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  #81  
Old 05-27-2013, 09:15 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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OK let's try it from this angle- do you have a complete lack of empathy for this man and the circumstances of how he died?
No. Now I'll ask you a question. Had this man never held a drumstick in his life, do you think there would be a thread about him on the Drummerworld forum?
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  #82  
Old 05-27-2013, 09:24 AM
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No. Now I'll ask you a question. Had this man never held a drumstick in his life, do you think there would be a thread about him on the Drummerworld forum?
This topic is in the Off Topic Lounge section anyway. So your question isn't that valid to begin with. What happened is a shocking incident worth being discussed.

Imagine it was a person who wasn't a drummer... so what?
There's a lot of things that could be discussed, but why focusing on rather unimportant aspects?
  #83  
Old 05-27-2013, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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No. Now I'll ask you a question. Had this man never held a drumstick in his life, do you think there would have been a thread about him on the Drummerworld forum?
Impossible for me to comment on what other people may or may not post.
More often than not forum members will stick with drumming related topics (even in the Off Topic lounge) but that doesn't stop people from posting on topics which have nothing to do with drumming as well.
  #84  
Old 05-27-2013, 10:51 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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No. Now I'll ask you a question. Had this man never held a drumstick in his life, do you think there would be a thread about him on the Drummerworld forum?
As the person who started the thread, I can tell you: No, I would not have started a thread here about the murder of this person has they not been a drummer. That's because this is a forum about drumming and drummers.
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  #85  
Old 05-27-2013, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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This topic is in the Off Topic Lounge section anyway. So your question isn't that valid to begin with. What happened is a shocking incident worth being discussed.

Imagine it was a person who wasn't a drummer... so what?
There's a lot of things that could be discussed, but why focusing on rather unimportant aspects?
Good points. Unfortunate this thread has become to some extent a discussion of the merits of gun control. Whether or not guns can help or hurt in any situation totally depends on the particulars of the setting and the individuals. It's mindless to debate the issue one way or the other in a hypothetical situation.

It's more relevant to look at the motives of the attackers, not the technology they employed in carrying out their assault.
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  #86  
Old 05-27-2013, 01:09 PM
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It's more relevant to look at the motives of the attackers, not the technology they employed in carrying out their assault.
True, but crazies dont really share patterns other than using fear as a tactic and then wanting to have themselves or their causes plastered on front pages. Causes are excuses that justify their craziness to themselves.

...
  #87  
Old 05-27-2013, 01:14 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Causes are excuses that justify their craziness to themselves.

...
Yes, justification is used as internal permission to transgress human decency. Regrettably, it's not just individuals & rogue groups that apply that to their decision making :(
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  #88  
Old 05-27-2013, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

They need to be executed and buried with swine. (poor little piggys)
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  #89  
Old 05-27-2013, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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True, but crazies dont really share patterns other than using fear as a tactic and then wanting to have themselves or their causes plastered on front pages. Causes are excuses that justify their craziness to themselves.

...
Depends on the crazies. Creating an interpretation of some religion to justify violence, for example, is common throughout history for evil people. If it's important to the crazies, it should be important to us.

Bigots and apologists for the crazies will blur the line between the crazies and the peaceful followers of a religion, lumping them all into one group. Rational people, committed to human rights and freedom of expression, aren't afraid to view violent religious fanaticism as a distinct thing that must be dealt with for what it is.
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  #90  
Old 05-27-2013, 08:03 PM
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Depends on the crazies. Creating an interpretation of some religion to justify violence, for example, is common throughout history for evil people. If it's important to the crazies, it should be important to us.

Bigots and apologists for the crazies will blur the line between the crazies and the peaceful followers of a religion, lumping them all into one group. Rational people, committed to human rights and freedom of expression, aren't afraid to view violent religious fanaticism as a distinct thing that must be dealt with for what it is.
Yea, religion is and has always been an easy and natural weapon. Call upon people's faith, find an interpretation that makes people kill and die for their God/ their Cause and press the red button. You are right, this is an age old tactic and there's nothing remotely new about it. There's no part of the world that hasnt seen this in play at sometime or another.

