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  #121  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:21 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I think there are, but almost always a positive aspect of female drummers. Less testosterone is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Almost every female drummer I meet places a far greater emphasis on the song, & is often far better at using dynamics to express rather than relying on flash. To sum up, I think most female drummers, at least the ones who play well, are less selfish in their approach to the instrument.

let me start by saying, that prick who laughed in your face is a turd of a human. He will reap the benefits of his own prejudice for sure.

Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Although that may do them some good on the surface, I don't think it helps their case as a musician to be taken seriously, & it certainly feeds the stereo typing of a gender in drumming. I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but there's a time & a place for that, & it's not behind a kit.
If I'd play in a low cut top, I'd be afraid my boobs will pop out during playing... not that I'm playing that wild, but you never know! It's all about practicality for me.
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  #122  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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If I'd play in a low cut top, I'd be afraid my boobs will pop out during playing... not that I'm playing that wild, but you never know! It's all about practicality for me.
Although such an accident would prove extremely popular on youtube, it's absolutely heading in a bad direction, as per my previous post. Practicality is a good way forward. Being comfortable is important, especially during a long gig. The least distractions, the better.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:59 PM
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  #123  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Then in in walks this person with her family and an entourage of at least 10 people all circling her like bodyguards. Believe it or not she was wearing sunglasses and waving to all of us.
Hype & delusion aren't gender specific, but perceived "novelty" can often be the catalyst.

Regrettably, we live in an era of faux celebrity feeding instant gratification. That's such a shame, as it takes opportunities away from those with something more wholesome to offer.
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  #124  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:43 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

While this story is very entertaining and quite shocking at the same time, I'm not convinced
that there is a causal connection between this behavior and the fact that she is female. I
mean of course she behaved like that kind of girls would, but she could have been male
and behave like that kind of boys would.

So certainly a relevant experience for you that you are reminded of everytime you see
"girl drummer", but probably not too much applicable to "girl drummers" in general I guess.
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  #125  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer?. Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers. A good drummer is a good drummer, period.
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  #126  
Old 01-19-2013, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by MaryO View Post
Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer?. Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers. A good drummer is a good drummer, period.
I like that! (And I like your girly look :)!)
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  #127  
Old 01-19-2013, 04:18 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by MaryO View Post
Here's what I don't get, why is it a crime to want to appear feminine and be a good drummer?. Lord knows I'm a girly girl, look at my avatar, but something like that pic shouldn't take away from my drumming. Just because a girl wants t play in heels or look good while she plays for an audience doesn't mean her playing suffers. If the way she looks closes your ears, that's your prejudice and problem, not hers. A good drummer is a good drummer, period.
Nothing. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I believe this is the consensus of most of the members here. It makes sense. But I feel that those who play these cards, aren't interested in becoming a member of a community, rather than get hits on youtube, or photos in a magazine.

It is all too rare. If it happens in front of me - I'll buy you a drink, then tell war stories.

We all appreciate good drummers (competition, inspiration, entertainment, pure musical enjoyment).

The issue we see as qualifiers (or self-designated restrictions), this is not instrument specific, or gender specific, nor is it just music, but life in general.
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  #128  
Old 01-19-2013, 04:45 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Jostne View Post
Yeah, Jasper, getting back to your original point I think I agree with you. Women are gonna stand out because it is still relatively unusual to see a female behind the drums and therefore garner more attention. That and they are better to look at. Well, usually anyway. It's rarer still to see a REALLY GREAT female drummer, too. Not for any reason other than there are less of us around.
Exactly!

And yes, it is MUCH more enjoyable watching a female musician who is GOOD at her instrument. It is like Heaven on Earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Jasper, no one's arguing against facts, just questioning some of your other comments, like:



I'm a rather ordinary female drummer who would seemingly prove your point. Yet I still can't see the genetics in it - not with drums, not with any instrument. Music is one of the most gender neutral things you can do. Certainly at school the guys on the footy team won't think of the guys in the music room as macho.

Yet, most musicians are male, apart from maybe orchestras. I think the most important reason behind this is that women aren't encouraged to play instruments - we are supposed to sing and dance and look pretty and poised for the guys. While some men dig sweaty Amazons (fortunately), princesses are far more in demand ... and a proper lady does not chuck a spread around a snare drum and get all boisterous and sweaty on the drum kit!

The other reason major reason is that gigging and motherhood are an especially tricky juggle.

