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  #1  
Old 07-04-2013, 11:21 PM
Cuttlefish Cuttlefish is offline
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Default Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Hello all!!

I've perused these forums off and on for years now and it's another fine resource for information. So glad it's here :-)

Anyway, I've decided to come out of the shadows because I need to see if anyone can answer these two questions with some authority:

1. Will aftermarket Gibraltar triple-flanged hoops correct the dreaded Ludwig lug splay?

2. Will Gibraltar hoops even fit on the Ludwig Classic Maple drums?

I spent roughly six months doing copious amounts of research on my next (and probably final) kit and finally decided on the Classic Maples. They have everything I could want in a drum in terms of sound. I knew about the lug splay issue, in fact, I saw various degrees of lug splay on every modern Ludwig drum I tried out at the local drum shops. Of course, it doesn't affect that wonderful sound whatsoever, but I can possibly see tuning/durability issues in the long term. Sooooo, I would like to know if this is a good solution to correct this issue or am I just gonna have to deal with it? I haven't really found specific answers to these questions through my own research so I've come here in the hopes of getting some :-)
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:19 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuttlefish View Post
Hello all!!

I've perused these forums off and on for years now and it's another fine resource for information. So glad it's here :-)

Anyway, I've decided to come out of the shadows because I need to see if anyone can answer these two questions with some authority:

I spent roughly six months doing copious amounts of research on my next (and probably final) kit and finally decided on the Classic Maples......... I saw various degrees of lug splay on every modern Ludwig drum I tried out at the local drum shops. :-)

Contact LUDWIG directly, that'd be something cool to ad to the forum and we'd like to know what they think about the design flaw.

Aftermarket hoops will fit, but they won't correct the problem, which is a mathematical lug to shell oversight.
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  #3  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:38 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by Cuttlefish View Post

I spent roughly six months doing copious amounts of research on my next (and probably final) kit and finally decided on the Classic Maples.
Can you show me recent Ludwig Toms/Kick with this problem ?? I was not aware of this.
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Aftermarket hoops will fit, but they won't correct the problem, which is a mathematical lug to shell oversight.
That's not necessarily true. I had splay issues with one (non-Ludwig) snare when I put S-hoops on it, but had no issues with a set of 3mm triple-flanged hoops.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the splay at all unless you've got a drum with tube lugs, where the splay can cause the tension rods to bind in the lugs. And even then, snares are the only drums that have enough tension in the t-rods for splay to matter.
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  #5  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:42 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

The lug insert is designed to swivel within it's seat in the lug casing to accommodate a certain degree of tension rod splay.
It doesn't cause any tuning issues or damage to the drum.

If you like the Ludwig kit then you should buy it and enjoy it to the fullest.
Ludwig drums are not the only drums that have some tension rod splay.
If you want you can add a double lug gasket to bring the lug out from the shell a slight bit.
I personally think that it would be a waste of time and money to do so. :)

I own a modern Black Beauty that has no lug gaskets. There is a slight degree of splay.
It is one of my favorite snare drums and I sometimes can't wait to get home from work to play it.
I also have a vintage Gretsch Cob snare that has some splay. Another beautiful drum that I have cherished for almost 40 years.
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  #6  
Old 07-05-2013, 01:20 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

My research has lead to be believe there are two issues that both contribute to the splay:

The first was the change from 1.6mm to 2.3mm hoops
The second, is attributed to the theory that the actual shell is now ever so slightly smaller than they used to be. The evidence used to support this theory is that the specs of Imperial lug itself haven't changed, yet there is a distinctly larger gap between the centre bead of the shell and the Imperial lug on newer drums, especially when compared to those of the 60's and 70's. The best explaination for this discrepancy is that the shells (no doubt as a cost saving measure) are now ever so slightly slightly smaller.