My issue really is with an increasingly political media, which mutes moderate and rational voices because the crazies make much better Television, better TRPs, more advertising revenue,whatever. Perhaps in this whole Jihad-ization ( ? ) of our modern post 9 /11 lives, there aren't enough moderate voices amongst those people to start with, I dont know, Im no political expert.

I just think that a responsible media could have played an important role in bridging a greater understanding of issues in this very dangerous phase of world politics, where we sit on the brink of a war of civilizations, but it chooses to low ball it.

When you say evil people, I hope you mean a group of individuals and not race, religion or color, because the history of the world is too littered with the ethnic cleansing of so called evil people in practically every corner of the globe and has left scars that fester for many generations.

...

Last edited by aydee; 05-27-2013 at 11:10 PM.
  #91  
Old 05-27-2013, 08:57 PM
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You've missed the point, though. If you'd never heard of him, why would you care about him?
I care because of the manner in which he met his senseless death.I care because It's part of who I am.

Because of who I am,I became a police officer and had no problem with putting my life at risk,so a stranger that I never met,would live.

All first responders more or less, think like that,not just me.It's what we do,as do soldiers and sailors.

We all sign up for mostly the same reasons,and when one of us meets their demise,we show solidarity and respect for a fallen comrad in arms.

Lots of civilians feel the same way and when people are killed by some fundementalist,hatred filled humanoid:we are offended and mourn the dead as a species.The same way that other animals mourn their dead.

In every part of the globe,we as a species MUST look at this senseless murder,and collectivly say....no more.

We must all do whatever we have to do,to bring every last one of these humanoids down.I call them humanoids because they have chosen to exist outside of the morals and laws, that all good people who behave in rational and mutually respectful,have chosen to act.

Homicide for the sake of hatred and a belief system,must come to an end.We all need to be offended and highly motivated to see these acts and way of thinking, come to an end.

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  #92  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:28 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Yea, religion is and has always been an easy and natural weapon. Call upon people's faith, find an interpretation that makes people kill and die for their God/ their Cause and press the red button. You are right, this is an age old tactic and there's nothing remotely new about it. There's no part of the world that hasnt seen this in play at sometime or another.

My issue really is with an increasingly political media, which mutes moderate and rational voices because the crazies make much better Television, better TRPs, more advertising revenue,whatever. Perhaps in this whole Jihad-ization ( ? ) of our modern post 9 /11 lives, there aren't enough moderate voices amongst those people to start with, I dont know, Im no political expert.

I just think that a responsible media could have played an important role in bridging a greater understanding of issues in this very dangerous phase of world politics, where we sit on the brink of a war of civilizations, but it chooses to low ball it.

When you say evil people, I hope you mean a group of individuals and not race, religion or color, because the history of the world is too littered with the ethnic cleansing of so called evil people in practically every corner of the globe and has left scars that fester for many generations.

...
When I say evil people, I mean people who preach and practice hatred and violence. They might unite themselves under a common symbol/book/folklore/skin color. I understand that others may unite themselves under closely rated symbols/books/folklore/skin color and not be evil. Holy cow, I have to constantly restate this.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about when I say evil people. Believe what they are saying:

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  #93  
Old 05-28-2013, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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As the person who started the thread, I can tell you: No, I would not have started a thread here about the murder of this person had they not been a drummer. That's because this is a forum about drumming and drummers.
Exactly, thank you DMC.
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  #94  
Old 05-28-2013, 02:57 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Here's an example of what I'm talking about when I say evil people. Believe what they are saying:

Thing is, they are not evil. They believe they are fighting evil. They think we are evil. But we don't think we are.

The planet is heavily populated. People start getting in each others' way. Fights break out. Part of the fight is the one for the high moral ground to gain supporters (or at least not be hindered). It really is that simple.

What if we didn't have extremists? Is it possible not to have extremists, or for the most extreme fringes of society to be at least tolerably extreme? (say, they just blow up letterboxes instead).

