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  #1  
Old 04-01-2013, 01:22 AM
TheDrumster TheDrumster is offline
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Default Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Is anyone familiar with both Jo Jo Mayer's hand technique as he explains in "Secret Weapons For The Modern Drummer" and Bill Bachman's "Stick Technique"? Are the concepts similar?

I'm mostly self taught and I want to change my hand technique to become more efficient. But I don't want to start down a road, put in the reps, only to find out I should have gone down a different road..... Insights greatly appreciated!
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Jo Jo Mayer

Familiar with both. Both guys have flawless hands. Grab one, then grab the other......you're not gonna go wrong which ever one you choose.....and getting both will open up a world of possibilities.

Keeping with the "roads" motif, there are many roads to travel....as long as they all lead to Rome (which these two definitely do) you won't go wrong.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:37 AM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Trying not to sound like a broken record, but I can highly recommend Bill's new project (DrumWorkout) - here's my impression after just over 1 week of beta testing it:

Rudiments
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...d.php?t=105664

I'm familiar with Jojo's DVD - and it's a superb tutorial. But - and this is not taking down its quality in any way - it's structured more like an encyclopedia, having few exercises - that's just not the focus of this tutorial. And even the best encyclopedia (and that tutorial is considered the best one on hand technique) doesn't make you a great writer because to become one you need more. But... If you take the motions/techniques that Jojo is demonstrating and get them perfectly down and up to lightspeed even 'just' stucking to binary/ternary rhythms (16th/32nd, and the triplet versions) there's no doubt you'd have phenomenal hand technique and should be able to do 99% you'd ever need.

I don't have Bill's Stick Control book, and I 'discovered' Bill's tutorial work only recently. (I got his Rudimental Beats DVD lately, plus that beta testing of his new site.) His new project is what would be perfectly complementing Jojo's DVD as you're provided great exercises that can be instantly applied in your playing. On his DVD Bill is focusing on 12 rudiments - the 'gateway rudiments' - that cover all hand motions related to rudiments you ever need. Once learned you should be able to pull off any new rudiment. And those exercises aren't merely those rudiments in their pure form plus explanations of how to play them correctly but are presented in an efficient and varying way. E.g. the triple stroke roll is presented in a 16th context, and there's constantly R vs. L hand lead switch throughout all the exercises - something I've been doing myself, for better development of my weaker (L) hand.

So overall I agree with PFOG - no prob applying both concepts. There shouldn't be any 'incompatibility issues'.

BTW, I edited the thread title to make the aspect of this thread clearer. Hope you don't mind.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

I bought Jojo's dvd... it goes for 4 hours or something but it's more like an encyclopedia and less practical. Tommy Igoe's great hands was 10000x better because there are play alongs. I haven't tried Bill Bachmans but I'm interested in it.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:04 AM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Jojo!!! Bachman is good, but he is stiff and doesn't SWING. Jojo does it all.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:38 PM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

I take skype lessons from Bill and if you are asking who is the better teacher then Bill Bachman easily. Jojo is a great player and I have watched his DVD a while back, it did nothing for my technique.

However when I saw the Bill Bachman clinic videos on youtube my hands had changed forever after like one week (this was before I took lessons with him).

I was self tought for 2 years before I took the skype lessons and there were kind of 2 milestones during that time that really changed my hands. The first was when I watched the great hands of a lifetime video and the second one when I saw the bill bachman clinic on youtube.

I don't know what the deal is with jojo's video, it's not a teaching DVD so whats the point really?
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:43 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

I'm also quite familiar with both, and I think that Arky nailed it. Nothing I could really add. He's exactly right. I guess one thing I would say is that I don't think there's any "versus." Their materials are accomplishing different things, but where there's overlap, there's mostly agreement. Work with both. Both are great!
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:45 PM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
Jojo!!! Bachman is good, but he is stiff and doesn't SWING. Jojo does it all.
Bachman is not stiff I can tell you that. The number one thing he teaches is having loose hands.

The reason it looks stiff I think is because of two things. He uses more wrist then fingers when playing slower which means the butt of the stick is closer to his palm but it never ever touches the palm except for when playing downstrokes.

The second reason it looks stiff is because of the strict stick heights on accents, downstrokes and taps.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:07 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

I'm familiar with both. A bit more with the Jojo dvd.

I think either way, you should get a teacher who understands all these things and work on it with him. Jojo doesn't stay long on the beginner stuff so depending on where you're at with your hand technique, you might feel lost quite fast. Bill's book starts a bit easier I find and has much more exercises in it whereas Jojo explains more how to it a drum with a lot of different possibilities.

I would definitely recommend that you get both books. And a teacher. I do the Skype lessons if you're ever interested.

www.danielbedarddrums.com/en/
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:47 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDrummer View Post
Jojo is a great player and I have watched his DVD a while back, it did nothing for my technique.
??
A DVD is an innocent silver disc, it can't do anything for your technique!
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:05 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDrummer View Post
I take skype lessons from Bill and if you are asking who is the better teacher then Bill Bachman easily. Jojo is a great player and I have watched his DVD a while back, it did nothing for my technique.