It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, but I can't see how there could be an aptitude difference. It's environmental.
Wonderful perspective! BUT - I wasn't implying an aptitude difference, but rather merely suggesting that the urge to beat things is an aggressive feature that is normally attributed to the hunter - wondering if there are hormonal differences that activate different triggers in the brain when stimulated, combined with physical traits such as muscular structure. Clearly there are traits defined as either normally masculine or feminine, but that doesn't define whether a man or woman should have either one.

I mean - we all start out as female, and the differences between gender is hormonal from the very beginning. I'm sure it would be interesting to learn that there is a 'nature' aspect of the reason we gravitate towards music in general, and then more specifically - drums.
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  #129  
Old 01-19-2013, 04:59 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

On another note - there was an annoying story about a (supposed) musician using tactics unrelated to music to promote one's self during a competition. It was a well told story, but clearly the party involved would be embarrassed to read it.

I was going to respond to it, only to notice it has been removed.

What happened?

My comments would have addressed the point that I believe because she was a female, with a moderate display of ability, someone saw this as a cash cow, invested money in the entourage, and hoped to reap the benefits. She was nothing more than marionette. It is a shame really.

To add the controversy, and this discussion - I believe this situation is a direct result of the topic we are discussing.
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  #130  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
Nothing. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact, I believe this is the consensus of most of the members here. It makes sense. But I feel that those who play these cards, aren't interested in becoming a member of a community, rather than get hits on youtube, or photos in a magazine.
That's a new one on me. I've never heard of the “being female and good looking” card. I guess if they ugly themselves up before hitting the stage that would sit better with you? That should go over well.

I guess I need to introduce you to something you've never heard of, which I like to call “show” business. I hear that for participants (known as “performers”), getting their videos watched and getting their photo in the press are actually good things. It's known as “publicity” and these so-called PER-FOR-MERS (excuse me, I sometimes over-enunciate when pronouncing exotic words) actually use it to advance their “careers.”

Seriously, community? WITF are you talking about?
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  #131  
Old 01-19-2013, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Oh, and does anyone know of a good DRUMMING FORUM on line? I've got some talented female students who want to read about drumming, and I don't need to subject them to a bunch of off topic sexist GARBAGE. Thanks.
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  #132  
Old 01-19-2013, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc.
Playing in "heals" - nice Freudian slip! I won't even wear heels to weddings and funerals these days let alone when trying to operate pedals. I take off flat sandals before driving, let alone heels. (Funny thing, it's illegal to drive with bare feet but that's how I feel the most control, same with hats and kick).

There's a clip on YT with Sheila E ripping off a solo while wearing a spangly mini dress and heels. How can she play so well in party clothes? That's part of the shtick. How did she do it?

Whatever, as Mary said, girly girls don't feel right unless they're spruced up to some extent. I personally go for comfort over glamour every time but, then again, I'm growing old with a dog.

:)
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  #133  
Old 01-19-2013, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

This thread has been the forum equivalent of watching a slow-motion car wreck on an icy road over... and over... and over.
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  #134  
Old 01-20-2013, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Maybe there's something wrong with me but I don't see a problem with messy threads like this. There will always be a clash between Disturbers of The Peace and Enforcers of Standards (and those in between) if there is a sniff of gender, economics, religion, guns, sexuality, jazz and double bass drum pedals etc.

The only problem is that some interesting objective information and ideas can be glossed over because people tend to be captivated by conflict, eg. Karls' drumming grandmother, physiology, cultural observations ...
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  #135  
Old 01-20-2013, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
That's a new one on me. I've never heard of the “being female and good looking” card. I guess if they ugly themselves up before hitting the stage that would sit better with you? That should go over well.

I guess I need to introduce you to something you've never heard of, which I like to call “show” business. I hear that for participants (known as “performers”), getting their videos watched and getting their photo in the press are actually good things. It's known as “publicity” and these so-called PER-FOR-MERS (excuse me, I sometimes over-enunciate when pronouncing exotic words) actually use it to advance their “careers.”

Seriously, community? WITF are you talking about?
I believe you've misinterpreted my point. It's one thing to say - drummer, it's another to self-advertise - 'Girl Drummer'. Two completely different qualifiers.

There are women that drum, and market themselves as - good female drummers. What kind of classification is that? Are you good or not? What difference does it matter if you're female or not?