Is extremism and fascism a natural tendency of humans? It appears to be like a psychological sickness that breaks out in populations every now and then - Pol Pot, Stalin, the 3rd Reich, Cultural Revolution, Taliban ... a societal illness that grows out of a despairing population.

Just goes to show how important it is to keep up good morale in the face of all these difficulties.
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  #95  
Old 05-28-2013, 03:02 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Thing is, they are not evil. They believe they are fighting evil. They think we are evil. But we don't think we are.

The planet is heavily populated. People start getting in each others' way. Fights break out. Part of the fight is the one for the high moral ground to gain supporters (or at least not be hindered). It really is that simple.

What if we didn't have extremists? Is it possible not to have extremists, or for the most extreme fringes of society to be at least tolerably extreme? (say, they just blow up letterboxes instead).

Is extremism and fascism a natural tendency of humans? It appears to be like a psychological sickness that breaks out in populations every now and then - Pol Pot, Stalin, the 3rd Reich, Cultural Revolution, Taliban ... a societal illness that grows out of a despairing population.

Just goes to show how important it is to keep up good morale in the face of all these difficulties.
People who preach evil or do evil, are evil. We become what we preach and do.

I guess some of it depends on how you define evil, while knowing that we all have evil tendencies within us. Publicly calling for the beheading of those who criticize you is definitely evil, and suggests a person may be, or is becoming, predominantly evil. I have no reservations judging others by my moral code, which values democracy, tolerance, democracy, productivity, progress and free expression. I don't want to change people or convince them of the "superiority" of my values; my values work fine enough for me and others who share them in a liberal First-World democracy, so we must resist at all costs changing them. If someone disagree with that, they need to return to whence they came because, as you say, the world is becoming crowded.

You raise a valid point: The people in this photo think I am evil. Because I support the rights of women to get an education and live without the threat of being forced into marriage at age 8, or having acid thrown in their faces, or being set afire in an honor killing. Because I think homosexuals shouldn't be stoned to death. Because I think thieves should not have their hands and feet chopped off. Because I think artists should be free to create art and music that challenges the status quo. Because I think the people should select their leaders. Because I think no one should be forced to pray to any god if they choose not to. Because I believe in basic human rights. If that makes me "evil," then m eand everyone else in a liberal first-world democracy really is "evil." Grea, are you "evil" too? If so, then these people want to behead you. Or, that's what they say and maybe they're just kidding around and don't really mean what they say.

The planet is heavily populated. I am mystified, then, why people leave a familiar community and then come to a new nation and immediately want to take it backwards 1,000 years. Such people should be gently escorted back to their native lands, where they are free to repress.
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Last edited by Deathmetalconga; 05-28-2013 at 03:19 AM.
  #96  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:12 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...its?CMP=twt_gu

The EDL is the English Defence League. The clue is in the name.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:41 PM
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The people in this photo think I am evil.
I suspect they believe you're evil because they believe the propaganda, old bean. People are the same everywhere.

There's a lot of tension due to globalisation. The world is in transition to a new age according to Michio Kaku, who has some very interesting thoughts on all this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPC47qMJVg
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Old 05-28-2013, 05:13 PM
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some very interesting thoughts on all this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPC47qMJVg
Very interesting, Grea. Scientists have this wonderful way of zooming out to a really macro view of things that we take at face value.

There is nothing that I really disagree with in anything DMC has said, except that I think the answers lie elsewhere. To quote Russell Brand ( of all people..!!! )
'The answer is not for us to move further from one another, crouched in opposing fortresses constructed from vindictive words.
We need now to move closer to one another, to understand one another in order to fight extremism.


...
  #99  
Old 05-28-2013, 09:03 PM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...its?CMP=twt_gu

The EDL is the English Defence League. The clue is in the name.
Wow, that's a good story and a model for positive engagement.