It's worth noting that I haven't been able to confirm this through any official sources. But it makes sense and all seems to fit. The theory is touted around the internet in various places if anyone cares to look for it. Given this, I'm gonna hazzard a guess that it won't matter what 2.3mm hoop you use. The smaller shell is still gonna come into play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
The lug insert is designed to swivel within it's seat in the lug casing to accommodate a certain degree of tension rod splay.
It doesn't cause any tuning issues or damage to the drum.
Most definitely. It's an aesthetic issue only.....hell, even Cindy crawford had a mole on her lip. I never heard many complaints there. ;-)
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

The best explaination for this discrepancy is that the shells (no doubt as a cost saving measure) are now ever so slightly slightly smaller.


... or maybe their molds have shrunk.
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  #8  
Old 07-05-2013, 01:36 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
The best explaination for this discrepancy is that the shells (no doubt as a cost saving measure) are now ever so slightly slightly smaller.


... or maybe their molds have shrunk.
:) :) :)
The 3 ply Ludwig shells that were discontinued in the 70's were slighter larger in diameter.
The slightly smaller 6 ply shells that replaced them have remained the same over the years.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-2013, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
... or maybe their molds have shrunk.
So have I, mate. So have I.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
The 3 ply Ludwig shells that were discontinued in the 70's were slighter larger in diameter.
The slightly smaller 6 ply shells that replaced them have remained the same over the years.
Which begs a question. Is there splay on the wooden shell drums? If so, is it as evident as on the metal snares?
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  #10  
Old 07-05-2013, 01:53 AM
Cuttlefish Cuttlefish is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their comments thus far :-)

I've already ordered the drums some time ago, so the splay was not a deal breaker for me. They just sound so good to my ear...splay or no splay lol.

I have in fact seen splay on the wood snares as well. Doesn't seem quite as pronounced as their metal snares though. But it's there nonetheless. It's quite possible that the drums arrive with no splay at all. But if they did, I wondered if there was a solution.

I haven't seen splay on other drum brands but then again, I wasn't really looking for it either. I noticed it on the Ludwigs only because I've known of the issue beforehand. So as it goes, would I have noticed had I not known? Interesting question...

So with a solution seemingly out of reach, the next question is whether or not it would affect the drum's tuning or durability (e.g. stripped rods, stripped lugs, etc). Since the receivers have some play in them I'm guessing not, but has anyone had this issue as a direct result of the splayed lugs?

I'll contact Ludwig just to say I did, but I suspect I will get a canned answer lol. They haven't bothered to fix it so it's probably a non-issue to them.

P.S. I missed the bit about it not affecting the tuning or drum integrity. So I won't worry further about it :-) Thanks a bunch!!
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  #11  
Old 07-05-2013, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Originally Posted by Les Ismore
... or maybe their molds have shrunk.


So have I, mate. So have I.


That's what life does to us....






It's quite possible that the drums arrive with no splay at all.

So, order LUDWIG and 'pray' they arrive with good fit/finish. Is that where its at with the old lion? Is that the message informed/caring potential customers (with plenty of other drum brand options) are getting from these drum forums??


I haven't seen splay on other drum brands but then again, I wasn't really looking for it either. I noticed it on the Ludwigs only because I've known of the issue beforehand.


Dude, you're reading way too many drum forums. Believe 'only' what you read on DRUMMERWORLD and then only w/caution.

So with a solution seemingly out of reach (hah!!), the next question is whether or not it would affect the drum's tuning or durability (e.g. stripped rods, stripped lugs, etc). Since the receivers have some play in them I'm guessing not, but has anyone had this issue as a direct result of the splayed lugs?

The LUDWIGGIES have responded, there's a 'swivel nut' in the lug, which is an ancient part invented to counter design inconsistencies. In the days of yore tube lug designs ruled, but you had/have to be somewhat precise when threading screws into tube lugs. The swivel nut solved this problem, build tolerances could be way off, the screwer could be drunk, high (way off) and the swivel nut insert would come to the rescue of the screwee and save thread.

In general lug splay is unsightly, take it as you may. For some it can be a major issue, especially when a company is selling a pricy snare drum/kit with tension rods jacked all over the place. Then you're in the shop and see a new $100 snare drum that's lined up perfectly, like they might have used a computer in the design process, hmmmm, or at least the proper math, or any math at all. It begs the question 'why'? This is the 21st century, our cell phones are smaller, more powerful than the computers that got us to the moon and back. Lug splay??? C'mon, who's paying for that!!

