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  #81  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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If you don't like it, don't read it. Nobody forced you to click, or to get offended for no reason. Why do you feel that other people who can handle a bit of disagreement shouldn't be able to discuss this in the dedicated "off topic" section of the forum?
I'm not personally against discussions like this, but when you start talking more and more about things like this, you start looking at the forum differently. It is a drumming forum after all. I'm not offended, but I would hate to see a forum this good get a bunch of people on just wanting to talk politics and argue. People are arguing about politics all over the internet, and some people want to relax and read about drumming and other topics they are interested in. Sure, I can ignore a thread, but every time a new thread like this comes up, someone else gets an idea of starting another politically-based thread. There have been more than one threads recently closed because of a couple of political threads, some didn't even start that way, but that was how they ended up. I can get on these threads and argue all day, but I don't want to give others bad impressions of me because I always want to argue. I would rather this forum stay peaceful rather than turn into a bunch of debates.

Understand it is nothing personal, but many people like this site and this forum. Why let new members look at this and see arguing and politics? This really will not make this site more useful or enjoyable.
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  #82  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I see what you're getting at, but the argument doesn't hold water for me in the "off topic" section where it's assumed things will be a bit different and less moderated. If a politics discussion came up in the general forum, it would be moved or removed, I'm quite sure.
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  #83  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I've just heard that the off topic section was not for politics or religion. If they are allowing that then I am fine with it being in an off topic section rather than in the drumming parts. I don't want to come across as a loser or someone hating politics. I get into plenty of arguments about politics, but I would rather argue politics with someone face to face rather than online. I'm just giving my opinion. Of the moderators are fine with it and nobody is offended, then just go ahead and I won't bother y'all anymore.
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  #84  
Old 12-28-2012, 01:42 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

But if we can talk about this stuff in a civilised and genial manner (as opposed to arguing) then that says something good about drummers.

Bear in mind that the arts and intoxicants have been close bedfellows forever. There is a reason for that ...
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  #85  
Old 12-28-2012, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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But if we can talk about this stuff in a civilised and genial manner (as opposed to arguing) then that says something good about drummers.
Unfortunately, I think he may be partly right in that it's really hard for most people to speak on these subjects without getting emotional in some manner. Even so, I consider a lot of you my friends, and I'd hate to not have the ability to discuss sensitive matters with people who's opinion I may actually value.

True rule offenses should be dealt with the same regardless of the thread context. Intentionally abusive name calling, for example, should be met with admin action in this thread, or any other.

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Bear in mind that the arts and intoxicants have been close bedfellows forever. There is a reason for that ...
Beyond the obvious answer that a "head change" makes you think and create in new ways, I have also been thinking that a lot of musicians/artists are by nature "outcasts" from the white-collar rest of the upper class world that values monetary production over creativity and outlet.

I've also noticed that outcasts tend to think on their own more where societal rules are concerned. Myself included. I fully support laws that protect against willful harm to others. At the same time, I have never respected any law which is basically a rule against potentially harming myself, or anything resembling thought/speech-crime. I truly value my personal freedoms, and I think we need to be more honest about the way we use government to try and enforce one set of values, instead of using government to protect the freedom to have your own values as it should be.
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  #86  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

Watso, that's several sensible posts in a row for each of us - without even one glib comment!

... until now :)
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  #87  
Old 12-28-2012, 06:13 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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Unfortunately, I think he may be partly right in that it's really hard for most people to speak on these subjects without getting emotional in some manner. Even so, I consider a lot of you my friends, and I'd hate to not have the ability to discuss sensitive matters with people who's opinion I may actually value.

True rule offenses should be dealt with the same regardless of the thread context. Intentionally abusive name calling, for example, should be met with admin action in this thread, or any other.

Beyond the obvious answer that a "head change" makes you think and create in new ways, I have also been thinking that a lot of musicians/artists are by nature "outcasts" from the white-collar rest of the upper class world that values monetary production over creativity and outlet.

