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  #1  
Old 03-16-2013, 02:38 AM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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Default Good jazz books

So, I've been through this years jazz-study auditions, and it went horribly and excruciatingly bad. It was so bad that I contemplated selling my drums and take up something else.
Anyhow, after some downtime, I've decided to not give up and study/practice even more.

So, therefore I need some books I can delve deep into, to learn the jazz language better. I need some more "headroom" as John Riley calls it, and more independence.
Any good books out there?
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  #2  
Old 03-16-2013, 04:35 AM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Good jazz books

tons of good books

but listening is far more important than any book

to play jazz correctly you need to first understand how to listen to jazz.

every time I say that people think it's some hoity toity jazz nazi stuff.......not at all....it's the truth

you cannot listen to jazz the way you listen to rock,funk, blues, pop or any other genre for that matter and "get it"....it is a completely different language...... completely .... constant conversation

to truly "get it" in my opinion you have to live it, breathe it, play it , and constantly take chances in your expression and challenge every musician on the band stand as if it was a friendly loving duel ...it is completely free and raw expression .....

most importantly you need your ride cymbal beat to be solid, authentic, driving, trustworthy , and unique to you .....this alone could take weeks , months, even years in some cases ....its a true development process ....own and completely internalize that quarter note and make it feel good.

without a solid ride beat....you could have all the independence in the world and nothing will sound right and no jazz player will want to be anywhere near you

KNOW MELODIES .......this is the main key to playing jazz in my opinion....just know tunes...even if you are unfamiliar with the form....know the melody and be able to hum it

these are things you don't get from books

as I have already said....but bears repeating....listen listen listen....then listen some more....listen to every jazz record you can get your hands on....then seek out more and listen to all of them multiple times......cannot express how important that is

listen so much that within 10 seconds of a tune you know who the drummer is by his distinct ride pattern and feel ......you know who the sax player is by his tone .....who the piano player is by his phrasing and attack....who the bass player is by his pocket alone

go see good jazz if it is in your area ....then go home and listen some more.....no substitute for listening to the guys who laid the pavement that we all drive on

as for book to get a grip on the vocab

all Rileys books....Art of Bop, Beyond Bop, Jazz Drummers Workshop....plus his DVD the Master Drummer

the drummers complete vocabulary as taught by Alan Dawson

the evolution of jazz drumming by Danny Gotlieb

Systems by Ari Hoenig

the essence of jazz drumming by Jim Blackley

Art Blakeys Jazz Messengers by John Ramsay

get yourself those and a copy of Syncopation (which I'm sure you have ) .......you will get an unbelievable amount of milage out of Syncopation ...the possibilities are endless

check out some Ralph Peterson videos ...they are great

I would recommend learning some of the famous solos as well...such as For Big Sid etc....

here are some great youtube channels

Tim Metz - http://www.youtube.com/feed/UCBEzfbDywiscq_bWuAoXSCg

Justin Varnes at the JazzDrummersResourse - http://www.youtube.com/feed/UC_OrSvwdr0OUz7lMVOmvxMw

Andrew Hare - http://www.youtube.com/feed/UCpP1ZY7d96w94oHgzDVBQqw

jazz playing is a life long journey and a beautiful one......I hope you enjoy it

there are some killer jazz cats around here
Dmacc
8Mile
Haredrums
ToddBishop
Numberless
groove1
kafkapenguin
Brady

among others
....hit up this thread for much knowledge

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=91887

you are a kick ass player Thaard.......I hope you dive into a life of jazz and fall in love as I did

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 03-16-2013 at 06:01 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-16-2013, 05:31 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Good tenacity there-- that's what you're supposed to do when that happens. I don't know how many jazz books you need, actually, if you know what to do with Syncopation. I've got a lot of books, and it's nice to see different perspectives and ways of organizing materials, but none of them are especially life-changing by themselves. Maybe try the jazz part of Dahlgren & Fine. Joe Cusatis's Rudimental Patterns or Joe Morello's Rudimental Jazz are good for getting your solo/fill clichés together. Dejohnette's book with Charlie Perry and Drum Wisdom by Bob Moses, as well as Riley's and Erskine's books, are great for general worldview.