Some people are perfectionists, more detail conscious. They'll see a kit onstage, or a $2000.00 snare with rods jacked all over the place and equate it with low quality, they can't justify dumping all that cash and it not being perfect... and in this day and age it should be. Your character may then be in question too, like "Why you would spend your money on that, are you as un together as your drums(?)" etc. The influence of brand loyalty and a companies steep heritage could cause one to overlook certain things. Good for the manufacture...maybe for awhile, until the competition starts getting fatter.

In the case of LUDWIG it may be a matter of something like changing an established design will be a big ha$$el, they might not feel the effort is worth the cost, they've got some more splaining to do. The reality is any new, or old-skool builder can look at their faux pas and say "Hey, we can easily fix that... and our stuff will look more together"! That's exactly what's happening.


On the bright side lug splay does help hold tuning, especially on tube lugs. If rods/lugs are lined up perfectly in tube lugs, there's a better chance of detuning from vibration as the friction of the misalignment (lug splay) produces a little holding power. Ditto on lug designs with inserts (swivel nuts), the more out of wack the splay, the more friction equaling better holding power. That's been my experience anyway. There's variables, like how well the threads are cut etc. which in the case of 2013 the threads are cut more precise with consistency. In the old days loose threads meant lug splay was not as effective as it is in modern/higher tolerance times. Some old SUPRAS (when they were new) even with excessive lug splay didn't hold tuning worth a crap, thread tolerances were inconsistent. As the drums aged, tolerances (if lucky) were taken up (somewhat) by the effects of time on the material, usually in the form of corrosion.

Last edited by Les Ismore; 07-05-2013 at 11:12 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-06-2013, 12:01 AM
Cuttlefish Cuttlefish is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Quote:
Dude, you're reading way too many drum forums. Believe 'only' what you read on DRUMMERWORLD and then only w/caution.
Oh believe me, I always pass any info from forums through the filter of my own experience and knowledge and take with a grain of salt anything that doesn't sound right.

Quote:
Some people are perfectionists, more detail conscious. They'll see a kit onstage, or a $2000.00 snare with rods jacked all over the place and equate it with low quality, they can't justify dumping all that cash and it not being perfect... and in this day and age it should be. Your character may then be in question too, like "Why you would spend your money on that, are you as un together as your drums(?)" etc. The influence of brand loyalty and a companies steep heritage could cause one to overlook certain things. Good for the manufacture...maybe for awhile, until the competition starts getting fatter.
I bought the kit for the sound and nothing else. Heritage is nice but certainly not a reason to buy a drumkit. In fact, I would say that the greater the heritage, the more one should scrutinize the product because with time comes complacency and then mediocrity in many cases. The splay is not a huge deal to me. If it was I wouldn't have ordered the kit at all. It's not nearly as concerning as a terrible bearing edge or a crappy wrap job. Now one could say that not correcting the lug splay is more indicative of a lazy attitude that might show up in other areas of the kit. But with the handful of Classic Maples I examined during my time in the shops, the shells themselves looked impeccable. The finishes were good. The hardware was sturdy. No else seems to mind it so I won't be picky about it.

Are there better drums out there in terms of fit/finish? Absolutely. Tama, Yamaha, and Pearl are all exquisitely manufactured kits. But they won't give me the sound I want. Closest was the Club Custom and it's still a far cry from the Ludwig. Plus, what's up with those weird sizes? :P

Last edited by Cuttlefish; 07-06-2013 at 12:33 AM.
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  #13  
Old 07-06-2013, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

You actually got me thinking about something, Les. The difference between perfection and tolerance.

What I mean is that a kit could be as near to perfect as possible in implementation and still come up short either in design or aesthetics. Or perhaps the design is near perfect and the implementation sucks. Or the kit just "looks" terrible.

Now I think we can toss out aesthetics because it won't affect the sound of the drum. May not look great but for me sound is paramount. So then we are left with implementation and design.