I've also noticed that outcasts tend to think on their own more where societal rules are concerned. Myself included. I fully support laws that protect against willful harm to others. At the same time, I have never respected any law which is basically a rule against potentially harming myself, or anything resembling thought/speech-crime. I truly value my personal freedoms, and I think we need to be more honest about the way we use government to try and enforce one set of values, instead of using government to protect the freedom to have your own values as it should be.
Using drugs to supposedly become more creative or change things is a Western shortcut and cop out. History of is full of people who are/were just as creative and vital as any drug addict or alcoholic. And they usually lived long, productive lives and influenced others over spans of 50 years and more.
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  #88  
Old 12-28-2012, 06:39 AM
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Using drugs to supposedly become more creative or change things is a Western shortcut and cop out. History of is full of people who are/were just as creative and vital as any drug addict or alcoholic. And they usually lived long, productive lives and influenced others over spans of 50 years and more.
Yes, and since we are all exactly the same (with the same genetics, gifts, same proclivities and upbringing) then our creative and recreational lives should work exactly the same for all of us. Right?

"Different strokes for different strokes" is a truism, not a platitude.

It is also a cop out to be fearful of exploring your boundaries and potentials due to arbitrary rules set down by people with agendas. Then again, a lot of people cop out in life and that's okay. It's very hard to live an impressive life given that we are basically confused sacks of gooey protoplasm with a short life span held together by a relatively fragile covering of skin. The miracle is that anyone gets their shit together.

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  #89  
Old 12-28-2012, 07:13 AM
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Using drugs to supposedly become more creative or change things is a Western shortcut and cop out.
You didn't think about this for very long before you wrote it, or just didn't convey what you meant. Research and exploration show that our ancestors used various intoxicants and poisons to alter their minds and expand creative thought going back much farther than was ever recorded intentionally. Intoxication is a part of our history, and what we are today. Every single thing we do, experience and think changes the structure of our brains and therefor our thought patterns and neural pathways.

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History of is full of people who are/were just as creative and vital as any drug addict or alcoholic. And they usually lived long, productive lives and influenced others over spans of 50 years and more.
I can completely agree. Attempting to argue that intoxication has no creative value, however, seems to be coming from a somewhat mis-informed viewpoint.

When we enforce our laws in ways that can literally destroy everything a person has worked for, the laws we choose to enforce should not pertain to preventing personal harm to self... Back more specifically to the issue of cannabis; considering that the laws do not prevent cannabis use or production(and fail to do so at huge taxpayer cost), it is more than clear to me that the illegality of cannabis causes more total harm than the substance itself.
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  #90  
Old 12-28-2012, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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Goodbye Glen! May the moderators continue to treat you fairly at every juncture!
Sweepstake?

How long until he pops up again?

I'll give him a week!
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  #91  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:01 PM
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Sweepstake?

How long until he pops up again?

I'll give him a week!
I'm tempted to set a up a Google Calendar with bets on it. We could have two bets. 'Date of Registration' and 'Date of Discovery'. We could even have three if we include 'Date of Subsequent Re-banning'.

Any takers?
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  #92  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:17 PM
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I'm tempted to set a up a Google Calendar with bets on it. We could have two bets. 'Date of Registration' and 'Date of Discovery'. We could even have three if we include 'Date of Subsequent Re-banning'.

Any takers?
and maybe a section for next name?

I think he'll comeback as "reallyshouldtakeahint"!
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  #93  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

Funnily enough, that does read like a Glen username.
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  #94  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:28 PM
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and maybe a section for next name?

I think he'll comeback as "reallyshouldtakeahint"!
The worldwide breaking record of being banned by a single member within a year? I make it the 8th ban this time round...Glen must love this place as much as I do.
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  #95  
Old 12-28-2012, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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You didn't think about this for very long before you wrote it, or just didn't convey what you meant. Research and exploration show that our ancestors used various intoxicants and poisons to alter their minds and expand creative thought going back much farther than was ever recorded intentionally. Intoxication is a part of our history, and what we are today. Every single thing we do, experience and think changes the structure of our brains and therefor our thought patterns and neural pathways.