However when I saw the Bill Bachman clinic videos on youtube my hands had changed forever after like one week (this was before I took lessons with him).

I was self tought for 2 years before I took the skype lessons and there were kind of 2 milestones during that time that really changed my hands. The first was when I watched the great hands of a lifetime video and the second one when I saw the bill bachman clinic on youtube.

I don't know what the deal is with jojo's video, it's not a teaching DVD so whats the point really?
His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.
Are you aware that he's adding the arm motion wherever it makes sense? That is, to reduce impact on the wrists and save energy at higher to super high playing speed? Did you ever check out one of his improvisations? Well my ears couldn't make out anything 'rigid' - quite the opposite, he has an unbelievably easy and relaxed flow.

That arm motion you're talking of is exactly what has helped me the last few days... to get the 6-stroke roll @ 130 bpm (32nd notes). Do I feel like I'm playing in a smart way, utilizing all motions that make sense (including the pumping arm motion so your upper body is contributing to the playing and actually reducing the stress on the wrists)? Yes.

Subscribe to his new project for a single month, check out a few of his videos, play along to this and you'll see for yourself whether Bill's 'philosophy' makes sense.

Also, his tight thumb grip (leaving no gap between the thumb and index finger) makes perfect sense, too - providing more control over the stick, to help controlling rebound and/or stopping the stick whenever needed. Personally I haven't identified anything in Bill's technique that doesn't make sense - admittedly, I'm not too sophisticated in drumming, with my 2.5 yrs into it but I'm sure others can confirm what I'm saying.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Coming back to the TS' question: JoJo is an internationally known drum "star" and technique guru, and has been for many years.

Bill is a very very good teacher.

JoJo's DVD is definitely a teaching tool but you have to already know the free stroke and the Moeller technique in order to really benefit from it. While it is possible to learn these critical techniques by DVD, in my opinion, you will definitely miss the full impact without a live teacher.

To learn more about the free stroke, get Dom Famularo's book, It's Your Move. It is not a collection of articles; it is an actual book and it is about the free stroke and the Moeller.

Learn this with a teacher, really. Bill and Dom both do Skype lessons. I have studied with Dom for many years and cannot recommend him enough but pick who you want.

A DVD cannot give you feedback. You need feedback!

After you have mastered these techniques you can begin to use DVDs like JoJo's for full effect.

I hope this purist and traditionalist approach makes sense to you.

Best regards, and good luck,
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:31 PM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
??
A DVD is an innocent silver disc, it can't do anything for your technique!
Great hands of a lifetime is an innocent disc, did wonders for my technique. Jojo's video just show how the technique is done but there are no exercises to help you or any warnings about what not to do etc. It's not a very good teaching video. More like an interesting watch for a drummer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.
His wrists are not straight? What do you mean, like in german grip? He avoids german grip because it's a disadvantageous grip for finger use (only grip he doesn't recommend practicing). Is that what you are saying?

His arms are going downhill because at downstrokes bill advocates that the stick should point down and not parallel to the drum so the stick doesn't bounce back as much. He wants to stop the stick as fast as possible so he can play loose taps as fast as possible in between downstrokes, up and full strokes. Really there is nothing about bills technique that doesn't make sense to me. It looks stiff but it's very loose.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by EvilDrummer View Post
I don't know what the deal is with jojo's video, it's not a teaching DVD so whats the point really?
I've been at it for over 25 years mate. It taught me plenty. If anyone thinks that Jojo's is not a "teaching dvd" they're not paying attention.....pure and simple.

No, it's not like Igoe's excellent dvd, that is presented in an entirely different format and is more akin to getting a beginner up and playing along with him. But it's very much a teaching aid.......one of the most comprehensive I've come across and a most valuable one at that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed.
Very much a "form over function" argument you're making here mate. I take it you haven't seen much of his playing? Anyone who's seen Bill express himself on a drum kit will know that his methods work very effectively.....no ifs, whats or buts about it.

Dunno about you guys, but I'm far more interested in what somebody says on a kit......how they look as they go about saying it runs a very distant second. Provided they're not leading you up a path that will cause long term damage, the argument is somewhat of a moot point really.

Those of you who spend all their time worrying about hands going past parallel or pinkies floating off sticks, at the expense of the actual expression, are missing out on so much. You risk getting bogged down and missing the forest for the trees. That'd be such a shame as the "end product" is what it's all about. There are a million ways to get there.....who really cares, as long as you get there?
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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I've been at it for over 25 years mate.
While I totally agree with what you said, you must be mistaken here, as the DVD
came out in 2007!
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:07 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

As I've gathered, Bill comes from a marching/drum line background. This means a few things:
1) basically, he's supposed to look militaristic and rigid in most of his body. It's a ruse, though. You can't play that stuff if your actual grip is not honed and loose. They pay a lot of attention to this, because each member of the line is supposed to look exactly the same. Nobody's shoulder should be moving unless a huge whip stroke is called for or something.