I believe in one thing such as press, but if you saw the post in which I commented (which was removed), you'd probably take these words in the correct context. Unfortunately, this did not happen.
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Oh, and does anyone know of a good DRUMMING FORUM on line? I've got some talented female students who want to read about drumming, and I don't need to subject them to a bunch of off topic sexist GARBAGE. Thanks.
The people who post the vids and then title them "Girl Drummers (for their age)" are the ones who are sexist. You should get them to read threads like this - and they should learn that if they want to be recognized as a drummer, they should pursue their talents, and not rely on their gender to self-promote.
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  #136  
Old 01-20-2013, 07:55 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
I believe you've misinterpreted my point. It's one thing to say - drummer, it's another to self-advertise - 'Girl Drummer'. Two completely different qualifiers.

There are women that drum, and market themselves as - good female drummers. What kind of classification is that? Are you good or not? What difference does it matter if you're female or not?

I believe in one thing such as press, but if you saw the post in which I commented (which was removed), you'd probably take these words in the correct context. Unfortunately, this did not happen.
I read everything you wrote, so this “context” shuck and jive is just an attempt to evade responsibility for your words. And whatever happened to “my observations indicate girl drummers suck”? That was your original point here. Why don't you defend that?

Quote:
The people who post the vids and then title them "Girl Drummers (for their age)" are the ones who are sexist. You should get them to read threads like this - and they should learn that if they want to be recognized as a drummer, they should pursue their talents, and not rely on their gender to self-promote.
First, you need to ask somebody better informed than you what sexism is. Unless they're stealing publicity that would be going to you— or something, I don't pretend to know how you think— it's none of your business. As a mediocre amateur with no public presence as a musician whatsoever, you have no dog in this fight— and you sure as hell don't speak for me.

And who do you think you are, anyway, with this patronizing garbage? Their dad?

Oh, right:

Quote:
I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower.
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  #137  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:21 PM
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  #138  
Old 01-20-2013, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Zero Mercury Drummer View Post
I love seeing girl drummers, just because there are not that many of them.

The ability of a female to generate interest with her looks is offset by the additional challenges that face girl drummers. It's still a male-dominated industry. So call it a draw. Can't do anything about it anyhow, most attractive females will utilize their looks in any type of stage career. As they should.

Cindy Blackman, Hillary Jones and Terry Lynne Carrington are respected female drummers that come to mind, and not for their looks. Although they are all very attractive.
"Male dominated industry" is an interesting subject. I have a very "Womens lib" daughter and we have had many in depth discussions on the subject. Is drumming male dominated because women drummers are excluded, or is it because women dont aspire to be drummers as much as males do?
Personally I doubt a woman would be excluded from a job in the music industry If she were a good enough musician. Please tell me I am not wrong.
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  #139  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:42 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I read everything you wrote, so this “context” shuck and jive is just an attempt to evade responsibility for your words. And whatever happened to “my observations indicate girl drummers suck”? That was your original point here. Why don't you defend that?



First, you need to ask somebody better informed than you what sexism is. Unless they're stealing publicity that would be going to you— or something, I don't pretend to know how you think— it's none of your business. As a mediocre amateur with no public presence as a musician whatsoever, you have no dog in this fight— and you sure as hell don't speak for me.

And who do you think you are, anyway, with this patronizing garbage? Their dad?

Oh, right:
Like I said - the post I responded to was deleted. So you missed it.

I can't help if you didn't understand that.

I, in no way, ever said that female drummers suck.

Two things I believe you will be unable to do:
#1 Quote me in saying that female drummers suck.
#2 Find the post in which I replied to, that you quoted out of context, because the post was deleted. I cannot help that you missed it.

If you can do either of those, I'd love to entertain this misleading path you seem to be on, or the relevance to the topic.

*edit: I'm not sure how you assumed that I was mediocre or amateur either. I simply stated I was nothing special, and I never hinted at my professional status. BUT - neither one of those qualifications exclude me from being able to discern a good musician from others. Some of the best ears in music can't play to save their lives.

**edit: Isn't the sexism you mentioned directly related to the first post of this thread? Looks like you and the OP are in line. Females announcing 'girl drummer', garnering more hits than male drummers, would fall in to that category, no?

How is what I'm suggesting is patronizing in any way? Is anything I'm saying inaccurate? I have not met 6 billion people to take an accurate analysis. I can only use my exposure to base my observations. My observations are accurate according to my perception. No amount of political correctness or other actions can change what has happened around me, and as much as I dislike the outcome, it will not stop me from voicing my interpretation of those observations.

