and used to subscribe to it (the 'playing for free' side) but I can happily say that playing for free does not increase your 'exposure' unless you are very, very lucky. Generally speaking, bands that have a genuine following will charge a fee for playing and those that want to see that band are happy to pay a fee to see them. 'Free' gigs offer almost no 'actual' exposure because you'll never share the bill with a band that have commercial interest.

The bands that can charge will be in the professional position to do so. They won't play for free and bands that can charge will be the bands with a following. They won't play free gigs. Do you expect them to suddenly stop charging all together so that you can play on their bill for free? Absolutely not. All you'll end up with on a 'free' bill are a group of bands that are only seen by family and friends, with few fans outside of that - and that is no way to get exposure. All you're doing is encouraging promoters to not pay you.

If you were offered a non-paying slot at a festival, where there are followers of other bands there that will see you by co-incidence, that's fine. You will expose your band to new people. If you're sharing the bill with a band with a large following then you will also gain exposure. In neither case would I expect to play for free but then - and only then - will you play a decent gig. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling promoters that you'll do it for nothing.

You get strung along with promises of 'bigger gigs' and they just don't happen. Trust me.

In terms of my own music, I'm happy to release anything I write under a Creative Commons licence and release it free of charge but that's purely because I subscribe to a 'Copyleft' philosophy when it comes to my own art and music is not my primary source of income. My music is not commercial and I'm much more interested in the idea spreading but if I were to write commercially-viable music and it was my main source of income, then I would absolutely charge for it.

Record labels are now much more about handling distribution and marketing. For artists to make serious money, it certainly helps to have a label on your side to deal with the complexities of distribution and marketing. The bands that have 'gone it alone' (so to speak) King Crimson, Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails, etc and still made significant money succeed largely because they have a following that their labels helped create. It is possible to release music successfully and make money without a label now (democratising power of the Internet) but it is very, very difficult and rather than acting as an artist, you effectively would have to quit any job you had and deal with marketing as a full-time job.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:16 PM
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Brian,

I see your point of view and used to subscribe to it (the 'playing for free' side) but I can happily say that playing for free does not increase your 'exposure' unless you are very, very lucky. Generally speaking, bands that have a genuine following will charge a fee for playing and those that want to see that band are happy to pay a fee to see them. 'Free' gigs offer almost no 'actual' exposure because you'll never share the bill with a band that have commercial interest.

The bands that can charge will be in the professional position to do so. They won't play for free and bands that can charge will be the bands with a following. They won't play free gigs. Do you expect them to suddenly stop charging all together so that you can play on their bill for free? Absolutely not. All you'll end up with on a 'free' bill are a group of bands that are only seen by family and friends, with few fans outside of that - and that is no way to get exposure. All you're doing is encouraging promoters to not pay you.

If you were offered a non-paying slot at a festival, where there are followers of other bands there that will see you by co-incidence, that's fine. You will expose your band to new people. If you're sharing the bill with a band with a large following then you will also gain exposure. In neither case would I expect to play for free but then - and only then - will you play a decent gig. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling promoters that you'll do it for nothing.

You get strung along with promises of 'bigger gigs' and they just don't happen. Trust me.

In terms of my own music, I'm happy to release anything I write under a Creative Commons licence and release it free of charge but that's purely because I subscribe to a 'Copyleft' philosophy when it comes to my own art and music is not my primary source of income. My music is not commercial and I'm much more interested in the idea spreading but if I were to write commercially-viable music and it was my main source of income, then I would absolutely charge for it.

Record labels are now much more about handling distribution and marketing. For artists to make serious money, it certainly helps to have a label on your side to deal with the complexities of distribution and marketing. The bands that have 'gone it alone' (so to speak) King Crimson, Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails, etc and still made significant money succeed largely because they have a following that their labels helped create. It is possible to release music successfully and make money without a label now (democratising power of the Internet) but it is very, very difficult and rather than acting as an artist, you effectively would have to quit any job you had and deal with marketing as a full-time job.
Thanks for that clear post, Duncan. You have stated it much more eloquently than this big-headed Idaho boy could have.
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:16 PM
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.......... & the booze!