2) "Stiff" playing could mean a few things... I think you're talking about how "perfect" bill's playing tends to be... Again, I think this comes from his background. In a line, every note has to be exactly perfect and in time with everyone else or it will stand out much more than in a band situation. When you're at such a level of "perfect" playing as Bill, it ends up coming out when playing almost anything. Peart is (I feel) another example of this. It's very "stiff" regimented playing, but I don't think you'll find many folks that wouldn't call him amazing.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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While I totally agree with what you said, you must be mistaken here, as the DVD
came out in 2007!
Ha!! No mate......miscommunicated.

I meant it to read as: I've been playing for over 25 years and have still managed to learn plenty from the dvd. It's definitely a viable learning tool, whether you've been playing for two years or 25. I didn't mean that I've been working from the dvd for 25 years. :-)
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:53 AM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

LOL - ok I get it now!!
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
Jojo!!! Bachman is good, but he is stiff and doesn't SWING. Jojo does it all.

"Bachman is not stiff I can tell you that. The number one thing he teaches is having loose hands.

"The reason it looks stiff I think is because of two things. He uses more wrist then fingers when playing slower which means the butt of the stick is closer to his palm but it never ever touches the palm except for when playing downstrokes.

The second reason it looks stiff is because of the strict stick heights on accents, downstrokes and taps." Evil Drummer



"His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed". SEVNT7



I stand by this original posts. I even said, "Bachman is good". I like Bill Bachman. I just think Jojo's approach is better for Drum Set, Swinging and Endurance. The tightness and stiffness I point to is not in his hands, it's in his shoulders. By holding your elbows out to your side, away from your body, you have to use your shoulder, neck and upper back muscles to keep your arms (elbows) away from your body. This causes unnecessary tension. When not using shoulders and upper arms to motivate the stick to the drumhead, your elbow should be relaxed by your side, not held out away from your body. Bachman almost always has a set point away from his body with his elbows, weather he is using "Moeller" type arm motions or not. When he Does use "Moeller" his elbows do not complete there path to his side to relax after initial whip stroke, but stop short to his set point away from his body. That also causes stiffness in the "Moeller" tradition. Stiff is stiff.

I see this elbow set out position problematic and coming from two basic areas.

1- "Modern Corp Technique" which is, what Bill's approach is.
2- Snare, too close to the body



"His wrists are not straight? What do you mean, like in german grip? He avoids german grip because it's a disadvantageous grip for finger use (only grip he doesn't recommend practicing). Is that what you are saying?

"His arms are going downhill because at downstrokes bill advocates that the stick should point down and not parallel to the drum so the stick doesn't bounce back as much. He wants to stop the stick as fast as possible so he can play loose taps as fast as possible in between downstrokes, up and full strokes. Really there is nothing about bills technique that doesn't make sense to me. It looks stiff but it's very loose." Evil Drummer



"Are you aware that he's adding the arm motion wherever it makes sense? That is, to reduce impact on the wrists and save energy at higher to super high playing speed? Did you ever check out one of his improvisations? Well my ears couldn't make out anything 'rigid' - quite the opposite, he has an unbelievably easy and relaxed flow.

That arm motion you're talking of is exactly what has helped me the last few days... to get the 6-stroke roll @ 130 bpm (32nd notes). Do I feel like I'm playing in a smart way, utilizing all motions that make sense (including the pumping arm motion so your upper body is contributing to the playing and actually reducing the stress on the wrists)? Yes.

Subscribe to his new project for a single month, check out a few of his videos, play along to this and you'll see for yourself whether Bill's 'philosophy' makes sense.

Also, his tight thumb grip (leaving no gap between the thumb and index finger) makes perfect sense, too - providing more control over the stick, to help controlling rebound and/or stopping the stick whenever needed. Personally I haven't identified anything in Bill's technique that doesn't make sense - admittedly, I'm not too sophisticated in drumming, with my 2.5 yrs into it but I'm sure others can confirm what I'm saying. " Arky



His wrists do not come to a flush angle with his arm for many reasons.

1- His arms are angled down at impact. Snare too low.
2- His elbows are held out to there side.
3- More wrist pronation than arm turn
4- His elbows do not relax or finish to his side after the whip stroke "Moeller"


Jim Chapin was very adamant about several things that are in relation to these issues. Everything must stay relaxed from then neck down, including the shoulders. Wrist pronation is unnecessary and causes undo tension in the forearms. Fingers in "German" position DO work well . But you have to be able to open your hand naturally, when your hand and arm are down. (Ala Gordy Knudson, Open close/push-pull techniques) This does not work if you have the hand and arm positions described above.
Also, just because you are not always going to use a "Moeller" style technique all the time, these principles in relation to tightness and stiffness still apply.