I sense the British media are very biased against the EDL. Yeah, their name is a bit confrontational, but I've looked over their literature and they are consistent in their opposition to violent, radical hate factions - not to any religion in general. They also have a strong LGBT faction, as LGBT are subject to beheading and death in hardline Islamic states and are suffering increasing attacks in Britain.
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  #100  
Old 05-28-2013, 09:09 PM
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Very interesting, Grea. Scientists have this wonderful way of zooming out to a really macro view of things that we take at face value.

There is nothing that I really disagree with in anything DMC has said, except that I think the answers lie elsewhere. To quote Russell Brand ( of all people..!!! )
'The answer is not for us to move further from one another, crouched in opposing fortresses constructed from vindictive words.
We need now to move closer to one another, to understand one another in order to fight extremism.


...

That's a great quote from Bertrand. As long as everyone buys into that, great progress is possible. Indeed, that's the only way humanity has progressed.

All we have to do is hope the misguided faction comes to realize that beheading critics, silencing artists and musicians, mutilating criminals, raping little girls, forcing conversion and honor killings are highly inappropriate, and then we can all move closer together for a brighter future. Most people in liberal first-world democracies are willing to do that. But we are no more willing to give up our commitment to democracy and human rights, than the extremist faction is willing to give up its hatred of these things.
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  #101  
Old 05-28-2013, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Wow, that's a good story and a model for positive engagement.

I sense the British media are very biased against the EDL. Yeah, their name is a bit confrontational, but I've looked over their literature and they are consistent in their opposition to violent, radical hate factions - not to any religion in general. They also have a strong LGBT faction, as LGBT are subject to beheading and death in hardline Islamic states and are suffering increasing attacks in Britain.
Sorry, lovely, they are a neo-fascist racist entity, who would have me sent back to a country only one of my parents vaguely knew of.

It comes to something, when the sight of your chosen country's flag fills you with fear, no??
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  #102  
Old 05-28-2013, 09:20 PM
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I suspect they believe you're evil because they believe the propaganda, old bean. People are the same everywhere.

There's a lot of tension due to globalisation. The world is in transition to a new age according to Michio Kaku, who has some very interesting thoughts on all this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPC47qMJVg
I don't think these people are deluded, or misinformed due to propaganda. They know what I believe and I know what they believe (for clarity, pretend the words "violent Muslim extremists" are inserted parenthetically after every word I write here). We have beliefs that we hold dear and they have beliefs they hold dear and we are all very vocal about what they are in this increasingly interconnected world. Websites on the Internets, stories about life in far-off lands where rape victims are subject to public flogging, pictures of public demonstrations with large-letter signs, random butchery in the streets with a video explanation - stuff like that is hard to miss, or misinterpret.

When people call for the beheading of those who insult them, I take them at their word, at least as a matter of courtesy. Like Maya Angelou said, "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them."
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  #103  
Old 05-28-2013, 09:42 PM
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I don't think these people are deluded, or misinformed due to propaganda. They know what I believe and I know what they believe (for clarity, pretend the words "violent Muslim extremists" are inserted parenthetically after every word I write here). We have beliefs that we hold dear and they have beliefs they hold dear and we are all very vocal about what they are in this increasingly interconnected world. Websites on the Internets, stories about life in far-off lands where rape victims are subject to public flogging, pictures of public demonstrations with large-letter signs, random butchery in the streets with a video explanation - stuff like that is hard to miss, or misinterpret.

When people call for the beheading of those who insult them, I take them at their word, at least as a matter of courtesy. Like Maya Angelou said, "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them."
There's a difference between religious dogma and cultural belief. The latter is largely responsible for wrongs committed, and is at once the easiest and most difficult to rectify.
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  #104  
Old 05-28-2013, 09:51 PM
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Sorry, lovely, they are a neo-fascist racist entity, who would have me sent back to a country only one of my parents vaguely knew of.

It comes to something, when the sight of your chosen country's flag fills you with fear, no??