To add - this topic has intrigued me (I've realized that I'm not the only one who sees this way - out of those who aren't out to make the world a fair place). I've asked a few people (without attempting to skew their responses, although hard to do, without asking the question properly) what they think about female drummers. The answers have been entertaining.

Last edited by JasperGTR; 01-20-2013 at 11:09 PM.
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  #140  
Old 01-20-2013, 10:46 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
"Male dominated industry" is an interesting subject. I have a very "Womens lib" daughter and we have had many in depth discussions on the subject. Is drumming male dominated because women drummers are excluded, or is it because women dont aspire to be drummers as much as males do?
Personally I doubt a woman would be excluded from a job in the music industry If she were a good enough musician. Please tell me I am not wrong.
I believe this is correct. In fact, I'll go further and say it may be easier, because they are female. I believe a woman has more of an ability to 'make it' in the music industry, because sales may increase, due to the novelty of a woman musician.

I would suggest there is absolutely NOTHING holding your daughter back from having a satisfying career as a musician, other than herself.

*edit: "or is it because women dont aspire to be drummers as much as males do?"

I believe this has a LOT to do with it. I've seen more than my fair share of females displaying a superior ability at a given challenge (at a similar level of experience) than their male counterparts, but have little or no desire to pursue it (such as professional driving, or shooting).

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  #141  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:04 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

But what about girl cyborg drummers!
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  #142  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

I'm thinking there are fewer women playing all instruments than men. Not just drums. And I mean combined. I realize there are probably more string players that are women than men.
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  #143  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:18 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
I'm thinking there are fewer women playing all instruments than men. Not just drums. And I mean combined. I realize there are probably more string players that are women than men.
I've mentioned this earlier, and agree with this observation.
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  #144  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
Like I said - the post I responded to was deleted. So you missed it.

I can't help if you didn't understand that.

I, in no way, ever said that female drummers suck.

Two things I believe you will be unable to do:
#1 Quote me in saying that female drummers suck.
#2 Find the post in which I replied to, that you quoted out of context, because the post was deleted. I cannot help that you missed it.

If you can do either of those, I'd love to entertain this misleading path you seem to be on, or the relevance to the topic.

*edit: I'm not sure how you assumed that I was mediocre or amateur either. I simply stated I was nothing special, and I never hinted at my professional status. BUT - neither one of those qualifications exclude me from being able to discern a good musician from others. Some of the best ears in music can't play to save their lives.

**edit: Isn't the sexism you mentioned directly related to the first post of this thread? Looks like you and the OP are in line. Females announcing 'girl drummer', garnering more hits than male drummers, would fall in to that category, no?
I'll take your retreat into quibbling over “context”, and legalistic gibberish as an admission that you have no rational defense for your sexist garbage. Your meaning throughout this thread has been plain, with lines like this:

Quote:
I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations.
And there's nothing stopping you from reposting that exonerating context, chief. Bring it, or shut up about it.
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  #145  
Old 01-20-2013, 11:48 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I'll take your retreat into quibbling over “context”, and legalistic gibberish as an admission that you have no rational defense for your sexist garbage. Your meaning throughout this thread has been plain, with lines like this:



And there's nothing stopping you from reposting that exonerating context, chief. Bring it, or shut up about it.
Yes there is. I didn't post it. Please read my posts before making assumptions.

I've already stated that I haven't met a female drummer that is on par with other male counterparts. Why must I repeat it for your benefit? I think I was clear the first time.

Again, I ask - is anything I've stated about that inaccurate?

How are my observations, and my interpretation of them - sexist garbage? Simply because you think they are? Your opinion. Does not add thousands of female drummers, or improve the ability of the ones that I've performed with, or watched perform. It just makes you feel better that you live in a perfect world where there just as many female drummers as male drummers.

We don't have to look further than this to explain my point:
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummerchoice.html
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  #146  
Old 01-21-2013, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
Yes there is. I didn't post it. Please read my posts before making assumptions.
Well, I know you didn't break your typing finger.

Quote:
I've already stated that I haven't met a female drummer that is on par with other male counterparts. Why must I repeat it for your benefit? I think I was clear the first time.

Again, I ask - is anything I've stated about that inaccurate?

How are my observations, and my interpretation of them - sexist garbage? Simply because you think they are? Your opinion. Does not add thousands of female drummers, or improve the ability of the ones that I've performed with, or watched perform. It just makes you feel better that you live in a perfect world where there just as many female drummers as male drummers.