Having your hand in "American" grip in my opinion is one of the biggest causes of undo tension. The closed gap idea with the forefinger and thumb ("Iron Thumb" Jim Chapin ) for control, comes from necessity, not choice. As there is nothing on top of the stick like the thumb in "French" grip., I Say HOOEY. If you use "German" grip with your arm angle correct, snare height at least as high as your belt line, extend your hand away from your arm plane, your fingers can be used very easily, and your whole hand is on top of the stick. This means no necessity to hold, or squeeze the thumb and forefinger. Jojo's video show this.

As to Bill's actual playing, I like it. He is a great and superior Corp player. But on a drum set it sounds to stiff to me. I can't do some of the Corp stuff that he does, but then again I don't really practice that stuff. Neil Peart also sounds stiff to me and does not swing ( Buddy Rich Memorial Concert vids) Have you seen these. I like Neil's work with Rush. But he sounds like a High School kid with good time when he plays Jazz or Blues Shuffles. He too is from the school of holding the elbows out to the side, peculiar.

I am a Drum Set Player and Teacher by trade. Iv'e been playing drums for 41 years and been teaching for over 30 years. I am also a "Moeller" expert ???, well, that's for someone else to say. Iv'e been studying "Moeller" since High School and I'm 53, That's a while.

I know this is not a "Moeller" thread. But the principles it teaches are universal in getting the sticks to do what you want them to do, WITHOUT tension and tightness.

I think Bachman's teaching methods are great. and his approach to rudiments is cool. But I want to learn from a guy that sounds and plays relaxed and free of tension, that's Jojo. I also think Tommy Igoe's approach to over all playing is more natural and relaxed. Have you guys heard him play Swing?


I am not here to make enemies, I'm here to try to learn and help when I can. No offense ever meant or implied......have a Great Drumming Day .......T Moran (SEVNT7)
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Last edited by SEVNT7; 04-07-2013 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDrummer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
??
A DVD is an innocent silver disc, it can't do anything for your technique!
Great hands of a lifetime is an innocent disc, did wonders for my technique.
I think the point here is that the DVD itself did nothing for your technique. It canít. Itís basically a piece of plastic.

Itís practicing that helped your technique.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDrummer View Post
Jojo's video just show how the technique is done but there are no exercises to help you or any warnings about what not to do etc. It's not a very good teaching video.
I havenít watched it in a while, but Iím pretty sure that there are lots of exercises in there, and thereís definitely a few donít-do-it-this-way bits.

Jojoís video is excellent. I highly recommend it. (Of course, I also highly recommend having lots of other sources of info.)
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by Anduin View Post
I think the point here is that the DVD itself did nothing for your technique. It canít. Itís basically a piece of plastic.

Itís practicing that helped your technique.




I havenít watched it in a while, but Iím pretty sure that there are lots of exercises in there, and thereís definitely a few donít-do-it-this-way bits.

Jojoís video is excellent. I highly recommend it. (Of course, I also highly recommend having lots of other sources of info.)
Thank you for the voice of reason.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Well, to be clearer: Imagine all the drumming greats now in their fifties or so. When they were young and got their musical and technical chops together
they had NOTHING, no youtube, no educational or performance videos. But still they got to the point there are now.

Well it's great that we have all of that nowadays, but sometimes I actually wish we hadn't, because with all the information overkill it's hard to actually focus,
and it's harder to actually really work things! In the early days when young drummers had 10 vinyl records at home, and that was it, they listened to it
forwards and backwards, analyzed it, played along, figured everything out. That way they really learned, they really internalized and connected.

Today we can jump from one video to the next, from one song to another in no time, but do we actually learn more? Do we learn better? Is it more profound?
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Well, to be clearer: Imagine all the drumming greats now in their fifties or so. When they were young and got their musical and technical chops together
they had NOTHING, no youtube, no educational or performance videos. But still they got to the point there are now.

Well it's great that we have all of that nowadays, but sometimes I actually wish we hadn't, because with all the information overkill it's hard to actually focus,
and it's harder to actually really work things! In the early days when young drummers had 10 vinyl records at home, and that was it, they listened to it
forwards and backwards, analyzed it, played along, figured everything out. That way they really learned, they really internalized and connected.

Today we can jump from one video to the next, from one song to another in no time, but do we actually learn more? Do we learn better? Is it more profound?
Excellent point.

There is an overwhelming amount of material out there today. Books, DVDs, websites, etc.

Reed's Syncopation, for example. If one were so inclined, could use only that book in every conceivable way instead of working at exercises through a stack of books simply for the sake of doing the exercises.

Recently I was trying to figure out a long term plan for going through a few books. Really digging into John Riley's Art of Bop Drumming and his Master Drummer DVD. Mr. Riley even suggests something along the line of your point. I couldn't find it in the book but I'm pretty sure he did say it somewhere. Not to just learn one exercise and move on to the next. Really internalize the lick, make it your own, move it around the kit, add rests, etc.

