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  #81  
Old 01-17-2013, 05:49 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

[quote=JasperGTR;1099283
I, admittedly, look at 'girl' drummers with a different set of expectations (sexism at its worst), not unlike a parent looking at a child's artwork compared to an accomplished artist, we are impressed because the standard is lower. So the mere definition of a good 'girl' drummer is completely different than a good drummer. This is based solely off of my own personal observations. This may be offensive, but I don't have enough evidence supporting any contrary theories. I have no doubt of the possibility of a good girl drummer, I just haven't seen one that met my personal expectations.[/QUOTE]

Pretty narrow. I'd suggest you:
get out of your basement,
read some books,
expand your personal observations,
GET some evidence, and increase your sample size, and reduce your BIAS

before you make any assertions on this topic. Everything you are saying is subjective.
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  #82  
Old 01-17-2013, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

This idea of 'inherent gender characteristics' is an interesting one, to say the least.

Count me in as one of the 'nurture' crowd. I'm sure there are some inherent female characteristics beyond the obvious physical differences but in all honesty, in the field of drumming, I think it makes very little difference. I've had the pleasure of meeting a few great female drummers (Michele, if you're reading) who are as good as if not better than almost any professional male drummer you care to mention.

Quite simply, I don't see what the point of defining drummers by their gender is. Likewise, with any other instrument. I've met male flautists, male violinists, female contrabassoonists, male cornet players, female sousaphone players, female double-bassists, female orchestral percussionists and any array of other instrumentalists. I've never once bothered to even consider their gender in relation to their playing, it's just not relevant.

With the drums, there is certainly a history of male players dominating the instrument but that has nothing to do with any inherent 'female' characteristics and everything to do with stereotyping and the opportunities available to female players (very limited) in the early days of the instrument. Most of the early Jazz ensembles were male-dominated in all rôles - why that is I have little idea - but there was a novelty of any female players in some of the early Big Bands. Now, taken that the drums were originally derived from Big Bands then historically there is certainly a male lineage of great drummers - from Big Sid Catlett, to Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich then into the smaller bands like Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jack DeJohnette and then into Popular bands like The Beatles and The Who - all of which were in male-dominated groups. That's historical and has no bearing on the 'inherent' characteristics of the instrument.

If anybody wants to spout out the 'aggression' 'strength' and 'speed' arguments, I'm afraid you're just wrong. You do not have to be aggressive to play the drums, you do not need to be physically strong (though I know plenty of women that are both) and the athletic abilities of women in general are no different in terms of speed - the only obvious differences being in high-class athletics that represent 0.1% of the exceptional population.

If you want to hear tasteful, strong, aggressive, agile drumming I'll take Susie Ibarra over any dozens of male equivalents any day and that has nothing to do with her gender. Just her ability and expressive nuance.

So why bother making these comparisons at all? It's like telling somebody in advertising that they're good at their job 'for a girl'. If anybody said that in a workplace I were in charge of, they'd be in a meeting with me in a femtosecond, explaining why they expect the standard of women to be lower. So why say it for female drummers? They're a drummer that happens to have female reproductive organs - so what?!
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  #83  
Old 01-17-2013, 06:00 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by vxla View Post
Can we see a video of you playing?
I'm nothing special, I assure you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
And that's not the case with the majority of all drummers, regardless of gender? How about you?



Right, you're just an impartial observer. “Regrettably, those seem to be the facts...”

What motivated you to resurrect this dead thread? The spirit of scientific inquiry?
I've stated, this is based on my personal observations only. And I agree that this observation is across genders (regarding limiting one's self). We see this among almost all talents and venues (whether music, sports, science, etc...).

I don't believe you took my comments entirely in their intended context.

The reason this appears to be resurrected is twofold - #1 I haven't checked back here in a while, and #2 if I stated my opinion after reading the other posts on a new thread, it would just be cross-linked anyway, so this just clears up the unnecessary steps.

[quote=MaryO;1099774]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
I've seen other girl drummers, but they all seem limited, almost as if they quit learning - almost saying,"this is as much as I need to develop - and now I'm done."


Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait. QUOTE]

Well crap! Not only am I destined to be a failure with my limited abilities, but I'm masculine as well! Guess I better turn in my sticks now! :P

(P.S. - I hope this isn't the same logic you use to encourage your daughter!)
It appears as though you are offended by my comments. I cannot discuss this path, because I do not see it this way. I have no idea how one can take - "I haven't seen it" and turn that around to "It is impossible, so you shouldn't try".