If the design is bad then arguably implementation is a moot issue since the design will yield a negative result no matter what. If the design is sound, then implementation is fairly critical to the success of the design in its intended application. I say "fairly" because some items are more critical than others as far as drums go.

The bearing edge is the foundation for the whole thing. Muck that up and it's over. Same would go for shell integrity (ply separation, etc). After that, it's a game of degrees. How much a given flaw will affect the sound of the drum and the durability of the hardware.

I think lug splay would be near the bottom of significant flaws on both counts. Yea, it's awkward looking but apparently harmless.

I see what you're saying regarding QC and I totally agree. If there was another kit that offered THAT sound with Yamaha-style QC then that would be the obvious choice. And perhaps I could pay more from a boutique and get perfection. But then, I'd be paying significantly more money to avoid what is essentially an aesthetic concern.

$2000 is alot of money to plunk down on a kit...but ya know it's not even close to the top end of what you could pay for a drum kit. Now, if we were talking 8-10k for a Crav, then yes it needs to be perfect...no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But that's a whole other consideration. The guys who can afford Cravs AND don't mind parting with that much cash for a drum kit are gonna be the same guys that demand perfection in nearly everything they want. That's just my observation. The rest of us working poor have to balance out the pros and cons on a lesser kit :-)

Ludwig does need to address the lug splay issue because at the end of the day it does reflect on their QC as a whole. But at the same time, people are still buying those kits. I wonder how many were returned because of lug splay? Probably not enough to get Ludwig's attention. And that speaks volumes about it's significance to most drummers in my eyes.
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Old 07-06-2013, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

For what it's worth, my 2011 Classic Maples with glass glitter finish show no lug splay.
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:18 AM
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

I just took a close look at my 68 Keystone toms and there is almost no lug splay that my eyes can detect.
My 2012 Club Date Asian built toms and snare also have almost 0 splay.
Only my modern Monroe built Black Beauty snare has noticeable splay.
I still consider it a non issue.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Now I think we can toss out aesthetics because it won't affect the sound of the drum. May not look great but for me sound is paramount. So then we are left with implementation and design.

The average Joe audience member won't know the difference between a good sounding kit and a kit that doesn't sound 'as' good, there's only one kit onstage (99% of the time) and sound is so subjective, but they'll see lug splay (if they notice it) as a design flaw, it doesn't look right, things should be straight in the age of CAD and NAFTA.

So aesthetics do play a big part of the whole picture, even if subconsciously. If I like a kits looks it sways me 90%, I can make it (any (decent) kit) sound pleasing enough to my ears. Im not supporting anything new that's not made well, tension rods splayed, wacked out, there's no reason for it in this day and age.


Ludwig does need to address the lug splay issue because at the end of the day it does reflect on their QC as a whole.

Ya think?


I wonder how many (kits) were returned because of lug splay?

... or how many didn't buy kits b/c of the design flaw? Me! Score-1 for not buying b/c of poor design aesthetic. Hmmmmm, bet they'd like to know those numbers.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Considering how long these splay debates have been going on I'm surprised no one has really done any work to find the cause. It seems like if it was a change in shell or hoop size, or a difference in new vs. old lug casings someone would have pulled out a ruler by now and found the reason.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
For what it's worth, my 2011 Classic Maples with glass glitter finish show no lug splay.

IDDrummer.. Have you ever seen a Modern Ludwig Toms/Kick with splay ??

hmmmmm ,.........
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:39 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Bermuda? Any news on the official position Ludwig has on this?

Seems to me they dont see it as an issue as much as some do or they would change it. Its obvious to all but maybe only perceived as a problem to those who havent heard their explanation. It could be part of their "design" instead of a mistake as many seem to think.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:46 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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IDDrummer.. Have you ever seen a Modern Ludwig Toms/Kick with splay ??

hmmmmm ,.........
No. Just snare drums. 2020202020
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Bermuda? Any news on the official position Ludwig has on this?