I can completely agree. Attempting to argue that intoxication has no creative value, however, seems to be coming from a somewhat mis-informed viewpoint.

When we enforce our laws in ways that can literally destroy everything a person has worked for, the laws we choose to enforce should not pertain to preventing personal harm to self... Back more specifically to the issue of cannabis; considering that the laws do not prevent cannabis use or production(and fail to do so at huge taxpayer cost), it is more than clear to me that the illegality of cannabis causes more total harm than the substance itself.
Agreed, intoxication is part of what people do and changes what they do. Sometimes, intoxication may produce insights that wouldn't occur otherwise, as can be done with exercise, meditation or other intense experiences. But that change is neutral - seeing an intricate florentine pattern in a carpet on LSD, for example, might inspire someone to draw or play total garbage as much as great music.

Drugs aren't a substitute for practice, study or experience. For every useful insight they produce, they produce poor judgment. And I'm not even getting into the whole aspect of risks to life and safety or showing up on time - people who aren't stoned tend to have better work habits.

I support cannabis being illegal, a minority view on this board but a very mainstream view everywhere else. The more drugs we make legal, the more people will use them.
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  #96  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:26 AM
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Agreed, intoxication is part of what people do and changes what they do. Sometimes, intoxication may produce insights that wouldn't occur otherwise, as can be done with exercise, meditation or other intense experiences.
So what makes one "experience" more valid than another?

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But that change is neutral
I don't understand what you mean. What is neutral about the way intoxication changes someone's thoughts? Perhaps you meant a different term?

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seeing an intricate florentine pattern in a carpet on LSD, for example, might inspire someone to draw or play total garbage as much as great music.
This just makes me think you really don't have a clue about the subject we're discussing here. LSD is one of the most powerful mind-altering substances ever created or discovered.

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Drugs aren't a substitute for practice, study or experience.
I certainly never said they were. They aren't. You're not going to be a master artist or musician as the result of mind-alteration. What you might get, however, is a change in thought pattern which leads to creativity which might never have been spurred in a normal state.

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For every useful insight they produce, they produce poor judgment.
Nonsense. People use intoxicants responsibly and with excellent judgement all over the world, every day. The freedom to make our own choices, and mistakes, along with their consequences is what this country should be about. If I can use guns responsibly, it is childish and unfair to take them away from me because some other idiot shot someone when they were not acting responsibly.

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And I'm not even getting into the whole aspect of risks to life and safety or showing up on time - people who aren't stoned tend to have better work habits.
Irrelevant to this discussion. People who aren't drunk tend to have better work habits too. And finally, people with poor work habits get fired, as they should. It is irresponsible to come to your employment intoxicated in any way.

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I support cannabis being illegal,
From what I can tell, there's no real logic in your view here, which is what I've been trying to get at.

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a minority view on this board but a very mainstream view everywhere else.
This is not true, especially where cannabis is concerned. Increasingly people are seeing exactly how stupid it is to fight a "war" on a natural plant; a war we have no hope of winning, or even making a dent in. People are waking up and seeing that really, it's just not a big deal. It is easily comparable to alcohol, and proven to be far less dangerous in nearly every conceivable way.

Quote:
The more drugs we make legal, the more people will use them.
Why is that your business to tell them what they can do to, or with their own body? Why is it that you hate the idea of people being free to live how they want? I shake my head when I see someone kill themselves with whiskey, but I would die to support their right to do so.
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  #97  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

The idea of seeking transcendence through meditation and art is a noble ideal. But not everyone is ready to seek self actualisation - half the time we're flat out dealing with money, work, relationships, philias, phobias and whatever bats are in our belfry at the time.