But usually adding more stuff is not the solution if your playing is not happening-- usually you need to square away your fundamentals, listen more, play more, learn tunes, and work on your time and your touch/sound.

What went wrong at the audition?
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Old 03-16-2013, 05:39 AM
cornelius cornelius is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Jim Blackley's "Essence of Jazz Drumming" is the best book, IMO...
Also check out lots of old Blues records...
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  #5  
Old 03-16-2013, 06:52 AM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Hey man, don't even think of selling your gear because of one bad gig. Jazz is not that easy to just jump into.

I can't add any book suggestions to the ones already mentioned. I've used nearly all of them and I have taken something away from every one of them. But nothing has helped me like actually playing with others.

I started played with a jazz trio a couple years ago and thought I knew a lot more than I did since I knew I had a decent amount of independence down, knew a handle of tunes, could sight read fairly well too, etc. all from the books I've been through.

But it was still a bit of an adjustment playing with others. Drum breaks especially. Something I'm still working at...I'm still working at a lot actually. But my point is that you can learn all types of fancy licks from a book but it won't really inform you what to do on the gig. For example, if you use "Exercise 1" from whatever book to comp all night long but it will sound dumb. There isn't any conversation going on there.

We need to know the hows and whys of doing what we do behind the kit. Actually, I can add a recommendation...John Riley's material does a good job of explaining the concept of comping as well as some classic phrases.

However, your best bet is to find a local teacher that can take you guide you through a jazz study.
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  #6  
Old 03-16-2013, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
tons of good books

but listening is far more important than any book

to play jazz correctly you need to first understand how to listen to jazz.

every time I say that people think it's some hoity toity jazz nazi stuff.......not at all....it's the truth

you cannot listen to jazz the way you listen to rock,funk, blues, pop or any other genre for that matter and "get it"....it is a completely different language...... completely .... constant conversation

to truly "get it" in my opinion you have to live it, breathe it, play it , and constantly take chances in your expression and challenge every musician on the band stand as if it was a friendly loving duel ...it is completely free and raw expression .....

most importantly you need your ride cymbal beat to be solid, authentic, driving, trustworthy , and unique to you .....this alone could take weeks , months, even years in some cases ....its a true development process ....own and completely internalize that quarter note and make it feel good.

without a solid ride beat....you could have all the independence in the world and nothing will sound right and no jazz player will want to be anywhere near you

KNOW MELODIES .......this is the main key to playing jazz in my opinion....just know tunes...even if you are unfamiliar with the form....know the melody and be able to hum it

these are things you don't get from books

as I have already said....but bears repeating....listen listen listen....then listen some more....listen to every jazz record you can get your hands on....then seek out more and listen to all of them multiple times......cannot express how important that is

listen so much that within 10 seconds of a tune you know who the drummer is by his distinct ride pattern and feel ......you know who the sax player is by his tone .....who the piano player is by his phrasing and attack....who the bass player is by his pocket alone

go see good jazz if it is in your area ....then go home and listen some more.....no substitute for listening to the guys who laid the pavement that we all drive on

as for book to get a grip on the vocab

all Rileys books....Art of Bop, Beyond Bop, Jazz Drummers Workshop....plus his DVD the Master Drummer

the drummers complete vocabulary as taught by Alan Dawson

the evolution of jazz drumming by Danny Gotlieb

Systems by Ari Hoenig

the essence of jazz drumming by Jim Blackley

Art Blakeys Jazz Messengers by John Ramsay

get yourself those and a copy of Syncopation (which I'm sure you have ) .......you will get an unbelievable amount of milage out of Syncopation ...the possibilities are endless

check out some Ralph Peterson videos ...they are great

I would recommend learning some of the famous solos as well...such as For Big Sid etc....

here are some great youtube channels

Tim Metz - http://www.youtube.com/feed/UCBEzfbDywiscq_bWuAoXSCg

Justin Varnes at the JazzDrummersResourse - http://www.youtube.com/feed/UC_OrSvwdr0OUz7lMVOmvxMw