We don't have to look further than this to explain my point:
http://www.drummerworld.com/drummerchoice.html
Schmuck, you described your own views as sexist more than once. Sexism = garbage, so QED, mf. Further, when you are presented with multiple examples of accomplished female drummers, yet you persist in prattling on about never encountering any that live up to your high standards (which, curiously, you do not apply to your own musicianship), it looks to anyone with eyes attached to a functioning brain rather like you have a sexist axe to grind.
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Old 01-21-2013, 01:10 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Well, I know you didn't break your typing finger.



Schmuck, you described your own views as sexist more than once. Sexism = garbage, so QED, mf. Further, when you are presented with multiple examples of accomplished female drummers, yet you persist in prattling on about never encountering any that live up to your high standards (which, curiously, you do not apply to your own musicianship), it looks to anyone with eyes attached to a functioning brain rather like you have a sexist axe to grind.
I don't know how my typing has something to do with someone else making a post and having it removed. Please explain. Maybe my brain isn't functioning.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND - SOMEONE MADE A LENGTHY POST REGARDING AN INSTANCE ABOUT A FEMALE BEING JUDGED IN A COMPETITION, AND WAS CLEARLY SUBSTANDARD, ACCORDING TO THE POSTER AND OTHER COMPETITORS WHO WITHDREW AFTER VIEWING THE SEEMINGLY SKEWED RESULTS. IT WAS REMOVED WHILE I WAS TYPING A REPLY TO IT, WHICH YOU READ, AND APPEARED TO TAKE OUT OF CONTEXT. I MADE NO SUCH RETREAT OF ANY KIND. I DID NOT REMOVE THE POST, NOR DID I POST IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. What did you NOT get?

If you expect me to type someone's 50 paragraph essay about a specific event, you'll be waiting a while.

I've already conceded that perhaps my expectations are too high. What else do you need to hear?

The only sexist axe I have to grind are women who want notoriety for their ability, and when nobody watches, they say,"But I'm a girl!" And then attempt to get viewed through a different scope. That is sexism at its worst. I will not apologize for recognizing it.

Please do not misinterpret that somehow I've suggested that EVERY female drummer does this, as this would be grossly off point.

Maybe you could ask why DRUMMER WORLD backs up my observations. My guess is you won't, because you are not interested in the way life works.

And I have no idea why you think I don't apply my standards to my own musicianship. Perhaps yet ANOTHER assumption? Keep going. I'll tally the false assumptions later (that are all irrelevant).

Last edited by JasperGTR; 01-21-2013 at 01:25 AM.
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  #148  
Old 01-21-2013, 01:30 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
I don't know how my typing has something to do with someone else making a post and having it removed. Please explain. Maybe my brain isn't functioning.

PLEASE UNDERSTAND - SOMEONE MADE A LENGTHY POST REGARDING AN INSTANCE ABOUT A FEMALE BEING JUDGED IN A COMPETITION, AND WAS CLEARLY SUBSTANDARD, ACCORDING TO THE POSTER AND OTHER COMPETITORS WHO WITHDREW AFTER VIEWING THE SEEMINGLY SKEWED RESULTS. IT WAS REMOVED WHILE I WAS TYPING A REPLY TO IT, WHICH YOU READ, AND APPEARED TO TAKE OUT OF CONTEXT. I MADE NO SUCH RETREAT OF ANY KIND. I DID NOT REMOVE THE POST, NOR DID I POST IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. What did you NOT get?

I've already conceded that perhaps my expectations are too high. What else do you need to hear?

The only sexist axe I have to grind are women who want notoriety for their ability, and when nobody watches, they say,"But I'm a girl!" And then attempt to get viewed through a different scope. That is sexism at its worst. I will not apologize for recognizing it.
Um, no, Jas, that is not “sexism at it's worst” in any sense of the meaning of either word. That is actually nothing. The fact that you are so outraged over nothing simply because this gender element has it's hooks in you is telling.

You're going to have to excuse me now, because I have to go teach music to a couple of young women. You need to grow up, man up, and learn a little something about sexism, and why it's bad.
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  #149  
Old 01-21-2013, 02:25 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Um, no, Jas, that is not “sexism at it's worst” in any sense of the meaning of either word. That is actually nothing. The fact that you are so outraged over nothing simply because this gender element has it's hooks in you is telling.