So, Matrin, it seems you are saying that untogether people should be denied transcendent experiences until they've sorted out their problems and become capable of achieving inner peace and Zen states through the "natural" means of discipline and control? Yes?

However, if they never manage to get their heads together then it's a matter of "oh well, they missed out on peak experiences in this life" - too bad. There's always McDonald's and Warner Bros for the hoi polloi.

Peak experiences are often turning points in our lives, through insights that allow us to open up psychological blockages. Western society is a little squeamish about peak experiences - I guess too many snake oil salesmen will do that. While science is only touching on inter-dimensional realities, they appear to be accessible via the non rational part of our mind (the bit that creates great music).

Thing is, you can tell people that there is power around us we can tap into if we open up and let ourselves, but until you've experienced it, it sounds like fantasy. I've had a couple of peak experiences in the past decade that have blown my conception of reality to smithereens. The first was in a very drug free period for me during a lunch break, the second was at around 3am in bed after an "insomnia cure" scoob.

The second one was easily the most powerful. I Googled the sensations and found that what I experienced was far from rare, often triggered by meditation rather than drugs. Yet I, a non meditator, got a glimpse.

Of course, drugs can also be the straw that breaks the camel's back. That's why the taboos are so harmful - people are always going to use drugs and the more they understand how they work and the difference between use and abuse, the less problems we'll have (and the more benefits from their use as "mental medicine"). As Watso said, some users have managed to work out how to use rather than abuse, despite the relative information blackout. (Thankful for the web).

Yet so often we are discouraged from talking about it, as though it will corrupt young 'uns, which is lazy, patronising and ineffective. I was kept in the dark by all the adults around me when I was young and look how I turned out :)

The sooner adults are treated like adults, the sooner they will start behaving like adults.
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  #98  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:57 AM
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I grew up in the most hippy, stoner environment you could ever imagine. I turned out OK. I'm only broke because the field I work in tanked so badly in 2008.

My sister doesn't do any drugs. She raised three girls who all went to college and graduated. She's got a teenage boy too. We'll see how he turns out.

I have a benign brain tumor that I live with. It was huge and caused terrible headaches in my 20's. Luckily there was a drug that helped me shrink that tumor. Now it doesn't bother me anymore and I haven't needed that pill for four years now. I've used that tumor as a way to get my Medical MJ Card a couple years ago because, as you know, California allows that. I leave it at home and only have some at night time. It's kinda ridiculous with all the stigma attached to a simple herb. But on the other hand, it's kinda ridiculous how many 20 something guys and gals I see going in and out of those MJ clinics. All these young people with all their "medical problems". When I was that age, I just smoked it because I wanted to, not for any medical reason. It's all kinda ridiculous because alcohol has caused so many tragedies. My own family is testament to that fact. Luckily my parents were never heavy drinkers. Moderation is the key and I am glad to have grown up in such a liberal environment. I got to see all the grown-ups make all those mistakes and I found out how not to live ones' life.
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  #99  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:04 AM
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I grew up in the most hippy, stoner environment you could ever imagine. I turned out OK. I'm only broke because the field I work in tanked so badly in 2008.

My sister doesn't do any drugs. She raised three girls who all went to college and graduated. She's got a teenage boy too. We'll see how he turns out.

I have a benign brain tumor that I live with. It was huge and caused terrible headaches in my 20's. Luckily there was a drug that helped me shrink that tumor. Now it doesn't bother me anymore and I haven't needed that pill for four years now. I've used that tumor as a way to get my Medical MJ Card a couple years ago because, as you know, California allows that. I leave it at home and only have some at night time. It's kinda ridiculous with all the stigma attached to a simple herb. But on the other hand, it's kinda ridiculous how many 20 something guys and gals I see going in and out of those MJ clinics. All these young people with all their "medical problems". When I was that age, I just smoked it because I wanted to, not for any medical reason. It's all kinda ridiculous because alcohol has caused so many tragedies. My own family is testament to that fact. Luckily my parents were never heavy drinkers. Moderation is the key and I am glad to have grown up in such a liberal environment. I got to see all the grown-ups make all those mistakes and I found out how not to live ones' life.
I largely agree with you. While I don't think pot should be legalized, if it is, it's not going to be the end of the world. I am glad you are able to use cannabis to help your medical condition. I tihnk tit does have legitimate uses as a prescribed drug.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:08 AM
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So what makes one "experience" more valid than another?