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Let's not forget the chicks...
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Old 07-17-2013, 11:24 PM
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Thanks for that clear post, Duncan. You have stated it much more eloquently than this big-headed Idaho boy could have.
I've seen it time and time again.

There's a promoter that I've come across in the past that wouldn't pay bands (or even his own staff) properly. Some of the gigs were busy but when I was on that scene six years ago, I knew the names of most of the audience because they were regulars. If somebody has already seen you, they're not a new potential marketing opportunity. Exposure in the truest sense is having as many new and different people see your band and new people won't come to a gig unless there's somebody playing that they want to see. Bands that are worth seeing charge a fee for playing.

I'm not a marketer and have very little interest in business but even I can see that free products are usually free for a reason. Who wants to see little Timmy play with his friends on a Saturday night for a 5 when they can see Mr. and Mrs. Big-shot down the road at a much better venue for 25? Nobody except little Timmy's parents.
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Old 07-18-2013, 02:22 AM
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Lunar Satellite Brian Lunar Satellite Brian is offline
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I really have no idea where you got the idea that I thought bands should play for free, I never meant to insinuate that all. All I was saying was that actual copies of records can be found for free regardless of the decisions they make, someone will always put it up for download on Piratebay ect. Without the bands permission, all I was trying to say is that bands need to adapt to this change and learn how to continue making money as musicians, the thing I was arguing against, is the view point of Joe Walsh complaining about people being able to download music free and not adapting to changes. Joe was obviously not complaining about free shows because he only plays high paying gigs.

I am absolutely not saying bands should play for free, in any sense.

It was probably a misscommunication on my part, but all I was trying to say about music being free is in the terms of recorded material.

When I addressed free shows all I was trying to say was that I would rather have that option available to me than not if I were a casual musician doing music as a hobby or a second job.
Side note: I enjoyed hearing everyones view on the matter, if I seemed somewhat irritated it's because I was unclear on what tamadrum was trying to say ( still a little confused on his point).
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Old 07-18-2013, 06:07 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Returing way back to the OP, and Joe Walsh whining about 'no money' I can't help but be reminded of his song "Life's Been good'.

Life's Been Good - Lyrics

I have a mansion, forget the price.
Ain't never been there they tell me it's nice.
I live in hotels, tear out the walls.
I have accountants pay for it all.

They say I'm crazy, but I have a good time.
I'm just looking for clues at the scene of the crime.
Life's been good to me so far.

My Masarati does one-eighty-five.
I lost my license, now I don't drive.
I have a limo, ride in the back.
I lock the doors in case I'm attacked.
I'm makin' records, my fans they can't wait.
They write me letters, tell me I'm great.
So I got me an office, gold records on the wall.
Just leave a message, maybe I'll call.

Lucky I'm sane after all I've been through.
(Everybody say I'm cool......He's cool)
I can't complain but sometimes I still do.
Life's been good to me so far
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Old 07-18-2013, 06:04 PM
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Hey you want to hear something really cool Tama?

If you don't want to play free shows you can chose not to do free shows WOAHHHH HOLY SHIT WHO WOULD GUESSED OMG WHAT IS THIS?

there are benefits to playing free shows when you're a small band, it's free advertisement, it's a win for the venue and it's a win for you, if you don't want to do it, you can just chose not to do it.

Big bands don't do things for free (no shit...) because that doesn't benefit them in any way.

I don't even know what you're trying to say, if you don't want to play shows for free, don't do them, it's that simple good luck finding a venue willing to pay you top dollar with no show experience.
If you actually think playing even one note for free to get "exposure" is actually a good idea,then you've gone down the rabbit hole.