Andrew Hare - http://www.youtube.com/feed/UCpP1ZY7d96w94oHgzDVBQqw

jazz playing is a life long journey and a beautiful one......I hope you enjoy it

there are some killer jazz cats around here
Dmacc
8Mile
Haredrums
ToddBishop
Numberless
groove1
kafkapenguin
Brady

among others
....hit up this thread for much knowledge

http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=91887

you are a kick ass player Thaard.......I hope you dive into a life of jazz and fall in love as I did
Anthony sums it up here for you in a nutshell. Beautifully thought out and incredible response!

This is also very true....
Quote:
Originally Posted by brady View Post
However, your best bet is to find a local teacher that can take you guide you through a jazz study.
Be sure though to find a true authentic jazz drummer who is also a great teacher. Someone that can play jazz independence only through books is of little value in my opinion. The teacher who is most valuable has done all of what was written in Anthony's post. Like so many others here (including Anthony), I have / had access to some true masters of the instrument within that genre. These people have been doing it all their lives and it's pretty much all they do. I've spent more than 8 years of my life with these guys on a weekly basis and can tell you with absolute certainty they make a difference in the outcome. They are very demanding but very sharing.

Last edited by dmacc; 03-16-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 02:02 PM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Forgot to add that I have a drum teacher, that I will be contacting(always takes some time for him to respond to my messages since he's a bit busy at times).
I will ask him to help me with my jazz-playing. Thanks for the tips guys, keep'em coming

Oh, here's my drum teachers myspace. He can play jazz, that's for sure: http://www.myspace.com/martinwister

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
What went wrong at the audition?
I got some feedback from the auditions. The positive: I was good at communicating, had a lot of good ideas and groove.
The negative: I was too "heavy" in my playing and I needed it to flow more.
I think this has to do with me not having enough "headroom" in my jazz-playing, so I'm always on the edge when playing. If I was playing fusion or funk, I would have lots of headroom and it would feel better. I was also crashing too much and using too much kick. Oh, and I fell out of time during an instrument fill thing which I had composed, which was pretty bad.

These auditions always makes my teeth grind. They're so artificial, and you never know who you will play with. On the first audition, I felt it was easier to communicate with the musicians because I could make eye contact with everyone, but the second one, all the musicians had their heads buried in the note sheets.

Another thing, is that many times, jazz is made out to be so academic(even if it isn't). It's hard to find cats to play with, even in big cities. At jam sessions, there's always these cliques of players that only play with each other, and if you're lucky enough to play with them, you'll never get anything out of it. No gigs, no calls, whatever. I feel that it's imperative to play with other people, so you can get experience.

Last edited by Thaard; 03-16-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:35 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Good jazz books

your teacher can definitely play jazz.....soak up his info for sure

"heavy" is a common description when someone is not used to the touch of jazz playing... .......I have no doubt in my mind that you will find your touch and your sound .....and you may fall in love with jazz as so many of us have and prefer playing it to any other genre ...haha

auditions are never the most conducive environment to produce our best performance on an instrument.

just the fact that you are taking the initiative and studying with a teacher tells me that your drive and passion are in the right place and that your are indeed humble...........be careful though.....you may never want to play anything but jazz once this journey is fully underway :)
it happened to me.

keep us posted

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 03-16-2013 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:58 PM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
your teacher can definitely play jazz.....soak up his info for sure

"heavy" is a common description when someone is not used to the touch of jazz playing... .......I have no doubt in my mind that you will find your touch and your sound .....and you may fall in love with jazz as so many of us have and prefer playing it to any other genre ...haha

auditions are never the place most conducive to our best performance on an instrument.

just the fact that you are taking the initiative and studying with a teacher tells me that your drive and passion are in the right place and that your are indeed humble...........be careful though.....you may never want to play anything but jazz once this journey is fully underway :)
it happened to me.

keep us posted
True dat..