I don't understand what you mean. What is neutral about the way intoxication changes someone's thoughts? Perhaps you meant a different term?

This just makes me think you really don't have a clue about the subject we're discussing here. LSD is one of the most powerful mind-altering substances ever created or discovered.

I certainly never said they were. They aren't. You're not going to be a master artist or musician as the result of mind-alteration. What you might get, however, is a change in thought pattern which leads to creativity which might never have been spurred in a normal state.

Nonsense. People use intoxicants responsibly and with excellent judgement all over the world, every day. The freedom to make our own choices, and mistakes, along with their consequences is what this country should be about. If I can use guns responsibly, it is childish and unfair to take them away from me because some other idiot shot someone when they were not acting responsibly.

Irrelevant to this discussion. People who aren't drunk tend to have better work habits too. And finally, people with poor work habits get fired, as they should. It is irresponsible to come to your employment intoxicated in any way.

From what I can tell, there's no real logic in your view here, which is what I've been trying to get at.

This is not true, especially where cannabis is concerned. Increasingly people are seeing exactly how stupid it is to fight a "war" on a natural plant; a war we have no hope of winning, or even making a dent in. People are waking up and seeing that really, it's just not a big deal. It is easily comparable to alcohol, and proven to be far less dangerous in nearly every conceivable way.

Why is that your business to tell them what they can do to, or with their own body? Why is it that you hate the idea of people being free to live how they want? I shake my head when I see someone kill themselves with whiskey, but I would die to support their right to do so.
Everyone thinks there are some drugs that should be illegal, even some derived from a natural plant, like heroin. I just include a few more drugs in that category than you do. Unless you think heroin should be freely available in society.

By the way, you say I "don't have a clue" but I in turn find your views to be well-reasoned. I just don't agree with them, for reasons of my own, which I happen to think are more valid than yours. That means I respect you and your views - even if you don't reciprocate.
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Old 12-29-2012, 12:18 PM
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That means I respect you and your views - even if you don't reciprocate.
That's because you haven't actually engaged in discussion but just repeated your stance. Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe. Quite the contrary.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:37 PM
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That's because you haven't actually engaged in discussion but just repeated your stance. Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe. Quite the contrary.
All sorts of things are different in Europe socially and culturally. If it works for Europe - good for them! In the meantime, many Muslim and Asian nations effectively ban alcohol and all other drugs, yet their ways are not our ways and I'm not going to hold them up as effective models of drug control. I will support efforts to keep cannabis and even more destructive drugs illegal in the US (heroin, meth, synthetic drugs, prescription abuse, etc.). Alcohol and tobacco are bad enough and I don't necessarily buy slippery slope or sticky slope arguments.

I occasionally find statements that the US should become like Europe in any number of ways, or look to Europe for examples of various issues the US is dealing with. Um, no.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:42 PM
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That's because you haven't actually engaged in discussion but just repeated your stance. Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe. Quite the contrary.
If you'd care to clarify, I'd be interested in knowing if you support or oppose making all drugs legal and free from government control - heroin, meth, synthetics and even prescription drugs.

The mainstream view is that drugs do indeed need government control. Different people draw the lines in different places for particular drugs, but it is indeed rare to find someone who thinks people should have complete freedom of access to every substance man creates.
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Old 12-29-2012, 06:57 PM
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Alcohol and tobacco are bad enough and I don't necessarily buy slippery slope or sticky slope arguments.
Martin, we're not crims ... why spend billions criminalising the activities of otherwise well meaning, industrious people and in the process foster organised crime? Not counting the human cost of arrest imprisonment.