Obviously, the same thing applies to hands. For my hands, I have been digging into Tommy Igoe's Great Hands DVD. There are several great exercises in that DVD material (57 page pdf). I've tried applying some of the exercises to the kit. It adds a whole new level of difficulty.

I've tried to limit myself to about 2 books at a time. I just bought Jojo's DVD recently and agree that there is a ton of great information in there but not a lot of ways to apply it. As PFOG said, you can definitely learn something from it but I think it depends on what you are trying to learn.

If you don't have a vast knowledge of all the grips, yeah go pick it up Secret Weapons. Do you want to know how to get as fast as Jojo? Then you should probably pick up something else.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:24 PM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Well, to be clearer: Imagine all the drumming greats now in their fifties or so. When they were young and got their musical and technical chops together
they had NOTHING, no youtube, no educational or performance videos. But still they got to the point there are now.

Well it's great that we have all of that nowadays, but sometimes I actually wish we hadn't, because with all the information overkill it's hard to actually focus,
and it's harder to actually really work things! In the early days when young drummers had 10 vinyl records at home, and that was it, they listened to it
forwards and backwards, analyzed it, played along, figured everything out. That way they really learned, they really internalized and connected.

Today we can jump from one video to the next, from one song to another in no time, but do we actually learn more? Do we learn better? Is it more profound?
Right on Matthias! The drumming greats used to go see drummers play in person - on the bandstand - and figure out what they were doing. Then yes, they'd go home. slow down their LPs and listen.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Well, to be clearer: Imagine all the drumming greats now in their fifties or so. When they were young and got their musical and technical chops together
they had NOTHING, no youtube, no educational or performance videos. But still they got to the point there are now.

Well it's great that we have all of that nowadays, but sometimes I actually wish we hadn't, because with all the information overkill it's hard to actually focus,
and it's harder to actually really work things! In the early days when young drummers had 10 vinyl records at home, and that was it, they listened to it
forwards and backwards, analyzed it, played along, figured everything out. That way they really learned, they really internalized and connected.

Today we can jump from one video to the next, from one song to another in no time, but do we actually learn more? Do we learn better? Is it more profound?
This is really important-- and it really applies to anyone who matured musically before the tsunami of free media that came after Napster and YouTube. Can't go to deep into it without derailing the thread, but I think players now and then are/were subject to accidents of talent-- then you had to be talented to make up for the lack of information, now you need it to recognize the important/good/useful things out of the glut of information. Or to guess correctly how far you need to go with things like, say, Mayer's video, relative to all of the other important things there are to do as a musician.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
Well, to be clearer: Imagine all the drumming greats now in their fifties or so. When they were young and got their musical and technical chops together
they had NOTHING, no youtube, no educational or performance videos. But still they got to the point there are now.

Well it's great that we have all of that nowadays, but sometimes I actually wish we hadn't, because with all the information overkill it's hard to actually focus,
and it's harder to actually really work things! In the early days when young drummers had 10 vinyl records at home, and that was it, they listened to it
forwards and backwards, analyzed it, played along, figured everything out. That way they really learned, they really internalized and connected.

Today we can jump from one video to the next, from one song to another in no time, but do we actually learn more? Do we learn better? Is it more profound?
This is one of those things I did everyday. Album after album. It taught me 8-12 tunes at a time because you had to play the whole side of the "Vinyl Disc" or keep getting up to walk across the room and pick up the needle. If you placed your drums next to your record player, it would skip the album. So, you had to do it with your "Stereo" on the other side of the room. Put on "Urban Renewal " or "Roar Of 74' " and go to town.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:04 PM
EvilDrummer EvilDrummer is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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I think the point here is that the DVD itself did nothing for your technique. It canít. Itís basically a piece of plastic.

Itís practicing that helped your technique.
Are you serious with this comment?

I think Jojo is superior as a player on the drum set and Bill is superior on quads naturally.

However the question was which approach is the best and that depends on what you mean. If you are asking about which method will give the best end result then it's a tricky question. If you are asking which way is the fastest most efficient way to a good hand technique then Bill's by far. There is nothing stopping you to adapt your technique into something like jojo's after going through the bill bachman method.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
But I don't want to start down a road, put in the reps, only to find out I should have gone down a different road..
It doesn't matter, whichever you'll actually practice will work.
Another thumbs up for Igoe and JoJo. I'm not familiar with Bill, but for twenty scoots a month to practice rudiments to play hundred dollar weddings, I probably won't ever be.

There is no grand super-scheme to any of this, just learn your rudiments and dynamics so you can speak with your instrument and keep good time, and you're good to go. Practice enough to keep them fresh.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:34 PM
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BillBachman BillBachman is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Hey guys, thanks a lot for the kind words (for the most part :) ). I'm always happy to see when my books/lessons/drumworkout.com and such are helping people out. I saw this thread last week, but have been too slammed teaching/rehearsing/gigging to check in. I should be doing my taxes right now, but here I am!