If had to choose one genre of music to play drums to my whole life, it would be jazz because it's so broad a term, AND you got the improvisation, making each piece different each time it's played. That's what makes jazz for me. Each rendition is unique.

I'll probably try to record a jazz cover and post it on youtube/drummerworld for people to critique my jazz playing at this time. Then I will record the same tune in 1 year and see how I've evolved.
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Old 03-16-2013, 04:51 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaard View Post
I got some feedback from the auditions. The positive: I was good at communicating, had a lot of good ideas and groove.
The negative: I was too "heavy" in my playing and I needed it to flow more.
I think this has to do with me not having enough "headroom" in my jazz-playing, so I'm always on the edge when playing. If I was playing fusion or funk, I would have lots of headroom and it would feel better. I was also crashing too much and using too much kick. Oh, and I fell out of time during an instrument fill thing which I had composed, which was pretty bad.

Another thing, is that many times, jazz is made out to be so academic(even if it isn't). It's hard to find cats to play with, even in big cities. At jam sessions, there's always these cliques of players that only play with each other, and if you're lucky enough to play with them, you'll never get anything out of it. No gigs, no calls, whatever. I feel that it's imperative to play with other people, so you can get experience.
What Anthony said.

I would suspect the "heavy" is a carryover from playing rock. With a teacher, you will learn the art of dynamics and a softer touch when playing jazz.

Something my first drum teach told me when I first started learning jazz was that the groove comes primarily from the cymbals in jazz whereas the opposite is true in rock, funk, etc. where the focus is mostly kick and snare.

You'll get the idea from listening to jazz. Absorb it. Even if you don't understand what's going on with comping, why the drummer is playing the hats vs the ride, or whatever, just listen to the dynamics; how softly the snare is chattering away under the spang-a-lang. And even though you can't always hear it, there's most likely a feathering of quarter notes on the bass drum. So, I don't think it's a headroom issue, but a dynamics issue. Apologies if I'm wrong--we haven't heard you play.

As for falling out if time during a break, I do that sometimes too, but it's usually in the woodshed. If you're trying to bust out a lick that you learned and throw it in without really knowing it you will probably mess it up 9 times out of 10 on the bandstand. That's sort of what I was getting at with my "playing Exercise 1...." comment before. It's great to have that independence but it's better to know WHEN to use it. You shouldn't just go up and regurgitate a 4 bar break that you learned without considering the context. That's like walking up to a group of people talking about movies and you say, "I like spaghetti!" It doesn't make any sense and it doesn't contribute to the musical conversation.

With that said, I do have a few licks that I like to practice...some of the classic phrases from the Riley material as well as transcribed stuff...but I don't always play them exactly during the gig. Part of them will seep into my playing and that classic lick becomes something new...something yours.

I've never actually experienced the 'clique-ness' with other cats that you described. Perhaps I've been lucky that I have had someone vouch for me in a few situations. My old drum teacher recommended me for my current gig; his previous piano player was looking for her own band. We had a guitarist with us for a while that had me fill in on his blues gigs on the side too. I would think that if you just had one little opportunity to get in, you'll eventually get more gigs.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:34 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaard View Post
The negative: I was too "heavy" in my playing and I needed it to flow more.... I was also crashing too much and using too much kick.
Quote:
I think this has to do with me not having enough "headroom" in my jazz-playing, so I'm always on the edge when playing. If I was playing fusion or funk, I would have lots of headroom and it would feel better.
I guess it depends on what kind of headroom you mean. Usually that refers just to chops. But a lot of players, even famous ones, operate basically with zero (or minimal) technical headroom-- what they play is basically what they can do. And based on the above comment, you need to just work on your fundamental concept, which doesn't take any chops all-- improve your touch, and learn how to use your bass drum and how to punctuate appropriately.

To get a sense of what people want to hear from you, get out and hear the guys who are getting called to play-- keeping in mind that even if a more accomplished drummer plays very forcefully, or busily, they don't necessarily want to hear that from you, yet. They might not even like it when those guys play that way.