It's a huge own goal. As I said before, it's proven that abuse rates don't go up when it's legalised. Also, some people would switch from booze to pot, something that stressed workers in casualty wards would appreciate.
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  #105  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:14 PM
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Alcohol and tobacco are bad enough and I don't necessarily buy slippery slope or sticky slope arguments.
Alcohol has got a long list of regulations attached to sales and consumption, you cannot buy it if you're under age and there's a limit implied if you're driving, this doesn't stop the thousand's of accidents, victims and death related to alcohol, legalisation, prohibition or regulation doesn't stop something to be abused and creating chaos, and it applies to all rules.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:15 PM
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Martin, we're not crims ... why spend billions criminalising the activities of otherwise well meaning, industrious people and in the process foster organised crime? Not counting the human cost of arrest imprisonment.
This is what gets me. Criminally prosecuting people who have done nothing to anyone else. It's just wrong. We should be free to live how we want as long as we don't impinge on anyone else's similar right, period. You may have guessed by now, but I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms.

DMC: if you are the type to hit the bookstore once in a while, see if you can find a cheap copy of this book. It's really informative and stresses some of the same points I do. Here's the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain&#39...ness_If_You_Do

It's funny that the Europe thing has come up... I kind of agree with dmc on the stance that we shouldn't base our country on theirs, for what I feel is a good reason. We are different. We are a country that was supposedly founded on the right to freedoms. We came here to escape tyranny and unfair restrictions on freedoms. We need to stop using the government as a vehicle to try any legislate that everyone be exactly like we want them to be. If they aren't hurting someone else, leave them alone. It sickens me when people vote to disallow others the right to marry, or want to take everyone's firearms away because some people abuse them. I see people who support alcohol's legality, while simultaneously sitting on some moral high horse about something as harmless as pot, and I admit, it makes me a bit irritated. It's beyond directly hypocritical.

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Old 12-29-2012, 07:34 PM
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Some of the people I know are a little upset that it is becoming legal here in California. The market is saturated with excellent bud and nobody can move their stuff anymore. People have to take huge cuts on their profits just to get rid of it.

But one of the major problems I see in keeping it illegal is the environmental damage that is caused to our waterways by the growers up there in mountains. At least if it's legal, it can be grown and regulated like a normal crop. Certain conditions and restrictions would have to be adhered to.
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Old 12-29-2012, 07:48 PM
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Some of the people I know are a little upset that it is becoming legal here in California. The market is saturated with excellent bud and nobody can move their stuff anymore. People have to take huge cuts on their profits just to get rid of it.
The only reason anyone can make so much money on that stuff is because it's illegal. I don't feel very sorry for them, because the illegality also kills people and ruins lives.
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Old 12-29-2012, 08:07 PM
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The only reason anyone can make so much money on that stuff is because it's illegal. I don't feel very sorry for them, because the illegality also kills people and ruins lives.
Ya, I agree that it should be legalized. People just have to evolve and adapt.
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Old 12-29-2012, 10:55 PM
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This is what gets me. Criminally prosecuting people who have done nothing to anyone else. It's just wrong. We should be free to live how we want as long as we don't impinge on anyone else's similar right, period. You may have guessed by now, but I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms.