Seems to me they dont see it as an issue as much as some do or they would change it. Its obvious to all but maybe only perceived as a problem to those who havent heard their explanation. It could be part of their "design" instead of a mistake as many seem to think.
Toolate.. do you have photos of this on modern Ludwig Toms/Kick ????????????????
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:57 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

I can sort of see it on this modern kit.. Ludwig Classic Maple

... so.. maybe it is all across the board..
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Old 07-06-2013, 04:53 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

I have noticed splay on Ludwig drums in the past during close inspection such as replacing heads; But, until I saw this thread I never gave it much thought.
Dang you guys! Now you have me looking for splay in every drum that I see :(
I hate you all :)
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:03 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I have noticed splay on Ludwig drums in the past during close inspection such as replacing heads; But, until I saw this thread I never gave it much thought.
Dang you guys! Now you have me looking for splay in every drum that I see :(
I hate you all :)
Just play your Luddies a while, Bob. You'll be over it by tomorrow.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Just play your Luddies a while, Bob. You'll be over it by tomorrow.
Hell, Im gonna play them right now so that I can sleep tonight :)
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Hell, Im gonna play them right now so that I can sleep tonight :)
The perfect solution. :)
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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It could be part of their "design" instead of a mistake as many seem to think.
There's no way it's a deliberate design decision. If it was, it would be applied consistently, & they'd be marketing the hell out of it. I'd love to hear the design rationale behind that :)

It's plain & simple. It's a quality control issue. Probably due to either worn tooling, or lax tolerances, or both. Ludwig know it's there, but hey, why should they do anything about it. Players suck it up, & the affected drums still sell.

Facts: very slight lug splay can occur on any drum. There's enough wiggle room in the tension screw holes in most hoops to allow a degree of drift. Additionally, many modern pressed hoops have a significant draft angle, so encourage the screws to drift to the outer extreme of the hole. Such levels of splay have no adverse affect on the drum.

Significant splay however does have a negative affect on the drum. Ok, it's more noticeable with tube lugs, but even with insert lugs, it presents uneven & undesirable strains on the shell. Shells are designed to take axial & compressive forces, not tangental forces. Such forces harm shell resonance at best. At worst, they can warp the shell, especially under uneven tension conditions. Thankfully for Ludwig, it appears that most of the drums with splay are metal snares, that are more resilient to permanent deformation.
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  #29  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'd love to hear the design rationale behind that :)
The new "Splay Lug Design" feature allows for a wider tuning range by allowing more tension to be applied to the head. The Splay design effectively compresses the heads collar by applying an inward force not seen on many lesser made drum kits. Wow your friends with acellerated rebound, and that rimshot CRACK you can't find anywhere else. Get your new Splay Snare today, where quality drum kits are sold!





For a limited time only!

Last edited by MrInsanePolack; 07-06-2013 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 07-06-2013, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

[quote=MrInsanePolack;1158344]
Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I'd love to hear the design rationale behind that :)/QUOTE]

The new "Splay Lug Design" feature allows for a wider tuning range by allowing more tension to be applied to the head. The Splay design effectively compresses the heads collar by applying an inward force not seen on many lesser made drum kits. Wow your friends with acellerated rebound, and that rimshot CRACK you can't find anywhere else. Get your new Splay Snare today, where quality drum kits are sold!





For a limited time only!
LMAO!!! Nice one :-)
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  #31  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:05 AM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
The new "Splay Lug Design" feature allows for a wider tuning range by allowing more tension to be applied to the head. The Splay design effectively compresses the heads collar by applying an inward force not seen on many lesser made drum kits. Wow your friends with acellerated rebound, and that rimshot CRACK you can't find anywhere else. Get your new Splay Snare today, where quality drum kits are sold!





For a limited time only!
Perfect! :) I'll rush off & change our designs immediately. Man, have we been missing a trick here ;) ;) ;)
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  #32  
Old 07-06-2013, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
The new "Splay Lug Design" feature allows for a wider tuning range by allowing more tension to be applied to the head. The Splay design effectively compresses the heads collar by applying an inward force not seen on many lesser made drum kits. Wow your friends with acellerated rebound, and that rimshot CRACK you can't find anywhere else. Get your new Splay Snare today, where quality drum kits are sold!
LUDWIG should hire you as a PR man.



You gotta look close people, you may not see it, lug splay... or maybe don't look close if you're considering buying.