Quote:
It's hard to find cats to play with, even in big cities. At jam sessions, there's always these cliques of players that only play with each other, and if you're lucky enough to play with them, you'll never get anything out of it. No gigs, no calls, whatever.
Well, I've certainly been there. You just have to keep improving and showing up. They'll get to know you, and at some point you'll be playing well enough, and someone is going to need a drummer badly enough that they're going to start calling you occasionally, and it will be easier to get people to set up and play with you. It takes time and persistence.
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Anthony pretty much said everything. Listening is the key. The best jazz drummers (musicians in general really) are always listening. They are aware of everything that's going on bar by freaking bar. The only way to develop this is by listening to a literal ton of records, seeing cats playing live and of course playing with people. I try to look at jam sessions as free jazz lessons, you get to see people play, you learn new tunes, and you get to play with new people and one of two things will happen: they are better than you and they'll make you sweat if you're not listening or they won't be better than you and you'll have to listen to figure out how to make them sound good, both cases are incredibly rewarding experiences.

For the heavy and too much kick and crashes comments I would recommend just going back to the basics, take your ride apart and focus on making that spanalang as swinging as possible, play along to max roach, philly joe, charlie dunlop, roy haynes and art blakey records and try to match that swing.

As for books, I have all of Riley's and I think they're amazing, filled with not only great exercises but a ton of valuable info. I've heard nothing but great things about Essense of Jazz Drumming and I'm planning on buying it soon. I'm gonna recommend Art Blakey's Jazz Messages by John Ramsay, a very in depth analysis of Blakey's playing and it has also has great little stories about Art.

Also don't even think about giving up Thaard, you are a killer player!
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Old 03-16-2013, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Check out this great lesson by Justin Faulkner on how to work on that groove http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCgh8VyHh9E
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

I can't add much to the great comments already posted here, especially Anthony's beautiful post that says it all for me. The fact you were confronted with a challenge and chose fight over flight says everything. Just be careful... this music can change your life. It sure did mine. Now, I'm never fully satisfied with any other kind of music!
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Old 03-17-2013, 03:57 AM
Anthony Amodeo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
The fact you were confronted with a challenge and chose fight over flight says everything.
thats jazz right there ....jazz and punk rock at the same time :)

love it
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Old 03-17-2013, 08:33 AM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Failing the audition is probably the best thing that hapened to you because of the way you chose to rect: insist on getting better. We hae all been there and I am reminded of a quote from an interview with a UFC champion. He said that the way he looks at defeat is that it beats wekness out of you. This has stuck with me as an excellent context and I think you are looking at it that way too.

I recently picked up a nice book which will allow you to do some of the things suggested by the other contributors in the thread. It's called Baby Steps to Giant Steps and it is a collection of playalongs which go through all the tempos from very slow to very fast swing.

I have played jazz for many years but when I recorded myself playing to the first, slow track and listened back, I still found things I could improve an you will too.

And there is so much great information and, above all, encouragement from everybody here plus you have your teacher. You are all set!

Best of luck and keep telling us about your progress. If you can, post your playing so we can hear it.

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Old 03-17-2013, 04:59 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Thaard

I just thought of this ......have you ever read the book...The Inner Game Of Tennis by Timothy Gallwey ?

I highly recommend it

it is not a jazz book obviously ....but deals with the mental aspect of tennis which he calls the "inner game" and everyones very critical "self 1" and our instinctual "self 2"

any time you read the word "tennis" think "drummming" ....and anytime you read the word "racket" think "stick"......

it is quite amazing what you can find out about yourself in this book and I recommend it to not only any drummer.....but any musician, athlete, teacher, lawyer, policman,.....whatever......it applies to anyone with a passion to do what they love to do ...

check it out ....it will indeed help with your quest to properly learn jazz....I promise

here is a bit of a summary on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:43 PM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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I haven't read the book I'm afraid, although I did read through the Effortless mastery book by Kenny Werner.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:51 PM
eddypierce eddypierce is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

A lot of good advice here. Anthony covered it pretty well. Listening is key, and then books can help you figure out the mechanics to do what the guys you're listening to are doing. I think John Riley's books are probably the best overall resource, but all the books that have been recommended are great. I also second the recommendation of Jim Blackley's Essence of Jazz Drumming. If you don't get around to getting it, here's some good advice from it: practice ride cymbal patterns (the jazz ride pattern, straight quarter notes, the shuffle rhythm, patterns with anticipated notes, etc.) at quarter note=40 for substantial periods of time, and focus on how you articulate the pattern. It's amazing how well this will improve your time and your feel at all tempos.