I always start my first lesson with people with a disclaimer like this: "Realize that what I'm telling you technically is almost always geared towards exactly what you are currently playing with a certain technique at a certain tempo and to please avoid absolutes. Virtually every potential "rule" I tell you will get broken down the road doing something else. Plus, sometimes I'm making you over-do something a certain way such that you'll maximize the concept and then we'll reel it in as step 2." So, only sometimes for certain techniques/situations do I teach things like "more wrist & less fingers", "no gap between thumb and hand", "make the stick heights strict", "sticks point downhill" and such. Other times you'll want to do the opposite.

People love oversimplified rules as if technique were a "one size fits all" type of thing. There are many different tools for different jobs. On that note, I don't differentiate between marching technique and drumset technique, but instead believe in having complete technique which makes all the options available. Old school snare drumming did tend to be quite rigid and that style makes me cringe. (Quad players always have had more flow than the snare guys anyway.) The concept of rudimental guys guys being rigid and drumset guys flowing is now pretty much completely reversed, the drumset guys I get as students almost always have way tighter hands than the rudimental guys (and I've only ever had one student who didn't play with too much tension coming in the door in my nearly 20 years of teaching).

Also, my book Stick Technique isn't just "a collection of articles", the first 1/3rd of it is my technique opus written for the book and then there are all the chapters which started as articles (in an organized series) which were then improved and adapted for the book format. So far every bit of feedback I've seen on it has been overwhelmingly positive which makes me happy.

As for "playing stiff and not swinging", I do what I can and am certainly not happy with everything out there on youtube. Aside from occasional nerves, I believe part of it is that many have no idea what it takes technically to pull that stuff off. There are some techniques where the upper arms/shoulders need to do work in order to make it easy on the hands--playing quads for instance can require a lot of upper-body muscles. Plus, if you watch me walk down the street my shoulders tend to look like they're up a bit and my arms stick out a bit like a weight-lifter's. It's just the way the Lord made me!

Here are a couple videos with some playing that I'm really happy with you guys may want to check out:

"Stand" -my old band cutting a demo in the studio (dig the half time shuffle in the bridge)

"Random Love Song" -a couple friends and I creating a tune on the spot for potential TV placement

"Pad solo" -this is just a rudimetal improv on a pad

OK, back to work! happy drumming, Bill
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by BillBachman View Post
Hey guys, thanks a lot for the kind words (for the most part :) ). I'm always happy to see when my books/lessons/drumworkout.com and such are helping people out. I saw this thread last week, but have been too slammed teaching/rehearsing/gigging to check in. I should be doing my taxes right now, but here I am!

I always start my first lesson with people with a disclaimer like this: "Realize that what I'm telling you technically is almost always geared towards exactly what you are currently playing with a certain technique at a certain tempo and to please avoid absolutes. Virtually every potential "rule" I tell you will get broken down the road doing something else. Plus, sometimes I'm making you over-do something a certain way such that you'll maximize the concept and then we'll reel it in as step 2." So, only sometimes for certain techniques/situations do I teach things like "more wrist & less fingers", "no gap between thumb and hand", "make the stick heights strict", "sticks point downhill" and such. Other times you'll want to do the opposite.

People love oversimplified rules as if technique were a "one size fits all" type of thing. There are many different tools for different jobs. On that note, I don't differentiate between marching technique and drumset technique, but instead believe in having complete technique which makes all the options available. Old school snare drumming did tend to be quite rigid and that style makes me cringe. (Quad players always have had more flow than the snare guys anyway.) The concept of rudimental guys guys being rigid and drumset guys flowing is now pretty much completely reversed, the drumset guys I get as students almost always have way tighter hands than the rudimental guys (and I've only ever had one student who didn't play with too much tension coming in the door in my nearly 20 years of teaching).

Also, my book Stick Technique isn't just "a collection of articles", the first 1/3rd of it is my technique opus written for the book and then there are all the chapters which started as articles (in an organized series) which were then improved and adapted for the book format. So far every bit of feedback I've seen on it has been overwhelmingly positive which makes me happy.

As for "playing stiff and not swinging", I do what I can and am certainly not happy with everything out there on youtube. Aside from occasional nerves, I believe part of it is that many have no idea what it takes technically to pull that stuff off. There are some techniques where the upper arms/shoulders need to do work in order to make it easy on the hands--playing quads for instance can require a lot of upper-body muscles. Plus, if you watch me walk down the street my shoulders tend to look like they're up a bit and my arms stick out a bit like a weight-lifter's. It's just the way the Lord made me!