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  #33  
Old 07-06-2013, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Perfect! :) I'll rush off & change our designs immediately. Man, have we been missing a trick here ;) ;) ;)
Then your older used drums will be advertised on eBay as, "Rare Pre-Splay Guru's" :)

I actually think the splay adds visual appeal to the snare's. Kind of a, "crown" look :)
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  #34  
Old 07-06-2013, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Anyway, back to some semblance of seriousness...

I was over at Donn Bennett's a few months ago, and as we had just had this conversation about lug splay, I was going around checking the Ludwig snares they had in the store. To be sure, newer snares had the most obvious splay, but out of five or six used snares (I want to say three of which had B/O badges), two had noticeable splay as well.

In my mind, it's just something I check for when I'm buying a snare, no matter who makes it. There's certain manufacturers and certain lugs for whom it seems to be more of an issue.

Does it affect tuning, sound or whatever? It would take much more perceptive folks than me to determine that. What I do know, is that if I'm plunking down four to six benjamins (or more) on a snare drum, I would expect the little engineering touches such as making sure the tension rods were parallel with the shell to be spot on. I would expect lug splay in a $75 snare drum, not a $1300 limited-run snare.

Given Ludwig's recent history and where, for example, their hardware has been compared to what it is as of the past two years, I have hope that the hue and cry will be acknowledged and the engineers will address the issue, even if it's a simple fix like changing the rims. I don't think the gasket fix is a good one; I don't think I want a bunch of rubber all over the shell (not that a snare's shell is that free to vibrate even in the best of cases).

I don't think I'll buy a brand-new Supra any time soon, and even the vintage ones will have a very good inspection prior to me shelling out the dough. But I do still want a Supra. It's still the best snare in recording history.
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  #35  
Old 07-06-2013, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

OK, so lets analyze the cause of the splay with factual evidence.

As I see it there are two things that can cause splay.
1) The outside diameter of the drum shell
2) The height of the lug casing from the shell.
Is that true?

This is based on the fact that hoops are standardized and changing the hoop to one that is made by another manufacturer doesn't affect the splay on metal ludwig snare drums.
Is that true?

Ludwig makes several types of metal shell snare drums and splay is seen on each type of metal shell.
Is that true?

Ludwig snare drums that show splay come with three types of lugs, and splay is seen with all three lug types. (tube, bow tie, imperial)
Is that true?

In what manufacturing year did splay begin to occur?

Lets answer the above questions to find the true cause of the splay.

If the answer is that undersized drum shells are the cause of splay then is it a deliberate design by Ludwig to ensure that the rim of the head doesn't make contact with the drum shell?
Ludwig makes drums with standard hoops and standard dimension lugs so changing the O.D. of the shell is the simple option to achieve this.
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Last edited by bobdadruma; 07-06-2013 at 05:31 PM.
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  #36  
Old 07-06-2013, 05:33 PM
drumming sort of person drumming sort of person is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

If you check out their snare drums with die cast hoops you'll notice that everything lines up perfectly. I have two Ludwig snares, both with die cast hoops (one of them using Yamaha die cast aluminum hoops) and there is no tension rod splay. NONE.
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  #37  
Old 07-06-2013, 06:15 PM
Cuttlefish Cuttlefish is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by drumming sort of person View Post
If you check out their snare drums with die cast hoops you'll notice that everything lines up perfectly. I have two Ludwig snares, both with die cast hoops (one of them using Yamaha die cast aluminum hoops) and there is no tension rod splay. NONE.
I noticed this as well which leads me to think it's more the new triple-flanged hoops than the diameter of the shell as the cause. I would think an undersized shell would cause some degree of splay no matter what hoops you used...unless the holes on a standard die-cast hoop don't project as much as the holes on a standard triple-flanged hoop. I don't know this for sure because I've never measured it.
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  #38  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:10 PM
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

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Originally Posted by Les Ismore View Post
LUDWIG should hire you as a PR man.
When Ludwig laid you off back in late 90s, did they at least provide you with a severance package?