Interestingly enough - I firmly believe that I am not the only one making these observations, but those who agree are usually not willing to take an un-PC approach to real life experiences.

So, for people who believe that female drummers are a common sighting, please share with me your experiences. Even female drummers here - are other female drummers common with you?

To me, Cindy Blackman is an anomaly. One of rare talent, combined with artistic and emotional ability, regardless of gender. And I have not even discussed her ability, because, to me, they can mutually exclusive, and . One can be a GREAT drummer, with little ability. Because there are many types of music, just as there are many types of drummers and styles.
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  #84  
Old 01-17-2013, 06:13 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Pretty narrow. I'd suggest you:
get out of your basement,
read some books,
expand your personal observations,
GET some evidence, and increase your sample size, and reduce your BIAS

before you make any assertions on this topic. Everything you are saying is subjective.
I've already conceded this with my earlier posts. In fact, I think I pretty much opened with this. I don't disagree with you (except for the book reading thing - I don't see how this would help me see better drumming). I have every right to make assertions based on my present observations. And I'm here to learn as well.

If someone approaches you and says,"Regarding this topic, I don't agree."

Do you respond and say,"Well you're wrong."

Or like another poster,"Well, I should just quit then (sarcastically)."

To me, it doesn't help anyone. The videos that were posted reminded me of what I already knew to be true, that there are amazing drummers out there, of both genders. I just haven't seen it. To be fair, maybe my expectations are too high in general.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
...
So why bother making these comparisons at all? It's like telling somebody in advertising that they're good at their job 'for a girl'. If anybody said that in a workplace I were in charge of, they'd be in a meeting with me in a femtosecond, explaining why they expect the standard of women to be lower. So why say it for female drummers? They're a drummer that happens to have female reproductive organs - so what?!
This was actually my original position. Why post "female drummer"? Why not "drummer"?

I believe for females to be taken the same way in a seemingly male-dominated arena, drop the moniker.

I'm perfectly content with watching any drummer, regardless of gender. Once that person has been self-described as either 'male' or 'female', you've categorized yourself, and I shall put you in the self-labelled container that was requested.
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  #85  
Old 01-17-2013, 06:19 PM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
If you have no doubt there's some outstanding, talented female drummers out there,why did you post such sexist comments? It doesn't make sense...

This forum include several female drummers, some of which are extremely talented, do you really have to see them before your eyes to acknowledge their talent?

Female drummers are a minority in the drumming world, for sure, but they are as good and bad as any male drummers, to assume that a gender defines "good" or "bad" is utterly ridiculous, in drumming or any other instruments
(Almost missed this one at the bottom of the previous page - my apologies)

Because the women who post - 'female' drummer, to me, are suggesting that there is a different category, and are initially launching a sexist platform to be judged, as if it is a separate starting point (like the women's tee in golf).

And my comments may appear sexist, because sometimes - in real life - it works out that way. I don't always agree with it, doesn't make it not a reality. Life isn't as politically correct as we all wish.
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  #86  
Old 01-17-2013, 08:57 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Jasper,

Your "drumming is inherently masculine" angle is way off the beam, you might like to check out the book "When the Drummers Were Women: A Spiritual History of Rhythm".

The reason why not so many women play drums drum is a traditional stereotype based on patriarchal suppression. In short, it would read "Men are strong, women are weak. Drumming is a robust activity and it is unfitting of a lady to do such an activity". I have spoken with many women who have expressed a wish to play drums, but they say they "can't". What they mean is they are afraid of being judged as masculine.

Do you see a lot of men playing the harp? Genetic predisposition? I wonder how many guys don't do dancing when they are young because it's perceived as feminine in the world of brain-dead jocks?

Meanwhile, fundamentalist Islamists will tell you that women are unsuited to being educated because we are unable to reason logically. Some nice irony there, no?
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  #87  
Old 01-17-2013, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Yes, there are a lot of male harp players.
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  #88  
Old 01-17-2013, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by vxla View Post
Yes, there are a lot of male harp players.
Just as there are a lot of female drummers.
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  #89  
Old 01-17-2013, 09:02 PM
vxla vxla is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Righty-o.

Now let's get out of this pointless rabbit hole of a discussion.
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  #90  
Old 01-17-2013, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

We already did, X. I'd never seen an orchestra on TV with a featured male harpist. You let me know that any stereotype derived from that observation would be invalid. Problem solved.