You're going to have to excuse me now, because I have to go teach music to a couple of young women. You need to grow up, man up, and learn a little something about sexism, and why it's bad.
It is bad when people defend its use.

I dislike sexism in the military.

I dislike sexism in sports.

I dislike sexism in just about anything. But that doesn't change its presence. I have taken my stand against sexism (in more important arenas than music). Have you? You should not make false assumptions.

I believe in striving for equality.

I have learned something, since this discussion began - I've learned my belief that there are most likely more promoters attempting to gain from marketing a female drummer, than females who want to be recognized on their own ability (let's say for each female drummer, there are two or more people who want her to be seen being successful).

To clarify - Let's take a woman drummer, content with her abilities, wants to be seen as a peer among the crowd, but is marketed as 'best girl drummer'. The bar is lowered. Why? Because the promoter added the qualifier. Why not just say - "best drummer"?

I'm actually outraged that some try to dismiss my observations as false, or wrong. I'm not outraged at all about women who promote their sexuality to gain an advantage. That is called life. I'm outraged by the many that are either blind to it, or part of it.

If you think I'm outraged by a girl titling her own youtube video, you are sadly mistaken (yet, another false assumption).

And if I mentally lowered the standard, wouldn't that mean I'm giving more chances to succeed? What you are suggesting is very backwards from my position, and you are appearing quite hypocritical (calling me patronizing, then speaking condescendingly to me).

I see you side stepped all of my points. I hope you're not afraid to address them.

For reference: See Danica Patrick vs Ryan Newman, regarding sponsorship. (I do expect most here to dismiss the NASCAR reference, even though most know who she is, and why I'm referencing this). I'm almost positive Danica does NOT want to be recognized as the best female driver in motorsports, but rather a good driver among peers (and maybe perhaps a Champion). Does Godaddy believe the same? I don't think so. They want to cash in on her TV time. Is the bar lower for her? The way they talk about her coming in 20th as a success, there may be a correlation. Motorsports is predominantly male. Drumming is predominantly male.

I believe you could tell me that what I've seen is not the norm, or perhaps further clarification is requested (to prevent MANY false assumptions). But to tell me that I'm wrong about things that have happened to others (not just me) is garbage is an ignorant approach (because denying the actions doesn't solve anything).

What is interesting is - I also teach young men and women about music. I would like if my students were recognized because of their ability and talents as a musician, not their gender. Perhaps you're assuming waaaayyyy too much. I believe so.

Last edited by JasperGTR; 01-21-2013 at 05:42 PM.
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  #150  
Old 01-21-2013, 02:52 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Jasp, I'll agree with you on this - I think it's goofy when a YT vid is posted "girl drummer" too. Still, as they say, sex sells ... and that's not the fault of women!

I've satirised the FEMALE DRUMMER game a couple of times - I got called on it the second time when the satire was less obvious :)

Fetchingly aged FEMALE DRUMMER!!! - Soundscape

FEMALE drummer!! A Mosquito at Night
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:06 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

I find it interesting that the ones getting most heated over this discussion are males.
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  #152  
Old 01-21-2013, 03:10 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Gentlemen keep on topic and leave the personal attacks outside.
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  #153  
Old 01-21-2013, 03:52 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Jasp, I'll agree with you on this - I think it's goofy when a YT vid is posted "girl drummer" too. Still, as they say, sex sells ... and that's not the fault of women!

I've satirised the FEMALE DRUMMER game a couple of times - I got called on it the second time when the satire was less obvious :)

Fetchingly aged FEMALE DRUMMER!!! - Soundscape

FEMALE drummer!! A Mosquito at Night
Haha!! Always and forever, as long as men have money...

... reading links...

*edit: That second thread is too funny. It summed everything up right there.

By the way - very relaxing music. Well done.
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  #154  
Old 01-21-2013, 03:58 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryO View Post
I find it interesting that the ones getting most heated over this discussion are males.
Sure. I don't actually care if some women are OK with the things he's said here. It's not OK with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Gentlemen keep on topic and leave the personal attacks outside.
No personal attacks here. He thought he could have a conversation about other people's shortcomings while being immune from any scrutiny himself, and he was wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
It is bad when people defend its use.

I dislike sexism in the military.

I dislike sexism in sports.

I dislike sexism in just about anything. But that doesn't change its presence. I have taken my stand against sexism (in more important arenas than music). Have you? You should not make false assumptions.