Here are a couple videos with some playing that I'm really happy with you guys may want to check out:

"Stand" -my old band cutting a demo in the studio (dig the half time shuffle in the bridge)

"Random Love Song" -a couple friends and I creating a tune on the spot for potential TV placement

"Pad solo" -this is just a rudimetal improv on a pad

OK, back to work! happy drumming, Bill
Thanks for posting Bill.

You know I do like your playing, especially your Quads, AMAZING, I just like a looser approach to Drum Set. If you read all my posts regarding you or this subject, or "Moeller" based issues. (Moeller- Witch Grip? thread for ex..) You'll see that I'm not an either or guy. I love all types of technique, and try not to be blind to the fact that one type does not work for everything or everybody.

Thanks for your enthusiastic educational attitude, you serve the public well.......Have a great drumming day........T Moran
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Last edited by SEVNT7; 04-28-2013 at 12:01 AM.
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  #32  
Old 04-09-2013, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Sure thing Sevent7. Did you watch those videos? That may be a side of my playing you hadn't seen.

I'm plugging away at all kinds of projects over here and drumworkout.com is extremely close to full launch. It's always really exciting when something goes from an idea to fruition (and a heck of a lot of work).
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:39 AM
Paramac66 Paramac66 is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Hi SEVNT7, I know what you mean when you say Bill is Stiff and I can agree with you.. I also can see why people are defending him saying he's not stiff... You're talking about that real loose Jack Dejohnette, Elvin Jones, Tony looseness that Bill doesn't possess..Bill is real good but you're spot on with what you're saying. What you're observing is a much more subtle difference and it's hard to see unless one knows both worlds or at least the bebop technique world.. I know this personally because I didn't get into that looseness until I was in my 30s and started checking out the be bop guys and then the 60s guys I mentioned.. It's hard to see and know that looseness you're describing.. Personally I had to have it pointed out to me over and over by guys like Ralph Peterson, Ian Froman and others and prior to that, I had pretty dam good technique but not that looseness swinging technique, touch, finesse, loose open sound you're talking about..

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
"Bachman is not stiff I can tell you that. The number one thing he teaches is having loose hands.

"The reason it looks stiff I think is because of two things. He uses more wrist then fingers when playing slower which means the butt of the stick is closer to his palm but it never ever touches the palm except for when playing downstrokes.

The second reason it looks stiff is because of the strict stick heights on accents, downstrokes and taps." Evil Drummer



"His shoulders and sound are what I'm talking about. His elbows are almost always held out from his side ( Shoulder tightness). His wrists are not straight at impact. His arms are going downhill at impact, past parallel to the ground. All things that are signs and causes of tightness or rigidity. These types of habits also make sound ridged and very hard to flow and swing relaxed". SEVNT7



I stand by this original posts. I even said, "Bachman is good". I like Bill Bachman. I just think Jojo's approach is better for Drum Set, Swinging and Endurance. The tightness and stiffness I point to is not in his hands, it's in his shoulders. By holding your elbows out to your side, away from your body, you have to use your shoulder, neck and upper back muscles to keep your arms (elbows) away from your body. This causes unnecessary tension. When not using shoulders and upper arms to motivate the stick to the drumhead, your elbow should be relaxed by your side, not held out away from your body. Bachman almost always has a set point away from his body with his elbows, weather he is using "Moeller" type arm motions or not. When he Does use "Moeller" his elbows do not complete there path to his side to relax after initial whip stroke, but stop short to his set point away from his body. That also causes stiffness in the "Moeller" tradition. Stiff is stiff.

I see this elbow set out position problematic and coming from two basic areas.

1- "Modern Corp Technique" which is, what Bill's approach is.
2- Snare, too close to the body



"His wrists are not straight? What do you mean, like in german grip? He avoids german grip because it's a disadvantageous grip for finger use (only grip he doesn't recommend practicing). Is that what you are saying?

"His arms are going downhill because at downstrokes bill advocates that the stick should point down and not parallel to the drum so the stick doesn't bounce back as much. He wants to stop the stick as fast as possible so he can play loose taps as fast as possible in between downstrokes, up and full strokes. Really there is nothing about bills technique that doesn't make sense to me. It looks stiff but it's very loose." Evil Drummer



"Are you aware that he's adding the arm motion wherever it makes sense? That is, to reduce impact on the wrists and save energy at higher to super high playing speed? Did you ever check out one of his improvisations? Well my ears couldn't make out anything 'rigid' - quite the opposite, he has an unbelievably easy and relaxed flow.

That arm motion you're talking of is exactly what has helped me the last few days... to get the 6-stroke roll @ 130 bpm (32nd notes). Do I feel like I'm playing in a smart way, utilizing all motions that make sense (including the pumping arm motion so your upper body is contributing to the playing and actually reducing the stress on the wrists)? Yes.

Subscribe to his new project for a single month, check out a few of his videos, play along to this and you'll see for yourself whether Bill's 'philosophy' makes sense.