I won't defend my initial observation (which is completely compatible with your reply) by speculating that men are less genetically predisposed to the qualities needed to play harp ...
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  #91  
Old 01-17-2013, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Amodeo View Post
I could post these all day....but this should get the point across
Anthony, I just visited this thread after avoiding it for obvious reasons, and the examples you posted are superb (isn't Hilary just wonderful :)), but there's a ton of female drummers out there who don't play in heels, don't hit the headlines, & don't play the "cute" card. Just bloody good & humble hard working drummers facing the same challenges as we all do. They're all our drumming brothers!

Just to add to our list: http://youtu.be/-FZQuLQuZG0?hd=1
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  #92  
Old 01-17-2013, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Anthony, I just visited this thread after avoiding it for obvious reasons, and the examples you posted are superb (isn't Hilary just wonderful :)), but there's a ton of female drummers out there who don't play in heels, don't hit the headlines, & don't play the "cute" card. Just bloody good & humble hard working drummers facing the same challenges as we all do. They're all our drumming brothers!

Just to add to our list: http://youtu.be/-FZQuLQuZG0?hd=1
Rock solid jam session going on there, excellent drumming. That said, OMG! super sweet drums. My first time checking out Guru and all I can say is no EQ on that mix? Thats a beautiful sounding kit.
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  #93  
Old 01-17-2013, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Male vs. Female drummer hasn't ever occurred to me.
When I started in 1975, there was a girl in the drum section. She was good too.
When I got into high school, there were 4 or 5 girls in the drum line who were all good drummers.
I had 2 or 3 different drum instructors that were female over a few summers.
My first girlfriend was a drummer, but she didn't play after high school.

One thing I noticed in the recent DRUM! issue of 200 Greatest...
They listed that Viola Smith was billed as the FIRST "Female Drummer" because she was in a Gretsch ad in 1939, and in a movie.

Not to disparage her accomplishments, but.....
Pffffffffffffttttttttttttttttt!! I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different "All female" groups. She had "billing" in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.

Cindy Blackman is one of my favorite drummers. She's very nice too.
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  #94  
Old 01-17-2013, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by gr82bagn View Post
Rock solid jam session going on there, excellent drumming. That said, OMG! super sweet drums. My first time checking out Guru and all I can say is no EQ on that mix? Thats a beautiful sounding kit.
On behalf of Michele, thank you:) & thanks for your kind words on the kit too. First half of the video is 3 mic's only, second half is with close mic's too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post

One thing I noticed in the recent DRUM! issue of 200 Greatest...
They listed that Viola Smith was billed as the FIRST "Female Drummer" because she was in a Gretsch ad in 1939, and in a movie.

Not to disparage her accomplishments, but.....
Pffffffffffffttttttttttttttttt!! I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different "All female" groups. She had "billing" in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.
Wow, now that's something very special :)
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  #95  
Old 01-18-2013, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

I like it. I wish I had started youtube, would be a multi millionare today.
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  #96  
Old 01-18-2013, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by KarlCrafton View Post
I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different "All female" groups. She had "billing" in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.
Karl, was she to the best of your knowledge the first women drumkit drummer?
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  #97  
Old 01-18-2013, 03:17 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Jasper,

Your "drumming is inherently masculine" angle is way off the beam, you might like to check out the book "When the Drummers Were Women: A Spiritual History of Rhythm".

The reason why not so many women play drums drum is a traditional stereotype based on patriarchal suppression. In short, it would read "Men are strong, women are weak. Drumming is a robust activity and it is unfitting of a lady to do such an activity". I have spoken with many women who have expressed a wish to play drums, but they say they "can't". What they mean is they are afraid of being judged as masculine.

Do you see a lot of men playing the harp? Genetic predisposition? I wonder how many guys don't do dancing when they are young because it's perceived as feminine in the world of brain-dead jocks?

Meanwhile, fundamentalist Islamists will tell you that women are unsuited to being educated because we are unable to reason logically. Some nice irony there, no?
I simply stated PERHAPS it is a masculine trait. I personally don't feel that there is any actual testing of genetic predispositions for various instruments. I was just merely speculating.

The mere fact that we all enrolled on this website, is a testament to the devotion some of us have towards our instrument, willing to share our knowledge and experience with others for the benefit of the community. I honestly do not feel anything I've said (or posted) will change anybody's opinion of themselves.