One of the great lies.There really is a Santa Clause,the Easter bunny,the flying spaghetti monster....and the check's in the mail.

How is it a win to play for nothing,unless it's a charity event or just a couple of guys jamming in a basement.

How is it "free" advertisement,when you paid for your instruments,years of practice, gas,transportation,meals,and possibly lodgeing,so some venue owner who places NO value on you,your music,your band or your talent or your "artistry"...translate to a "win"?For the venue maybe,but for you?LOL

If that's winning then,lots of us who actually get paid, are losers,but gladly so..I'll take that over the "win" anyday.

There are people like you getting taken on the streets of NY City playing 3 card montey...every day there tourist.

Your right,I don't do free gigs ,unless it's for a charitable cause,and NOT for some cheap ass club owner who's making money.....on YOUR dime.

There is NO,repeat ,NO benefit to doing free shows,except to air out your own ego,or maybe to have fun at funs expence.

Nobody is looking for "TOP" dollar,just honest and fair money, for an honest performance.

Man,have I got some beach front property in Arizona to sell you.............lol.

Steve B
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Old 07-18-2013, 06:17 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Originally Posted by Lunar Satellite Brian View Post
I really have no idea where you got the idea that I thought bands should play for free, I never meant to insinuate that all. All I was saying was that actual copies of records can be found for free regardless of the decisions they make, someone will always put it up for download on Piratebay ect. Without the bands permission, all I was trying to say is that bands need to adapt to this change and learn how to continue making money as musicians, the thing I was arguing against, is the view point of Joe Walsh complaining about people being able to download music free and not adapting to changes. Joe was obviously not complaining about free shows because he only plays high paying gigs.

I am absolutely not saying bands should play for free, in any sense.

It was probably a misscommunication on my part, but all I was trying to say about music being free is in the terms of recorded material.

When I addressed free shows all I was trying to say was that I would rather have that option available to me than not if I were a casual musician doing music as a hobby or a second job.
Side note: I enjoyed hearing everyones view on the matter, if I seemed somewhat irritated it's because I was unclear on what tamadrum was trying to say ( still a little confused on his point).
I thought my point was chrystal clear.

Play for free = stupid

Free music = just plain wrong.Intellecual property is NOT free

Bands who seek perfection in an organic,human performance(which is inherently flawed) = OCD

Steve B
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Old 07-18-2013, 06:34 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Originally Posted by tamadrm View Post
I thought my point was chrystal clear.

Play for free = stupid

Free music = just plain wrong.Intellecual property is NOT free

Bands who seek perfection in an organic,human performance(which is inherently flawed) = OCD

Steve B
Free music I would disagree on.

It very much depends what you're doing. The stuff that used to write (and still do sometimes) is not commercial and based around ideas and aesthetic exploration. I'm more interested in the ideas spreading than making money. If I were relying on music for income and it was commerically-minded, I would charge.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Originally Posted by tamadrm View Post
I thought my point was chrystal clear.

Play for free = stupid

Free music = just plain wrong.Intellecual property is NOT free

Bands who seek perfection in an organic,human performance(which is inherently flawed) = OCD

Steve B
1 then don't do it

2 doesn't matter if it's wrong, it's happening and there's nothing anyone can do about it, you have to adjust to this change if you want to keep making money. Whining about it isn't going to make it go away.

There's a huge difference between playing free shows and free recordings, the former the band has the final say in the matter, the latter is completely out of their control.

That's the only poo t I was trying to make.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:13 AM
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I absolutely think that musicians need to embrace free music though, because it's not going to stop. You can either make the best out of it as you can, or you can ignore it
Free music: It seems that noone mentioned the point that when music is free, many
artists actually can't and won't release any more of their beautiful and well crafted
pieces of art anymore. Because it's too much work and heart that goes into it completely
unrewarded.