Unfortunately, the EDL are victims of misdirected internal extremists just as much as Islam, Christianity, et al. The core of the EDL ideology is surprisingly anti-fascist if you took the time to read it with an unbiased mind and they have some core members who are of non-white origins... but there are a few idiots who appropriate the name and act in an extreme fashion - much like the idiots who blow themselves up or behead people in the street in the name of Islam. You cannot tar them all with the same brush in almost the same breath as saying you cannot judge all Islamics by the the lunatic few. The EDL is not the National Front, and they certainly are not Nazis - regardless of what a few 'members' claim to be.

No need to be scared of the English Flag, embrace it! We wouldn't be in such a mess if more people who migrate to this country just embraced the culture and adapted as is appropriate. When I visit Muslim countries (Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, etc), me and my lady take care to adjust our behavior and dress to befit the country we are guests in. I expect the same of people who come to ours. Things like the Burka/Hijab, in my opinion, have no place in the UK as we oppose oppression of women, and it is culturally unacceptable to hide your face in public. I know I wouldn't be able to wear a balaclava around the town centre so why can someone wear a Burka!?!

Again, the medias 'pick-and-choose' coverage mentality molds peoples opinions without proper education.

I would urge you to read this:

http://englishdefenceleague.org/home/about-us

Before you judge a group of people based solely popular opinion and media output (sound familiar?)


*please note, I am not a supporter of the EDL, just common sense!
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  #105  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:06 PM
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Unfortunately, the EDL are victims of misdirected internal extremists just as much as Islam, Christianity, et al. The core of the EDL ideology is surprisingly anti-fascist if you took the time to read it with an unbiased mind and they have some core members who are of non-white origins... but there are a few idiots who appropriate the name and act in an extreme fashion - much like the idiots who blow themselves up or behead people in the street in the name of Islam. You cannot tar them all with the same brush in almost the same breath as saying you cannot judge all Islamics by the the lunatic few. The EDL is not the National Front, and they certainly are not Nazis - regardless of what a few 'members' claim to be.

No need to be scared of the English Flag, embrace it! We wouldn't be in such a mess if more people who migrate to this country just embraced the culture and adapted as is appropriate. When I visit Muslim countries (Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, etc), me and my lady take care to adjust our behavior and dress to befit the country we are guests in. I expect the same of people who come to ours. Things like the Burka/Hijab, in my opinion, have no place in the UK as we oppose oppression of women, and it is culturally unacceptable to hide your face in public. I know I wouldn't be able to wear a balaclava around the town centre so why can someone wear a Burka!?!

Again, the medias 'pick-and-choose' coverage mentality molds peoples opinions without proper education.

I would urge you to read this:

http://englishdefenceleague.org/home/about-us

Before you judge a group of people based solely popular opinion and media output (sound familiar?)


*please note, I am not a supporter of the EDL, just common sense!
Why do I feel comfortable flying the Welsh flag and singing the Welsh national anthem, in Welsh, when I am not comfortable with the English equivalents?
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  #106  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:09 PM
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...

Im coming close to the bone here on the forum rules, and forgive me if I transgress, but I'm trying to see DMC's point for what it is here.

( Grea is going to call me a bleeding heart liberal again, but.. ) where I agree is that I'd love to hear a liberal, moderate, modernist view from the part of the world under question here. I dont hear those voices. I dont see the people who represent the saner viewpoint anywhere. One could argue that the media doesnt find that very attractive which is why they arent visible, but somehow I think thats only partially true.

That said, the 'evil people' argument scares me to death. It has almost wiped out continents and entire races of people. It just doesnt work. The history of the world is proof. Just one small example of what the Third Riech did in Poland in1939 is probably much worse by comparision and it wasnt that long ago.

Theres got to be another way.




...
  #107  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Why do I feel comfortable flying the Welsh flag and singing the Welsh national anthem, in Welsh, when I am not comfortable with the English equivalents?

I am jealous of the Welsh for this very reason!

Fortunatly, in Wales, you still have a very strong sense of cultural identity and empowerment instilled from a young age. In England we are subconsciously taught that to be 'proud to be English' is to be inherently viewed as slightly racist. Ironically, the Welsh and the Scottish are horrifically racist towards the English. Hell, I saw souvenir mugs in Wales about hating the English... in plain sale in a shop! Also, there was the laughably ironic anti-racists chanting at the leader on the UKIP party to 'go back to England' after chasing him into a pub just last week!!!