DMC: if you are the type to hit the bookstore once in a while, see if you can find a cheap copy of this book. It's really informative and stresses some of the same points I do. Here's the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain&#39...ness_If_You_Do

It's funny that the Europe thing has come up... I kind of agree with dmc on the stance that we shouldn't base our country on theirs, for what I feel is a good reason. We are different. We are a country that was supposedly founded on the right to freedoms. We came here to escape tyranny and unfair restrictions on freedoms. We need to stop using the government as a vehicle to try any legislate that everyone be exactly like we want them to be. If they aren't hurting someone else, leave them alone. It sickens me when people vote to disallow others the right to marry, or want to take everyone's firearms away because some people abuse them. I see people who support alcohol's legality, while simultaneously sitting on some moral high horse about something as harmless as pot, and I admit, it makes me a bit irritated. It's beyond directly hypocritical.
I'd be interested in knowing whether or not you support the legalization of all substances - including natural heroin, meth, synthetic drugs, LSD and more. Under the argument you present above, I infer you support legalizing anything and everything - anything available at the time of this nation's founding was indeed legal and the Constitution is printed on hemp.

The mainstream view is that everything that gets people high needs to be either regulated (alcohol), allowed only by prescription (cannabis) or completely banned (meth). People draw lines differently for their own substances - but they do agree lines need to be drawn. Reasonable people can disagree with where the lines are drawn and may choose to discuss these things without calling each other unreasonable, hypocrites, etc.
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:16 PM
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Re: Europe ... what I said was "Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe". I didn't say the US should be more like Europe - that was just Martin using my post to go riding one of his hobby horses.

If there were problems with regulation in Europe then prohibitionists would be citing stats from there. True, Europe is not the US or Oz, but who is? Yet countries take policy leads from others all the time. Govts are always looking at the way laws n other countries play out. We're all still human.

It's just commonsense. What we do to our bodies is a personal health and taste issue and everyone has their own standards. I have no intention of adopting someone else's health and taste standards because they think I should be more like them. Maybe they should be more like me?

Yes Martin, I support regulation of all banned things. Prohibition is a proven failure (and it wouldn't work with guns either, but regulation works). Regulation brings everything out into the open and makes it difficult for organised criminals. Increased regulation of gambling would be a good idea too. Prohibition doesn't work unless you're willing to go all the way like a dictatorship. Automatic death penalty.

Going at it half-assed means the worst of all worlds - the massive costs, the crime and increased drug abuse (due to attraction of the forbidden).
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:10 AM
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I'd be interested in knowing whether or not you support the legalization of all substances - including natural heroin, meth, synthetic drugs, LSD and more.
Absolutely. Given my choice in the matter, adult citizens would be free to live as they want as long as they aren't hurting others or hurting another's ability to also do so. Going to an extremely dangerous substance for example, putting crack users in jail helps literally nothing. It doesn't help them, and it only gets them "off the street" for a short time, during which they are a burden to the country and tax payer.

I believe that the penalties for hurting another's freedom should be greatly stiffened, and there should be no penalty for hurting yourself, or doing something that might potentially harm self. Regulation is another matter. To an extent, I see a need for things like age restrictions, and safety-based production regulation. Even this is a losing battle, but it's much less harmful to self and society than outright criminalizing something, creating black markets and cartels for the banned item in the process.
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:21 AM
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...but I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms.
Freedom??? what is freedom? the fact you can do whatever you want providing it's within a set of rules, the infrastructure of a government, with all the regulations and prohibition involved? That's not freedom, it's just an illusion, freedom doesn't exist, at least not in the proper sense.

The world is set by rules, regulations and prohibitions. Freedom is a given model of how we should live on this planet, wherever you live.

Legalizing, regulating or banning drugs will change very little, it will still be around causing the same trouble, the same victims and the same deaths, and someone will still fill up their pockets with huge amount of money at the instance of others, unfortunately drugs will still be around, like guns, violence, murders, crimes, rapes alongside all these immoral subjects which are poisoning lives of millions of people around the globe.

This discussion is going round in circle, while all opinions can be worthy, it won't change a lot in the real world, we can't change greed, we can't change the fact there will be drug users, we can't change mankind.