Here are a few other books that are good (not that you need more recommendations, but I've found all of these helpful in various ways):

Advanced Techniques for the Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin (I don't think this was mentioned already, but it is the granddaddy of jazz independence books)

Musical Time by Ed Soph

Art of Drumming by Robert Kaufman

Essential Techniques by Ed Soph

Time Functioning Patterns by Gary Chaffee (for the triplet based jazz independence exercises, AND you can practice the previous 16th note rhythms as if they were swung 8th notes)--this stuff is very mechanical, but it can clean up coordination issues so it's easier to make music).
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Learning some jazz piano can't hurt either...

Nothing too advanced, but enough to read through some basic jazz progressions.

It's what I'm working on now.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaard View Post
So, I've been through this years jazz-study auditions, and it went horribly and excruciatingly bad. It was so bad that I contemplated selling my drums and take up something else.
Anyhow, after some downtime, I've decided to not give up and study/practice even more.

So, therefore I need some books I can delve deep into, to learn the jazz language better. I need some more "headroom" as John Riley calls it, and more independence.
Any good books out there?
I failed my first audition at a prestigious university jazz program. It happens. I stuck to it and I make my living playing and teaching while guys I know who were in the program have given up and gone onto other things. Stay focussed on what you want and you'll get there.

Lots of books have been recommended, so I won't go there. Find a good mentor/teacher. Pay whatever it costs.

Listen a tonne.

Play with whoever will let you.

And remind yourself daily why you do it. Get a tattoo.
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:49 AM
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Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan Casper "DrPowerStroke" Paludan is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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I failed my first audition at a prestigious university jazz program. It happens. I stuck to it and I make my living playing and teaching while guys I know who were in the program have given up and gone onto other things. Stay focussed on what you want and you'll get there.

Lots of books have been recommended, so I won't go there. Find a good mentor/teacher. Pay whatever it costs.

Listen a tonne.

Play with whoever will let you.

And remind yourself daily why you do it. Get a tattoo.
That is just swinging, man :-) Love that post.....favorite quotes: "play with whoever will let you", and "get a tattoo".
Hahaha, you made my day!!
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  #23  
Old 03-21-2013, 08:00 PM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

So I went to my drum teacher today, and played some jazz for him. He said it was good and if I practiced hard this year, I would easily get in. My biggest problems are:
1. I'm not very good at following the form aka I will miss or play too many bars if I have a solo over so and so many bars.

2. I need to start with the basics and practice a lot of ride technique, since I have a "hi-hat" hand as my teacher called. Need to be looser and have a better foundation for my chops and ideas.

3. He said I should buy The Art of Bop drumming(which I'm going to order right away).

4. Play more to playalongs and record myself more often

5. He was going to check if I could join some jazz-jams later, if I practice hard and get better.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:49 PM
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Wavelength Wavelength is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

A good way of starting with form based soloing is to practice smaller forms first -- fours and eights. Once you can make your way through these forms and make music while you're at it, all you need to do is to string these mini forms together to create longer solos. Each "mini form" will act as a milestone, and they will create an inner logic and organisation into your solos.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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A good way of starting with form based soloing is to practice smaller forms first -- fours and eights. Once you can make your way through these forms and make music while you're at it, all you need to do is to string these mini forms together to create longer solos. Each "mini form" will act as a milestone, and they will create an inner logic and organisation into your solos.
great advice