Also, his tight thumb grip (leaving no gap between the thumb and index finger) makes perfect sense, too - providing more control over the stick, to help controlling rebound and/or stopping the stick whenever needed. Personally I haven't identified anything in Bill's technique that doesn't make sense - admittedly, I'm not too sophisticated in drumming, with my 2.5 yrs into it but I'm sure others can confirm what I'm saying. " Arky



His wrists do not come to a flush angle with his arm for many reasons.

1- His arms are angled down at impact. Snare too low.
2- His elbows are held out to there side.
3- More wrist pronation than arm turn
4- His elbows do not relax or finish to his side after the whip stroke "Moeller"


Jim Chapin was very adamant about several things that are in relation to these issues. Everything must stay relaxed from then neck down, including the shoulders. Wrist pronation is unnecessary and causes undo tension in the forearms. Fingers in "German" position DO work well . But you have to be able to open your hand naturally, when your hand and arm are down. (Ala Gordy Knudson, Open close/push-pull techniques) This does not work if you have the hand and arm positions described above.
Also, just because you are not always going to use a "Moeller" style technique all the time, these principles in relation to tightness and stiffness still apply.

Having your hand in "American" grip in my opinion is one of the biggest causes of undo tension. The closed gap idea with the forefinger and thumb ("Iron Thumb" Jim Chapin ) for control, comes from necessity, not choice. As there is nothing on top of the stick like the thumb in "French" grip., I Say HOOEY. If you use "German" grip with your arm angle correct, snare height at least as high as your belt line, extend your hand away from your arm plane, your fingers can be used very easily, and your whole hand is on top of the stick. This means no necessity to hold, or squeeze the thumb and forefinger. Jojo's video show this.

As to Bill's actual playing, I like it. He is a great and superior Corp player. But on a drum set it sounds to stiff to me. I can't do some of the Corp stuff that he does, but then again I don't really practice that stuff. Neil Peart also sounds stiff to me and does not swing ( Buddy Rich Memorial Concert vids) Have you seen these. I like Neil's work with Rush. But he sounds like a High School kid with good time when he plays Jazz or Blues Shuffles. He too is from the school of holding the elbows out to the side, peculiar.

I am a Drum Set Player and Teacher by trade. Iv'e been playing drums for 41 years and been teaching for over 30 years. I am also a "Moeller" expert ???, well, that's for someone else to say. Iv'e been studying "Moeller" since High School and I'm 53, That's a while.

I know this is not a "Moeller" thread. But the principles it teaches are universal in getting the sticks to do what you want them to do, WITHOUT tension and tightness.

I think Bachman's teaching methods are great. and his approach to rudiments is cool. But I want to learn from a guy that sounds and plays relaxed and free of tension, that's Jojo. I also think Tommy Igoe's approach to over all playing is more natural and relaxed. Have you guys heard him play Swing?


I am not here to make enemies, I'm here to try to learn and help when I can. No offense ever meant or implied......have a Great Drumming Day .......T Moran (SEVNT7)
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  #34  
Old 04-21-2013, 01:37 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by brady View Post
I've tried to limit myself to about 2 books at a time. I just bought Jojo's DVD recently and agree that there is a ton of great information in there but not a lot of ways to apply it. As PFOG said, you can definitely learn something from it but I think it depends on what you are trying to learn.

If you don't have a vast knowledge of all the grips, yeah go pick it up Secret Weapons. Do you want to know how to get as fast as Jojo? Then you should probably pick up something else.
There's many different areas to study, Secret Weapons was very focused on technique obviously. I would say this DVD is not for people, esp. intermediates who want easy answers on how to develop fast and controlled hands. Also, it's more of a distraction (at least the "fun" stuff) :), or misguided lead-on to anyone who doesn't have a reasonable background and fundamentals.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:04 PM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillBachman View Post
"Stand" -my old band cutting a demo in the studio (dig the half time shuffle in the bridge)

"Random Love Song" -a couple friends and I creating a tune on the spot for potential TV placement

"Pad solo" -this is just a rudimetal improv on a pad

OK, back to work! happy drumming, Bill
Hi Bill, I finally managed to see your videos. Nice work! I liked the two tunes and the
drumming. Although in the first clip I thought the drums were a bit too much in front for
my taste. Is it perfectly in sync with the rest of the music?
Your rudimental solo is awesome, too! Stellar abilities, technically as well as rhythmically.
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  #36  
Old 04-27-2013, 10:05 PM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

By the way, two very funny typos in this thread. At least to me - I had to laugh out loud! :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVNT7 View Post
just like a loser approach to Drum Set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Bachman
"Pad solo" -this is just a rudimetal improv on a pad
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:00 AM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
By the way, two very funny typos in this thread. At least to me - I had to laugh out loud! :)
Great catch, whoops!
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Old 05-09-2013, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Hand technique concepts - Jojo Mayer vs. Bill Bachman?

Hey guys, here's my latest blog that somewhat relates to this discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57G4W...6T-osA&index=1

happy drumming, Bill
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