//end of rant//
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Old 12-30-2012, 01:52 AM
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Freedom??? what is freedom? the fact you can do whatever you want providing it's within a set of rules, the infrastructure of a government, with all the regulations and prohibition involved? That's not freedom, it's just an illusion, freedom doesn't exist, at least not in the proper sense.
Personal freedoms are not the same thing as total freedom to do whatever you want. If there's no victim, there should be no "crime". Don't hurt people, or deprive them of anything reasonable, and you shouldn't have to worry about being labeled a criminal.
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:34 AM
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Personal freedoms are not the same thing as total freedom to do whatever you want. If there's no victim, there should be no "crime". Don't hurt people, or deprive them of anything reasonable, and you shouldn't have to worry about being labeled a criminal.
While I admire your explanation within your post Watso, mankind has an historical agenda of creating victims, crimes, hurting and killing people, depriving entire civilizations and very often not even labelled as criminals, somehow I can't share such a view on personal freedom, and I'm a very optimistic person.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:39 AM
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There's a few obvious fault lines where laws are based on tradition and are now doing more harm than good - prohibition, gay marriage and dying with dignity. We've made progress before - abolishing slavery, women's rights, multi-racial acceptance...
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:48 AM
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There's a few obvious fault lines where laws are based on tradition and are now doing more harm than good - prohibition, gay marriage and dying with dignity. We've made progress before - abolishing slavery, women's rights, multi-racial acceptance...
That's a whole lot of classic sticky slope arguments: "Because we outlawed this, that and the other, and because we made legal this, that and the other, then of course we need to make legal/illegal this here list of things." All those things cut both ways and several ways.

My strawman dragged a red herring across your slippery slope!
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:31 AM
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Nuthin slippery around any of them, although I suspect herrings of any colour will be slippery ... I'd see your straw man and up you a malapropism except I've forgotten what it is and couldn't be bothered Googling :)

All these legal changes will happen, just as abolishing slavery was always going to happen. Just as women will one day have equal rights in Asia and the Middle East (although that will take much longer). It's just a matter of getting past the inertia of tradition.
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:15 PM
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Legalizing, regulating or banning drugs will change very little, it will still be around causing the same trouble, the same victims and the same deaths, and someone will still fill up their pockets with huge amount of money at the instance of others, unfortunately drugs will still be around, like guns, violence, murders, crimes, rapes alongside all these immoral subjects which are poisoning lives of millions of people around the globe.
Woah - what makes you think all "drug users" are the same? If someone takes prescription drugs for a mental conditon, are they are drug user? And in many cases they are different from day to day based on whether they took their meds., ate something that made their meds pass through slowly/quickly. Using cannabis as an example there are many who use it responsibly and thoughtfully. So responsibly that they never are arrested, lose a job,etc. And in some areas they grow their own, legally. Regulating cannabis would lower the price tremendously, stop virtually ALL the incoming trafficking, stop almost 1 million American's from being arrested for minor possession each year, generate tax revenue whilst reducing Court and enforcement costs dramatically. And stop labeling those people as criminals which REALLY ruins lives. //end of Rant//
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Old 01-09-2013, 05:29 PM
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Nuthin slippery around any of them, although I suspect herrings of any colour will be slippery ... I'd see your straw man and up you a malapropism except I've forgotten what it is and couldn't be bothered Googling :)

All these legal changes will happen, just as abolishing slavery was always going to happen. Just as women will one day have equal rights in Asia and the Middle East (although that will take much longer). It's just a matter of getting past the inertia of tradition.
That's a sticky slope argument - "This case that I support is just like the cause of [fill in name of some great, well-known human movement for freedom and equality from any time and place]." Your cause is just like the struggle against slavery, so how could any right-minded person think differently, right?

I could argue the slippery slope, that your case is really like [fill in the name of some well-known human-caused disaster, injustice, or failed policy] but I won't because analogy is a very weak form of reasoning. From your statement, it isn't too hard to extrapolate that those who oppose cannabis legalization are in the same camp as those who support slavery and oppose women's rights in the Middle East, a "wrong side of history" theme.
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