There were plenty of female drummers back in my school days, and in the drumlines I've marched with. I've played along side many female drummers. Like I said, I didn't just come up with my observations out of thin air. I didn't put females in certain chair sequences, or judge their ability. I simply watched what happened. I encourage all musicians to pursue their goals.

In fact, I'd like to help change my perception, along with those people who see the same things I do. But - my issue with that is self-conflicting. How does one encourage females to do something, without being sexist in the first place?
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  #98  
Old 01-18-2013, 07:38 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Interesting discussion

signed,

Vida (girl drummer in Chicago)
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  #99  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
I simply stated PERHAPS it is a masculine trait. I personally don't feel that there is any actual testing of genetic predispositions for various instruments. I was just merely speculating.
Oh well, then your speculation was questionable. In matters of skill I think you will find far greater difference within genders than between them.

Males tend to have more fast-twitch fibres in their muscles so that may be your angle, but I don't equate speed with quality as a musician and but some people seem to think the acrobatic component of music is paramount (I see speed as one of the least important things in drumming, except in a few genres and subgenres).


Quote:
Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
There were plenty of female drummers back in my school days, and in the drumlines I've marched with. I've played along side many female drummers. Like I said, I didn't just come up with my observations out of thin air. I didn't put females in certain chair sequences, or judge their ability. I simply watched what happened. I encourage all musicians to pursue their goals.

In fact, I'd like to help change my perception, along with those people who see the same things I do. But - my issue with that is self-conflicting. How does one encourage females to do something, without being sexist in the first place?
Happy to help you change your perception.

You have based your speculation on 3.5 billion people on a handful of girls in your old school - a particular place in a particular time with a particular culture with a particular availability of role models with particular instructors and the girls had their individual family situations, who will have attitudes about women on drums (as opposed to girls on drums - a lot of girls quit sports prematurely too).

Add society's stereotypical views about gender and drummers and you have far too many qualifying and mitigating factors to allow for valid speculation about comparative physiological aptitude.
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  #100  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as "girl drummers"? We don't say "boy drummer" although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much.
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  #101  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:40 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as "girl drummers"? We don't say "boy drummer" although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much.
hmm yes, but we do say male model, male prostitute and male nurse.
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  #102  
Old 01-18-2013, 09:48 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Referring to the gender is fine, it's the difference between the use of the word "girl" vs the word female. If we said "boy" model I don't the the male models would like it very much. ;)
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  #103  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Unless you're talking about someone under the age of, say, 14, it's pretty offensive, especially in the context of a conversation about “girls” being crappy drummers who unfairly hog all the YouTube hits. It's not a whole lot better than calling an adult African-American male “boy”— there's the same ongoing history of belittling there. To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.
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  #104  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:28 PM
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Fair points about girl vs woman, although it should be said that the circle turns and sometimes when one reaches a certain age, being called a girl or chick again is ... refreshing.

It's true that "girl" and "boy" can be to help enforce subjugated status, but it's pretty well never the case on this site. These words are almost invariably coming from young males whose world consists of "guys and girls" - no intent, no harm, no foul IMO
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  #105  
Old 01-18-2013, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Karl, was she to the best of your knowledge the first women drumkit drummer?
I see what you mean, but if I remember the piece correctly, they didn't list VS as the first "drum kit" player. Could be wrong, but I don't recall "drum kit" being singled out.
It was Gretsch publicity too, so they'd say whatever they wanted in an advertisement for a pretty lady on their drums.

I have no idea on how "rare" she was as a drummer. She and her sisters were all in Vaudeville at an early age (under 12 for sure) though.

I don't have any pics of my Grandmother on a "tensionable lugs on both heads" kind of kit from back then. She probably played what was a "trap" kit with a Chinese tom, snare and all that.
I have a pic of her when she was older on a Radio King 4 piece kit.
I have pics of my Grandfather on a tunable kit, and some marching pics of him.

This is the only pic I have available on PB of her ATM--Nelly Jay and her Jay Birds--think this is 1926


If I only had that bass drum.... :-)

I have A bass drum (Leedy), but not this one.
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  #106  
Old 01-18-2013, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Blah blah blah blah blah.

How’s our favourite dead horse doing?

In the UK (correct me if I’m wrong), “boy” is a pretty normal term for any male human. Not insulting at all.

And while we’re picking nits, “gender” has little to do with “male” and “female”: those are sexes, not genders per se.