We get told off for flying our flag at our homes, you are encouraged to.

I am English born and raised, (yet of split French, Dutch, Scottish and American heritage) but I am not proud to be English. Until my country gives me something to be proud of, that is unlikely to change. When the people finally grow some 'balls', vote in UKIP and proactively clean up this country under our own terms, then we'll be on our way to something. Australia have it right - if you don't like how we do things, **** off!
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  #108  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

My father summed it up for me in a simple way that even I could understand. He said, on one "side" you have people who value life more than death, and by gum they are convinced they are in the right. On the other "side" you have people who value death more than life who are even more convinced they are in the right. That's what we have to work with. No changing it. I just don't see that coming together anytime soon. That's just the way it is. The only thing you can do is to attempt to work with what you have. Acceptance. You can't have positive without negative, just like you can't have night without day. Life does not work that way. Life has to balance. For every 1.4367 ounces of positive in the universe, there has to be 1.4367 ounces of negative. It's just physics. Our Sun has exactly as much energy trying to blow it apart, as it has trying to collapse in on itself. It could not exist without perfect balance, and neither can people apparently.

If this titanic social issue were an electrical problem that I had to troubleshoot, this is what I'd do.

At some point, one side, for the sake of everyone, has to take it upon themselves, to "admit defeat" to the other "side". The energy between them has to be be neutralized by one side moving over to the other. The 2 sides HAVE to come together as one, there's no other way. What it takes is one side being more socially mature than the other, like a parent to a child. Like OK you guys win. What is it you want us to do? Only then is there a chance of actual talk and progress. Just for clarity, I'm not saying the one side has to do what the other side wants, the whole idea is to open a new dialogue that's never been explored before. I say let's throw the towel in this Jihad war and declare a winner. You guys win. We are not as passionate about life as you are about death. So can we move on? What can we do to work together? Hey that might not work but what we're doing isn't working either. It's a pipe dream.



Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Clearly, we are all insane lol.
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  #109  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:38 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

Might I also add that where I live, we are subject to a very recent influx of a particular race previously very small in the community (Nepalese). In the last 4 years our population has risen from approx 80,000 to 92'000, of which 94% of that extra 12,000 have been from Nepal. That's 1 in 9 people! Coupled with the fact that most of them are past working age and often in ill health, it has put a massive strain on the local services and economy. There is a lack of housing, school places and doctors appointments. It has had an extremely detrimental effect on the area and is the cause of a lot of unrest.

They have failed to integrate, more often than not learn none of our language, and put no money into the local economy. They spit all over the street, they defecate in the streets (we have a 4am cleanup team run by the council to clean certain 'hotspots') and their teenagers have a strange lack of value towards the locals (rapes, carrying knives, muggings). There have been many related hate crimes (from both sides!) of which none have been reported in the media, and have been actively covered up to keep tensions down.

Situations like this are breeding grounds for extremists and it is just another example of how things can come to a head very quickly, and fuels the extremist English view. Sometimes, people have good reason to be a little bit racist - it is unfortunate human nature.
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  #110  
Old 05-28-2013, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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I am jealous of the Welsh for this very reason!

Fortunatly, in Wales, you still have a very strong sense of cultural identity and empowerment instilled from a young age. In England we are subconsciously taught that to be 'proud to be English' is to be inherently viewed as slightly racist. Ironically, the Welsh and the Scottish are horrifically racist towards the English. Hell, I saw souvenir mugs in Wales about hating the English... in plain sale in a shop! Also, there was the laughably ironic anti-racists chanting at the leader on the UKIP party to 'go back to England' after chasing him into a pub just last week!!!

We get told off for flying our flag at our homes, you are encouraged to.