Have you i.e. seen Gavin Harrison's post on this matter?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Harrison
Yes it's something I have spent a long time doing here in my studio over the past 16 years. I have done some of tests that you described. It is of course very time consuming but I have benefited from it - and continue to do so. I'm still making experiments with drums/mics/effects even now. I must admit that my enthusiasm for making such DVDs where I spend 100's of hours making them (only to find them all over the net on free download sites) has pretty much eroded away. I know there are many people who buy them and are happy to do so - but there's nothing quite like seeing your life's work given away on peer to peer servers to really dishearten you. It's not really even the money - but the fact that some folks have decided to give it a value of ZERO. - sorry for the rant.
(http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...t=698&page=150, Post #5965)
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Free music: It seems that noone mentioned the point that when music is free, many
artists actually can't and won't release any more of their beautiful and well crafted
pieces of art anymore. Because it's too much work and heart that goes into it completely
unrewarded.

Have you i.e. seen Gavin Harrison's post on this matter?

(http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...t=698&page=150, Post #5965)
I'm not sure that's relevant to this thread - what's being discussed there is piracy.

The Joe Walsh rant that started this thread wasn't about piracy; it's easy to make a case for the continuing evolution of the market for creative works. It's a lot harder to make a case for piracy.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Free music: It seems that noone mentioned the point that when music is free, many
artists actually can't and won't release any more of their beautiful and well crafted
pieces of art anymore. Because it's too much work and heart that goes into it completely
unrewarded.

Have you i.e. seen Gavin Harrison's post on this matter?

(http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...t=698&page=150, Post #5965)
Although I do agree nothing at this point musicians need to live with free music though, because it's not going to stop.

But the above quote is certainly a sad, but, true aspect of how some musicians are living with it the concept of free music

I've read a number of name artists question declare they won't make more albums, because of this topic. Others will put out music, but won't tour because they have non-music income that pays more.

And it has little to do with making a profit, as much as it has to do with just not losing money. Recording at a high level is very expensive. Just trying break even is difficult.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:55 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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Originally Posted by Lunar Satellite Brian View Post
1 then don't do it

2 doesn't matter if it's wrong, it's happening and there's nothing anyone can do about it, you have to adjust to this change if you want to keep making money. Whining about it isn't going to make it go away.

There's a huge difference between playing free shows and free recordings, the former the band has the final say in the matter, the latter is completely out of their control.

That's the only poo t I was trying to make.
1) I don't do it for free,except for a fund raiser or chatitable event ,or just at an open jam..

There is something you can do about it.Copyright your material,and sue those copying and playing your music without paying the proper fees.That called mailbox money,and song writers are entitled to it ...by federal law.Identify music thieves to local police and the FBI,who WLL make arrests and sieze contraband.

The NYPD and the FBI,make regular stings and arrests of unlicensed individuals,selling pirated music.That's called copyright infringement and violates copyright laws in the US.

I'm happy to say,music pirates are now going to jail and paying heavy fines.

This may not stop it,but these thieves are now looking over their shoulders.

Whining and stating fact are two completely different things.I'm stating facts here that you don't agree with,so you choose to take the low road and call it whining.

Steve B
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  #76  
Old 07-24-2013, 04:59 PM
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Lunar Satellite Brian Lunar Satellite Brian is offline
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

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1)

The NYPD and the FBI,make regular stings and arrests of unlicensed individuals,selling pirated music.That's called copyright infringement and violates copyright laws in the US.

I'm happy to say,music pirates are now going to jail and paying heavy fines.
Steve B
People haven't sold pirated music in decades, it's free.

Music Pirates are going to jail, about 1/100,000 people who illegally download music are though.
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Old 07-24-2013, 06:58 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: Joe Walsh - The truth about music

Then maybe you should tell that to the NYPD/FBI joint task force that locked up a bunch of people recently as well as close down some sweat shops where the CD's were being copied,and packaged.

Decades?Hardly.

Steve B
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