Here’s my (completely unsupported) theory on why there are so few female drummers: women in the Western world are taught from a very young age that it’s somehow wrong to sit with legs apart, so sitting at a kit with a snare drum in the normal position causes mental anguish (conscious or otherwise) which manifests as a general uncomfortable feeling about drumming. Or, similarly, our young wannabe-drummer may have a great desire to play, but she’s put off by thoughts that other people will judge her as un-ladylike, which is, again, something she’s been taught to avoid. (Note, however, that this argument seems irrelevant when you look at the large number of female cellists. Go figure.)
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  #107  
Old 01-18-2013, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Fair points about girl vs woman, although it should be said that the circle turns and sometimes when one reaches a certain age, being called a girl or chick again is ... refreshing.

It's true that "girl" and "boy" can be to help enforce subjugated status, but it's pretty well never the case on this site. These words are almost invariably coming from young males whose world consists of "guys and girls" - no intent, no harm, no foul IMO
I think most of the time the word "girl" isn't intended to be offensive. Most guys toss the word around without really thinking about it. It is inappropriate to refer to adult women who play the drums as "girl drummers" though. I see your point about it coming full circle after a certain age. It's like reaching that point when your flattered to get carded for beer. :)

Karl, that picture is amazing! I need to learn more about these women.
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  #108  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:03 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

The question really is: Aren't there more male musicians then female around generally? (And I rather mean professional adults)
So it probably has nothing to do with anything drumming specific I guess.
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  #109  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:20 AM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
Unless you're talking about someone under the age of, say, 14, it's pretty offensive, especially in the context of a conversation about “girls” being crappy drummers who unfairly hog all the YouTube hits. It's not a whole lot better than calling an adult African-American male “boy”— there's the same ongoing history of belittling there. To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.
Doesn't really ring true in the UK. Boys and Girls are 'usually' the term for children but there is no sense of offence if it's used for adults.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:49 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post
Oh well, then your speculation was questionable. In matters of skill I think you will find far greater difference within genders than between them.

Males tend to have more fast-twitch fibres in their muscles so that may be your angle, but I don't equate speed with quality as a musician and but some people seem to think the acrobatic component of music is paramount (I see speed as one of the least important things in drumming, except in a few genres and subgenres).




Happy to help you change your perception.

You have based your speculation on 3.5 billion people on a handful of girls in your old school - a particular place in a particular time with a particular culture with a particular availability of role models with particular instructors and the girls had their individual family situations, who will have attitudes about women on drums (as opposed to girls on drums - a lot of girls quit sports prematurely too).

Add society's stereotypical views about gender and drummers and you have far too many qualifying and mitigating factors to allow for valid speculation about comparative physiological aptitude.
Regarding different muscle fibers - I was not at all referring to the physical ability, rather the mental framework. We've all learned in life that various activities are usually more mental than physical. I believe that drumming is a LOT of neurological training.

I'm amused by the amount of misconceptions and assumptions being made about me personally. Not sure how that equates to this topic (as if I base this off of a particular moment in time in one specific area).

So if there are too many factors allowing speculation, I should just turn my pens and pencils in, and accept that nothing can explain it, but I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
The question really is: Aren't there more male musicians then female around generally? (And I rather mean professional adults)
So it probably has nothing to do with anything drumming specific I guess.
This. Just last night I was at a show. Of the 11 bands that played - there were two female musicians. One was a bass player/vocalist. A guy turns to me and says,"I love girl bass players. I think they're hot."

She wasn't impressive as bass player, but that didn't stop my friends from being amazed.

This observation does span across more instruments (and also reverse with a few, where I've seen more females excel than males), I was just trying to stay within the context of drumming.


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Originally Posted by Jostne View Post
Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as "girl drummers"? We don't say "boy drummer" although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much.
Yeah, PC isn't for me. If people get offended by being called girl (within the context of girls/guys, even though it has been gals/guys vs girls/boys) - there are bigger issues here.
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  #111  
Old 01-19-2013, 12:56 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
... To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.
Yeah, I enjoy this aspect of discussions...

My observations appear to be sexist, but then if I attempt to equal the results, then there is more sexism. There is no place for political correctness (unless you are attempting to be elected to a political office).

If I say that more male drivers race cars than women, I'm sexist - right?
It is my observation. How is that wrong?
Are there female drivers? OF COURSE!
Can women race cars? YES!
Can women race cars well? YES!
Is race car driving dominated by men? YES!
Is it politically correct to say any of this? I don't care - it is true, based on my observation.