I believe in striving for equality.

I have learned something, since this discussion began - I've learned my belief that there are most likely more promoters attempting to gain from marketing a female drummer, than females who want to be recognized on their own ability (let's say for each female drummer, there are two or more people who want her to be seen being successful).

To clarify - Let's take a woman drummer, content with her abilities, wants to be seen as a peer among the crowd, but is marketed as 'best girl drummer'. The bar is lowered. Why? Because the promoter added the qualifier. Why not just say - "best drummer"?

I'm actually outraged that some try to dismiss my observations as false, or wrong. I'm not outraged at all about women who promote their sexuality to gain an advantage. That is called life. I'm outraged by the many that are either blind to it, or part of it.

If you think I'm outraged by a girl titling her own youtube video, you are sadly mistaken (yet, another false assumption).

And if I mentally lowered the standard, wouldn't that mean I'm giving more chances to succeed? What you are suggesting is very backwards from my position, and you are appearing quite hypocritical (calling me patronizing, then speaking condescendingly to me).

I see you side stepped all of my points. I hope you're not afraid to address them.

For reference: See Danica Patrick vs Ryan Newman, regarding sponsorship. (I do expect most here to dismiss the NASCAR reference, even though most know who she is, and why I'm referencing this). I'm almost positive Danica does NOT want to be recognized as the best female driver in motorsports, but rather a good driver among peers (and maybe perhaps a Champion). Does Godaddy believe the same? I don't think so. They want to cash in on her TV time. Is the bar lower for her? The way they talk about her coming in 20th as a success, there may be a correlation. Motorsports is predominantly male. Drumming is predominantly male.

I believe you could tell me that what I've seen is not the norm, or perhaps further clarification is requested (to prevent MANY false assumptions). But to tell me that I'm wrong about things that have happened to others (not just me) is garbage is an ignorant approach (because denying the actions doesn't solve anything).

What is interesting is - I also teach young men and women about music. Perhaps you're assuming waaaayyyy too much. I believe so.
I guess I have to take you at your word on that. And I can see this is more attention than you've had in years from either sex, and you will eagerly keep up this tap dancing all night, so I'm out of here. Good luck with your life.
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  #155  
Old 01-21-2013, 04:04 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
...

No personal attacks here...

...And I can see this is more attention than you've had in years from either sex...
I think this about sums it up.

Same post. I can't define irony any better.

Todd, now that you're done - I counted 5 false assumptions. Good luck to you as well.
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  #156  
Old 01-21-2013, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Arguments aside, Jasp I take it you would agree that players like Terri-Lynne Carrington, Hilary Jones and Cindy Blackman - while not being Vinnie or Steve Gadd - are more skilled than the vast majority of male drummers. As I said before, there's much more difference in standard within the genders than between them.

Glad you enjoyed some of my kooky music :)
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  #157  
Old 01-21-2013, 04:56 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Arguments aside, Jasp I take it you would agree that players like Terri-Lynne Carrington, Hilary Jones and Cindy Blackman - while not being Vinnie or Steve Gadd - are more skilled than the vast majority of male drummers. As I said before, there's much more difference in standard within the genders than between them.

Glad you enjoyed some of my kooky music :)
I agree with you, 100%.
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  #158  
Old 01-21-2013, 05:27 AM
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Cool :)

Some deadly broken rhythms playing by Terri-Lynne http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdD3Bqr8e78
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:33 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by mikel View Post
Personally I doubt a woman would be excluded from a job in the music industry If she were a good enough musician. Please tell me I am not wrong.
Sadly, there’s pretty solid evidence that women are (were?) often excluded from orchestras based on their, er, womanliness.

Turns out that in so-called blind auditions (where the person auditioning is hidden behind a curtain), women get the gig significantly more often than in non-blind auditions. Meaning that when the people judging the audition can see the performer, men get better grades simply because they are male (or women get worse marks because they’re female).
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Old 01-21-2013, 08:58 PM
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Sadly, there’s pretty solid evidence that women are (were?) often excluded from orchestras based on their, er, womanliness.

Turns out that in so-called blind auditions (where the person auditioning is hidden behind a curtain), women get the gig significantly more often than in non-blind auditions. Meaning that when the people judging the audition can see the performer, men get better grades simply because they are male (or women get worse marks because they’re female).
Not surprised at all. There's also evidence in showing employment preferences for tall men over short men (no Bo, not in Disney) and good looking people over uglies.
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