I am English born and raised, (yet of split French, Dutch, Scottish and American heritage) but I am not proud to be English. Until my country gives me something to be proud of, that is unlikely to change. When the people finally grow some 'balls', vote in UKIP and proactively clean up this country under our own terms, then we'll be on our way to something. Australia have it right - if you don't like how we do things, **** off!
We are neither encouraged nor discouraged to fly the Welsh flag. I'm half English, I was born there and I've lived in England most of my life, but the sight of the Welsh flag doesn't scare me the way the English one does these days.

I don't want to be sent back. Not to England, anyway. Too parochial.
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  #111  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:08 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Sometimes, people have good reason to be a little bit racist.
You've said it so much better than I ever could.

Dear God, I've seen everything now.
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Last edited by Magenta; 05-28-2013 at 11:15 PM. Reason: I rest my case.
  #112  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Sometimes, people have good reason to be a little bit racist - it is unfortunate human nature.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!! GROW UP
  #113  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:19 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Dear God, I've heard everything now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brittc89 View Post
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!! GROW UP

Honestly, in your heart of hearts do you reckon that say, in your town... within 4 years suddenly you couldn't get a doctors appointment for weeks, get a space in a dental surgery, couldn't get your kids into a school, had to avoid human excrement in the street, it became unsafe to walk through your parks even in the daytime, and your town centre becomes a ghost town due to the lack of money being spent in the area (and people from neighbouring towns stopping visiting) - all because of an influx of a particular race of people - you wouldn't become a little resentful of them? You'd just accept it and embrace the new lower standard of living you now have to endure?

If you say no, then I call BS.


Don't tell me to 'grow up', I'm a very accommodating guy, but sometimes your eyes are opened when it affects you directly. I was the victim of racial hatred IN LONDON FOR BEING WHITE when I lived in a predominantly black area, yet I didn't start hating them - I moved away and left them to it. There are areas of this town that are no-go areas for white, English people now. Even the 1st generation Indian and Pakistani and West Indian migrants that live here are sick of the Nepalese that have swamped the town. I am a grown up, because I can see it for what it is.
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  #114  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

Sorry. You can say what you like but there is never any excuse for racism. You may be unhappy with a perceived change in living conditions as a result of increased population but that is utterly separate to the region that these individuals are from. If you could live in a country where human rights are respected, the rule of law is generally well implemented, access to courts is relatively fair and the levels of political corruption are low - wouldn't you also move from a country where none of these examples were present? If the population had simply increased as a result of increased birth rates and decreased birth rates then you would have exactly the same problems with living conditions that you cite.

Yeah. You would move. You and I both know you would.

You don't counter racism with racism either. You counter it with embracing the cultural differences and opening a dialogue.
  #115  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Honestly, in your heart of hearts do you reckon that say, in your town... within 4 years suddenly you couldn't get a doctors appointment for weeks, get a space in a dental surgery, couldn't get your kids into a school, had to avoid human excrement in the street, it became unsafe to walk through your parks even in the daytime, and your town centre becomes a ghost town due to the lack of money being spent in the area (and people from neighbouring towns stopping visiting) - all because of an influx of a particular race of people - you wouldn't become a little resentful of them? You'd just accept it and embrace the new lower standard of living you now have to endure?

If you say no, then I call BS.
So what are you saying? Be honest. What do you think of people from Nepal? ALL OF THEM. They make your life worse, right? ALL OF THEM? That's all that matters, right? Because you're self-admittedly a racist, right? Draw your line in the sand bro and get out. Or is possibly the fault of anything else? YOur gov't can't cope? Or what? But really, it's the Nepalese people you don;t like. Change is evil.
  #116  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Sorry. You can say what you like but there is never any excuse for racism. You may be unhappy with a perceived change in living conditions as a result of increased population but that is utterly separate to the region that these individuals are from. If you could live in a country where human rights are respected, the rule of law is generally well implemented, access to courts is relatively fair and the levels of political corruption are low - wouldn't you also move from a country where none of these examples were present? If the population had simply increased as a result of increased birth rates and decreased birth rates then you would have exactly the same problems with living conditions that you cite.