Now replace race car drivers with drummers. Everything still fits.

*edit: It may very well be a sheer numbers thing - i.e. 1 in 100 drummers would be exceptional, 5 in 100 would be great, maybe 2 of those 100 drummers might be female. So where they fall in could be anywhere in that group of 100. If there were more participants, then perhaps numbers would fall in line. Nobody here is trying to suggest that those two females can't excel, but rather the odds of those two being seen is a rarity (unfortunately). But if 98% (arbitrary assignment) participants are male, there is a large percentage the exceptional ones will be male. I just haven't found that sample of the 2 (or overwhelming minority) excel in that group. I've always seemed to have seen the average (in rare cases, above average - but then is my perception skewed?).

Last edited by JasperGTR; 01-19-2013 at 01:22 AM.
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  #112  
Old 01-19-2013, 01:05 AM
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opentune opentune is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
I've already conceded this with my earlier posts. In fact, I think I pretty much opened with this. I don't disagree with you (except for the book reading thing - I don't see how this would help me see better drumming). I have every right to make assertions based on my present observations. And I'm here to learn as well.

If someone approaches you and says,"Regarding this topic, I don't agree."

Do you respond and say,"Well you're wrong."
Yes indeed IF I know what someone is stating is not factual, in other words has no *hard data* behind it. A few personal observations are not data, sample size is small and inherently biased already (for example maybe your observations are in all male clubs, or in clubs with music that does not attract many females). Look at how many musicians there are, and then how many are female, and so on.

The book reading helps. This is about opening your mind to the work showing that gender bias exists everywhere and there are simple historical and culture reasons for it (see post by Anduin) that we can easily all be aware of (and that still don;t make it right)

Its like this .....When little Sally shows an interest in music, the drums are the last thing her parents would talk her into. This was the case in 1930, 1950 , 1980 and is only maybe slowly changing today.
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  #113  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:07 AM
Jostne Jostne is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by JasperGTR View Post
Yeah, I enjoy this aspect of discussions...

My observations appear to be sexist, but then if I attempt to equal the results, then there is more sexism. There is no place for political correctness (unless you are attempting to be elected to a political office).

If I say that more male drivers race cars than women, I'm sexist - right?
It is my observation. How is that wrong?
Are there female drivers? OF COURSE!
Can women race cars? YES!
Can women race cars well? YES!
Is race car driving dominated by men? YES!
Is it politically correct to say any of this? I don't care - it is true, based on my observation.

Now replace race car drivers with drummers. Everything still fits.

*edit: It may very well be a sheer numbers thing - i.e. 1 in 100 drummers would be exceptional, 5 in 100 would be great, maybe 2 of those 100 drummers might be female. So where they fall in could be anywhere in that group of 100. If there were more participants, then perhaps numbers would fall in line. Nobody here is trying to suggest that those two females can't excel, but rather the odds of those two being seen is a rarity (unfortunately). But if 98% (arbitrary assignment) participants are male, there is a large percentage the exceptional ones will be male. I just haven't found that sample of the 2 (or overwhelming minority) excel in that group. I've always seemed to have seen the average (in rare cases, above average - but then is my perception skewed?).
There's nothing sexist about observing that there are fewer female drummers, of course! It's just a fact. Is someone arguing that it is? I'm late to the party here so maybe that was a previous argument. To American women it's just more respectful to say " women" or "female" vs "girl" when you are referring to them in a non-playful manner. And it's a double standard when men are not called "boys" in the same manner that women are called "girls", typically. That's just another fact. And thank you for saying "female" in your last post instead of "girl". See, you really do listen even though you pretend not to. ;) ;) ;)
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  #114  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:20 AM
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rmandelbaum rmandelbaum is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Male female, who cares?

A great musician is a great musician.
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  #115  
Old 01-19-2013, 02:21 AM
JasperGTR JasperGTR is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Yes indeed IF I know what someone is stating is not factual, in other words has no *hard data* behind it. A few personal observations are not data, sample size is small and inherently biased already (for example maybe your observations are in all male clubs, or in clubs with music that does not attract many females). Look at how many musicians there are, and then how many are female, and so on.