Losing your job is no joke. It takes a long time to get over something like that, if it ever happens at all.
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  #39  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:36 PM
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Les Ismore Les Ismore is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
OK, so lets analyze the cause of the splay with factual evidence.

As I see it there are two things that can cause splay.
1) The outside diameter of the drum shell
2) The height of the lug casing from the shell.
Is that true?

This is based on the fact that hoops are standardized and changing the hoop to one that is made by another manufacturer doesn't affect the splay on metal ludwig snare drums.
Is that true?

Ludwig makes several types of metal shell snare drums and splay is seen on each type of metal shell.
Is that true?

Ludwig snare drums that show splay come with three types of lugs, and splay is seen with all three lug types. (tube, bow tie, imperial)
Is that true?

In what manufacturing year did splay begin to occur?

Lets answer the above questions to find the true cause of the splay.

If the answer is that undersized drum shells are the cause of splay then is it a deliberate design by Ludwig to ensure that the rim of the head doesn't make contact with the drum shell?
Ludwig makes drums with standard hoops and standard dimension lugs so changing the O.D. of the shell is the simple option to achieve this.

Someone should just axe LUDWIG directly, see if they're even aware, if they even care.

Either the shell is undersized, or the lugs are undersized, which ever way they want to deal with it.


Their molds could have shrunk due to wear, aren't they using the same molds they used back in the covered wagon days?


deliberate

No way, that word 'maybe' could be used to describe their approach to 'not' dealing with the problem.


I noticed this as well which leads me to think it's more the new triple-flanged hoops than the diameter of the shell as the cause. I would think an undersized shell would cause some degree of splay no matter what hoops you used...unless the holes on a standard die-cast hoop don't project as much as the holes on a standard triple-flanged hoop. I don't know this for sure because I've never measured it.

The SUPRA shells are deep drawn aluminum, hence the one piece, maybe the plugs they draw them over have worn down, or were too small to begin with, they don't want to mess with the original diameter, even if it might never have been correct.
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  #40  
Old 07-08-2013, 02:04 PM
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KarlCrafton KarlCrafton is offline
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Default Re: Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Yeah, this about the 5th (or so) Lug Splay thread.... I never heard, or thought about it until Les brought it up years ago when I joined in '08.

Regardless what someone's "tolerance" of "splay" may or may not be, LUDWIG is owned by a larger entity, that until a few short years ago, practically put nothing into the company.
Good enough reason for many people to say " 'eh, they kinda blow, whatever".
The people WORKING at Ludwig may have wanted to change some things, but the bottom line is the higher ups wouldn't do it (not really cool for us, but people weren't buying either).
Things have changed in the last few years, and are still changing. Having talked to a few Ludwig people, Kevin Packard for one, I can say they are striving and working to put out the best product possible, with very high quality standards.

All well and good some will say, but, I'm as picky as anyone else is, and I haven't had any of the issues others have had, so I still give them my business.

Ludwig drums sound like what I want drums to sound like.
No other drums have given me the same satisfaction in sound,playability, feel etc... and like most here, I've played just about everything. You have the kits that cost an arm and both legs, but not a ton of people are buying them. Those companies, say like Craviattio, have the luxury of starting from scratch, with nothing that's been used for years, and then something in the process changes, which may incur lug splay or whatever.
earl and Yamaha will come out with a new line and change the lugs to go along with the shells. Ludwig hasn't done that really until the Keystone's and some people had an issue with it. So how do you win?

My Mach lug Maple drums (going back to '90,up till 'early '12) don't have the splay. My '07-'10 CM's are all straight. I had a couple special sized drums made, using Ludwig hardware, and they are all straight too.

My Hammered 402 will get a little on a a couple lugs, and that's really the only one-ad it's also not that much unless I take off the head for some reason, and re-put it on (it's never going back to the same spot where the rods were straight. The '09 402 I sold was actually pretty straight,
One lug somewhere on the bottom of the BB snares might not be perfect, but everything else is pretty dang straight. My CM snare with the bow tie lugs is perfect all the way around. That one is from '09 I think.
The new Acro Classic is really straight--almost exactly perfect all the way around.
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