Yeah. You would move. You and I both know you would.

You don't counter racism with racism either. You counter it with embracing the cultural differences and opening a dialogue.

You're saying that I'd have human sh*t on the paths around town? That there would be 2 dedicated days in my local surgery to Nepalese residents - where they have to employ translators (45,000 a year each by the way) - that you're not allowed an appointment on... if these people were English born? No. That is a direct byproduct of there being an influx of a particular race of people. Fact.

There was no sh*t on the streets before they flooded the area, there was no language restrictions on public services, and the population rise was approx 5% per year.

This isn't racism, it's honesty. Facts and honesty from someone who lives here (moved into the area about 10 years ago). I don't blame them for coming over - I blame the government for giving them an open un-controlled door in without prior thought as to spreading them about a bit to ease the strain on local services.

I have 6 Nepalese in the house next door to me, a 2 bedroom property, and they wash in the front garden, chase my cats and crap in the back garden. This is not an isolated incident.
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  #117  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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So what are you saying? Be honest. What do you think of people from Nepal? ALL OF THEM. They make your life worse, right? ALL OF THEM? That's all that matters, right? Because you're self-admittedly a racist, right? Draw your line in the sand bro and get out. Or is possibly the fault of anything else? YOur gov't can't cope? Or what? But really, it's the Nepalese people you don;t like. Change is evil.
Actually, I know a handful that are lovely people. The MAJORITY, however, are a nuisance and a drain. Sorry but its true. I'm not a racist, I'm a realist and say it how I see it. I grew up in a multilingual household, with friends from all over the world.

Whatever. I don't like the Nepalese people that have ruined my area. There, cards on the table.

Positive change is good, negative is evil.
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  #118  
Old 05-28-2013, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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You're saying that I'd have human sh*t on the paths around town? That there would be 2 dedicated days in my local surgery to Nepalese residents - where they have to employ translators (45,000 a year each by the way) - that you're not allowed an appointment on... if these people were English born? No. That is a direct byproduct of there being an influx of a particular race of people. Fact.

There was no sh*t on the streets before they flooded the area, there was no language restrictions on public services, and the population rise was approx 5% per year.

This isn't racism, it's honesty. Facts and honesty from someone who lives here (moved into the area about 10 years ago). I don't blame them for coming over - I blame the government for giving them an open un-controlled door in without prior thought as to spreading them about a bit to ease the strain on local services.

I have 6 Nepalese in the house next door to me, a 2 bedroom property, and they wash in the front garden, chase my cats and crap in the back garden. This is not an isolated incident.
Would you say the same thing if they were English? I suspect not.

Yes, there are plenty of arguments about controlling immigration that are not screaming and incoherent. In the grand scheme of things, two translators at 45,000 Pounds a year is nothing compared to the (so-called) 'native' population of Britain that likewise are a drain on local resources.

You are ignoring the fact that the established English population are also capable of acting in exactly the same manner you are ascribing to the immigrant community. Where I live, the immigrant population (a large Sikh minority) are anything but a drain on local resources and it is elsewhere that the problem lies. I am not painting with a wide brush to say that I have never once had any issue with an immigrant community beyond isolated incidents that have also occurred with non-immigrants. If my neighbours left crap in my garden, I'd contact the appropriate authorities - regardless of whether they were Nepalese, Irish, English or Chinese.

The fact that you feel the need to paint the 'Nepalese' with a wide brush and ascribing negative characteristics to an entire race of people speaks volumes about the credibility of your testimony.

You're not a racist yet you don't like 'The Nepalese'? Well, that's racism right there. If you said the same thing about 'Black People' or 'Nigerians' or 'Pakistanis' you would likewise be called racist. You are a racist.
  #119  
Old 05-29-2013, 12:04 AM
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Default Re: English drummer killed in attack.

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had to avoid human excrement in the street
You haven't been to Liverpool recently, have you?
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  #120  
Old 05-29-2013, 12:09 AM
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You haven't been to Liverpool recently, have you?
Genius. Absolute genius.
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