I still think in 4 and 8 bar phrases

for example for a 32 bar form I'll establish an idea for the first 8 ...build on it for the middle two 8s.....(but each 8 being a new phrase in my mind).....then the last 8 I'll either bring it to crescendo or decrescendo or start quoting the melody of the tune to bring the band back in ....depending on what type of tune it is and usually somewhat singing the melody in my head the whole time

great advice Wave.....always easier on the brain to feel 8s and 4s.....plus anyone who is soloing over a form obviously has been playing long enough that they feel 4s and 8s very naturally and never have to guess where they are
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:25 PM
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dmacc dmacc is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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Originally Posted by Wavelength View Post
A good way of starting with form based soloing is to practice smaller forms first -- fours and eights. Once you can make your way through these forms and make music while you're at it, all you need to do is to string these mini forms together to create longer solos. Each "mini form" will act as a milestone, and they will create an inner logic and organisation into your solos.
This is fabulous advice!
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2013, 11:13 PM
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K.Howden K.Howden is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

As regards soloing, this video made it all click for me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw1sOl4kREw

Hope you're well,

Kev
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  #28  
Old 03-23-2013, 02:12 AM
limcid limcid is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

It's extremely important to build as big of a sound library (things heard) as possible...IOW listen, listen, listen to as much jazz music as possible. Don't underestimate how important this is. A visual artist must build a large visual library (things seen) in order to be functional as a creative artist. Same thing with a musician, just with sound instead.

The best (and cheapest, i.e. Free) source is Pandora, IMHO. The audio quality is great. Just type in a jazz drummer's name and off you go...

You can also use sites like Youtube to build a visual library of how different drummers sit and move behind the instrument. I remember the first time I saw Elvin Jones (in a youtube video) and I was shocked at how little he moved when considering the music he produced behind the kit. I always envisioned him moving quite a bit more. It effected my playing when I finally saw him play. I realized all of the leaning to one side and the silly gyrations that I imagined him doing were totally unnecessary, lol. My playing improved from that one observation.

Books are great...but they're just books. The best jazz drummers that ever lived spent most of their time watching and listening to lots of other players. You can leverage the internet to simulate that approach (lots cheaper with greater variety), in addition to the books.

Good luck, and shame on you for even thinking of giving up! :))
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  #29  
Old 03-23-2013, 02:19 AM
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aaajn aaajn is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Its great to see comments about listening. My teacher asked me: Are you listening to the bass line? I told him no, I wasn't, I was just in my own world trying to keep time. He said nobody ever answered no before and I got a gold start for honesty. It was a pretty funny moment.

My favorite listening tool lately is the Blue Note Record App for the iPAd. Its all the blue note label and you can set it on random. That's how I discovered The Little Rasti by Donald Byrd.

Great stuff. I am learning how to listen and I am back in school, Jazz Studies too.

I keep asking myself, what did I get myself into? Than I practice triplets.
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  #30  
Old 03-23-2013, 01:59 PM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

Had a bit of an epiphany. My drum teacher said that instead of thinking about playing the spang-a-lang all the time, that I should think in quarter notes instead, and everything in between is just filler. So I've just sat down and played swung quarter notes on the ride and 2 and 4 on the hi-hat while comping on the snare. It sounds so much better! I can't believe I didn't do this before.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:32 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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Had a bit of an epiphany. My drum teacher said that instead of thinking about playing the spang-a-lang all the time, that I should think in quarter notes instead, and everything in between is just filler. So I've just sat down and played swung quarter notes on the ride and 2 and 4 on the hi-hat while comping on the snare. It sounds so much better! I can't believe I didn't do this before.
for sure ....the quarter note is what drives the band ....as I mentioned in my original post you must internalize it ......but that "filler" is indeed quite necessary not to mention a pretty integral part of the coordination involved in jazz vocabulary .

in no way am I going against what your teacher is telling you....by all means do what he says....but those skip beats will soon become important

and don't feel like you have to stick to "55" or "lang spang a lang" ...whatever you want to call it.....the ride cymbal should be a melody within itself

a lot of the post bop and more modern guys would take some of the comping patterns that you may here some of the bebop guys of the 40s and 50s play on the snare drum....and play them on the ride cymbal.....give a much less cluttered modern sound

try turning the pattern around ...try a 3 3 2 type pattern.... tie some notes.....variations are nice and add greatly to the music

check out this Ian Froman series ...there are 5 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svco860T110