The book reading helps. This is about opening your mind to the work showing that gender bias exists everywhere and there are simple historical and culture reasons for it (see post by Anduin) that we can easily all be aware of (and that still don;t make it right)

Its like this .....When little Sally shows an interest in music, the drums are the last thing her parents would talk her into. This was the case in 1930, 1950 , 1980 and is only maybe slowly changing today.
While your points are valid, I don't need any further proof of gender bias. Anyone who has been alive for more than 15 minutes sees this everyday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jostne View Post
There's nothing sexist about observing that there are fewer female drummers, of course! It's just a fact. Is someone arguing that it is? I'm late to the party here so maybe that was a previous argument. To American women it's just more respectful to say " women" or "female" vs "girl" when you are referring to them in a non-playful manner. And it's a double standard when men are not called "boys" in the same manner that women are called "girls", typically. That's just another fact. And thank you for saying "female" in your last post instead of "girl". See, you really do listen even though you pretend not to. ;) ;) ;)
This has been a moving target. You haven't missed much.

I usually say female. That was a mistake, though - because the original post was about 'girl' drummers. So my use of the term 'female' was incorrect. Please disregard.

But basically, this has originated on the premise that 'girl' drummers get more views on youtube videos (or attention in general), simply because they are female, and not their ability to play the drums well (or any better than their male/boy counterparts). And the term of 'girl' is sometimes used correctly. I saw a video with two qualifiers ~ "great girl drummers (for her age)". Uuuggghh.
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  #116  
Old 01-19-2013, 05:03 AM
Jostne Jostne is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Yeah, Jasper, getting back to your original point I think I agree with you. Women are gonna stand out because it is still relatively unusual to see a female behind the drums and therefore garner more attention. That and they are better to look at. Well, usually anyway. It's rarer still to see a REALLY GREAT female drummer, too. Not for any reason other than there are less of us around.
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  #117  
Old 01-19-2013, 06:06 AM
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Anon La Ply Anon La Ply is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

Jasper, no one's arguing against facts, just questioning some of your other comments, like:

Quote:
Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait. Obviously there are women with masculine traits, just as there men who have feminine traits (I have an odd ability to pick out shoes and clothes for my wife).
I'm a rather ordinary female drummer who would seemingly prove your point. Yet I still can't see the genetics in it - not with drums, not with any instrument. Music is one of the most gender neutral things you can do. Certainly at school the guys on the footy team won't think of the guys in the music room as macho.

Yet, most musicians are male, apart from maybe orchestras. I think the most important reason behind this is that women aren't encouraged to play instruments - we are supposed to sing and dance and look pretty and poised for the guys. While some men dig sweaty Amazons (fortunately), princesses are far more in demand ... and a proper lady does not chuck a spread around a snare drum and get all boisterous and sweaty on the drum kit!

The other reason major reason is that gigging and motherhood are an especially tricky juggle.

It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, but I can't see how there could be an aptitude difference. It's environmental.
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  #118  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:05 AM
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Sinmara Sinmara is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

I sometimes dread to read the comments underneath a youtube video of a girl drumming, some of them are so obnoxious that even I get angry.... I mean, I've been drumming for a year now, and I had some pretty stupid comments thrown into my face when I said I want to drum in a black metal band. (Women shouldn't do black metal, women can't drum black metal, yadda yadda yadda. One even laughed straight into my face...) Oh well, fuck them.

Some girls are drumming in high heels in the youtube videos (why!!! I don't get it! It's the same with driving a car in high heels. I just don't get it.) Respect if you can do it, you know, but why make it more difficult than it is already.
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  #119  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:08 AM
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Sinmara Sinmara is offline
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by rmandelbaum View Post
Male female, who cares?

A great musician is a great musician.
Exactly, I couldn't give a hoot about the gender.
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  #120  
Old 01-19-2013, 10:52 AM
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Default Re: Girl drummers

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Originally Posted by Anon La Ply View Post

It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums,
I think there are, but almost always a positive aspect of female drummers. Less testosterone is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Almost every female drummer I meet places a far greater emphasis on the song, & is often far better at using dynamics to express rather than relying on flash. To sum up, I think most female drummers, at least the ones who play well, are less selfish in their approach to the instrument.

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Originally Posted by Sinmara View Post
Some girls are drumming in high heels in the youtube videos (why!!!
let me start by saying, that prick who laughed in your face is a turd of a human. He will reap the benefits of his own prejudice for sure.

Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Although that may do them some good on the surface, I don't think it helps their case as a musician to be taken seriously, & it certainly feeds the stereo typing of a gender in drumming. I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but there's a time & a place for that, & it's not behind a kit.
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