Last edited by Anthony Amodeo; 03-23-2013 at 06:22 PM.
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  #32  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
for sure ....the quarter note is what drives the band ....as I mentioned in my original post you must internalize it ......but that "filler" is indeed quite necessary not to mention a pretty integral part of the coordination involved in jazz vocabulary .

and don't feel like you have to stick to "55" or "lang spang a lang" ...whatever you want to call it.....the ride cymbal should be a melody within itself

a lot of the post bop and more modern guys would take some of the comping patterns that you may here some of the bebop guys of the 40s and 50s play on the snare drum....and play them on the ride cymbal.....give a much less cluttered modern sound

try turning the pattern around ...try a 3 3 2 type pattern.... tie some notes.....variations are nice and add greatly to the music

check out this Ian Froman series ...there are 5 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svco860T110
This is interesting to read. My drum teacher has worked me solely on the pad for 6 months. A few weeks ago he said: Lets sit down and play some drums. With that, he had me play the ride in a swing on 2 and 4 only. I am extremely focused on the 2 and 4, keeping it even. He doenst let me leave anything to chance. its like Paint the Fence.....
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  #33  
Old 03-23-2013, 04:59 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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Originally Posted by aaajn View Post
This is interesting to read. My drum teacher has worked me solely on the pad for 6 months. A few weeks ago he said: Lets sit down and play some drums. With that, he had me play the ride in a swing on 2 and 4 only. I am extremely focused on the 2 and 4, keeping it even. He doenst let me leave anything to chance. its like Paint the Fence.....
for someone just starting you absolutely want to take the Mr. Miyagi approach

Thaard is a pretty experienced player so I don't believe going completely to the drawing board is necessary .....quarter notes are a great place to start with the understanding that skip notes will be added shortly
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  #34  
Old 03-24-2013, 12:54 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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Originally Posted by eddypierce View Post

Time Functioning Patterns by Gary Chaffee (for the triplet based jazz independence exercises, AND you can practice the previous 16th note rhythms as if they were swung 8th notes)--this stuff is very mechanical, but it can clean up coordination issues so it's easier to make music).
This, and technique patterns. I also like how he explained straight, broken time etc. Definitely would recommend an instructor, though, will save lots of precious time.
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  #35  
Old 04-15-2013, 07:29 PM
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Thaard Thaard is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

a little update. I'm now working through the art of bop book. It's annoyingly hard at times, but I'll make it.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-2013, 07:31 PM
aydee aydee is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

...

Hey Thaardy, howubin? long time! Hope you are still playing your ass off.


...
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  #37  
Old 04-15-2013, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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...

Hey Thaardy, howubin? long time! Hope you are still playing your ass off.


...
playing and practising jazz, while me and my buddy finish our prog/fusion duo thingy. We're gonna record drums in July. Hired a studio and everything.
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Old 04-15-2013, 07:58 PM
Anthony Amodeo
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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a little update. I'm now working through the art of bop book. It's annoyingly hard at times, but I'll make it.
stick with it my man ...you are a sick player ....you will come out on top no doubt

doing much listening ?
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Old 04-15-2013, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
stick with it my man ...you are a sick player ....you will come out on top no doubt

doing much listening ?
A new jazz record a day, and watching a lot of jazzdrummers on youtube
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  #40  
Old 04-16-2013, 07:55 AM
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Wavelength Wavelength is offline
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Default Re: Good jazz books

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A new jazz record a day, and watching a lot of jazzdrummers on youtube
While it's good and entertaining to refresh your ears with new music, you should also consider listening to a single album for an extended time period, say, a week. Getting really intimate with a few tunes will, in my opinion, benefit you more than listening to a whole bunch of different material. As you get familiar with the performances, you start picking up new details and nuances you previously didnt'n know existed, thus giving you more enjoyment and appreciation for the music.

It's the same as with practicing: you can't work on something just for a day and expect lasting results.
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