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  #41  
Old 12-16-2012, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Conneticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I heard a statistic that this is the 41st school shooting since Columbine. 41 and counting. I nearly fell over when I heard that. If someone wants to kill, the instrument of death can be many different things. I don't know how any law can prevent someone who wants to kill from doing so. How do we eliminate this desire to kill?

What changed in society since I was a kid? This just didn't happen when I was youngster. My wife thinks it psycotropic drugs that are prescribed for kids. I don't know so I won't comment. Seeing the pics of those kids, and indeed just thinking about it...their poor families especially..the tears just flow out. :(

I just don't know what can be done. Games for kids have unspeakable violence. Perhaps they should make video games where if you kill someone, unspeakable bad things happen to the killers. They are reinforcing the wrong message. That's just one little thing out of hundreds of factors that result in this.
There are many factors, not the least of which is lack of facilities for mentally ill and disturbed children. This was something I fought daily when I was a School Resource Officer. I saw children who were mentally disturbed and a danger to others, some of them as young as 7 years old, but when I would try to have them removed from the school or find them help, it was almost non-existent. Our society doesn't want to believe that young children can have criminal intent or be dangerous and so we bury our head in the sand until they are older and they refuse help or it's just too late and they turn our like the shooter here. Until we improve these types of services we are not going to move forward.
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  #42  
Old 12-16-2012, 08:12 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

This does not seem like the same country I knew growing up. Mary, what you say is revealing. What I want to know is why do kids of 7 years old have criminal intent in the first place? It never used to be like that. We had bullys, but these kids aren't bullys. And bullys didn't shoot anybody. There are so many different reasons for the young killing the young, it hard to do just one thing to stop it. I can't help thinking that these killings are symptoms of a society that has lost it's direction. It's a sick society when you have kids killing people. The media has to change. Priorities have to change. Greed has to be criminalized. Human-ness has to be restored in an official capacity. Yea that's not happening anytime soon.
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  #43  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:31 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

Upping gun control won't do anything. Heroin is illegal across the board but I could get some tomorrow if I wanted. A determined and motivated person will get their hands on whatever it is they want and need.This would be the exact case w/banning guns. Plus, to every 1 bad story involving guns there are 2-3 that have positive outcomes. You just never hear about those.

I think the focus needs to be on how we handle the mentally challenged and school security.
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  #44  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:08 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Conneticut Elementary School

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There are many factors, not the least of which is lack of facilities for mentally ill and disturbed children. This was something I fought daily when I was a School Resource Officer. I saw children who were mentally disturbed and a danger to others, some of them as young as 7 years old, but when I would try to have them removed from the school or find them help, it was almost non-existent. Our society doesn't want to believe that young children can have criminal intent or be dangerous and so we bury our head in the sand until they are older and they refuse help or it's just too late and they turn our like the shooter here. Until we improve these types of services we are not going to move forward.
Indeed. My wife, as an elementary teacher for the last 17+ years has encountered and endured much more than anyone should. There's no support at any end until it's too late. There are 3 other teachers in her family with same stories - some worse than the next.
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  #45  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:41 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

There is only the illusion of security in most schools in the US.
There is rarely any money to fund it so the security system winds up consisting a few low resolution cameras that may or may not work with no one watching them.
There may be a guard at a school who isn't armed.
Schools are easy targets for sick minds plus they know that their act will get big media coverage. That is what they want.

I agree that someone who is set on murder will find whatever hardware that they need to perform their deranged act.
People in third world countries always seem to have no problem getting the weapons that they need.
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  #46  
Old 12-17-2012, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

It is Monday now, here in Toronto; and I want to share this news article written today for The Toronto Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-shows-the-way
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  #47  
Old 12-17-2012, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

Unfortunately, teachers are increasingly called upon to protect their schools with their lives. Among other things society should do: schools should have a secured defensive firearm available to properly trained administrators and teachers.

If some maniac coward gunman does enter the school, at least school staff will have a chance to defend the school. This won't completely solve the problem but if it stops a coward gunman in his tracks, then it will have worked.
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  #48  
Old 12-17-2012, 04:56 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
Unfortunately, teachers are increasingly called upon to protect their schools with their lives. Among other things society should do: schools should have a secured defensive firearm available to properly trained administrators and teachers.

If some maniac coward gunman does enter the school, at least school staff will have a chance to defend the school. This won't completely solve the problem but if it stops a coward gunman in his tracks, then it will have worked.
You know Martin I was going to post a similar response. Except I think the teachers, and indeed any adult working there, should have a defensive weapon, possibly something non lethal that can incapacitate a person. I mean it's reached that point. So OK bringing real guns in school would be a hot topic, but how about something as effective, but not deadly?

Like a taser or something along those lines. I see nothing wrong with that, only because what we have now, meaning nothing, isn't working.

I can't help wondering if everyone was armed for real, what would that do to todays society? Would it make more shootings or less shootings? I might be less inclined to shoot if everyone else was armed. It could go the other way too. I wonder how it would actually play out.
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  #49  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:30 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Conneticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by MaryO View Post
There are many factors, not the least of which is lack of facilities for mentally ill and disturbed children. This was something I fought daily when I was a School Resource Officer. I saw children who were mentally disturbed and a danger to others, some of them as young as 7 years old, but when I would try to have them removed from the school or find them help, it was almost non-existent. Our society doesn't want to believe that young children can have criminal intent or be dangerous and so we bury our head in the sand until they are older and they refuse help or it's just too late and they turn our like the shooter here. Until we improve these types of services we are not going to move forward.
The shootings in Newtown are a tragedy....my wife and I both could not hold back our tears seeing the coverage of this, our hearts go out to the children and adults who were murdered so senselessly as well as the familys, the teachers, the first responders....all who's lives will never be the same.

I think Mary O hits the topic we as a nation should be talking about.

Last edited by KnuckleBuster; 12-17-2012 at 05:37 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #50  
Old 12-17-2012, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

I marched in Washington DC in 2000 after Columbine incident and helped organize my city's trip to the march. Million Mom March. Here we are 12 years later...

I am curious. Can the Aussie and Brit drummers here chime in as to average number on gun-related deaths in their country per year?
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  #51  
Old 12-17-2012, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
Unfortunately, teachers are increasingly called upon to protect their schools with their lives. Among other things society should do: schools should have a secured defensive firearm available to properly trained administrators and teachers.

If some maniac coward gunman does enter the school, at least school staff will have a chance to defend the school. This won't completely solve the problem but if it stops a coward gunman in his tracks, then it will have worked.
And if they accidently shoot an unarmed civilian in the building or worse, a child, it doesn't work. Arming school personnel is NOT the answer. Putting things such as School Resource Officers full time in our school is a step in the right direction. I know, I was one for 4 years in a primary and elementary school. I was there every day, armed, with the children. It's a great program for many reasons. I was specifically trained in how to react to an intruder, the PROPER use of firearms and building search techniques and many other things. We also ran intruder drills and lock down drills so that school personnel and students would be somewhat prepared (as prepared as you can be in these situations).

It also teaches children, especially the young ones to trust and befriend officers. Something that is so often overlooked these days.

The other major point against arming teachers and school administration for me is this...when an incident happens, especially again in the younger schools, we need those teachers with their students who know and trust them. Those teachers already have their hands more than full keeping students calm and orderly and getting them to safety as quickly as possible. That is more important than having them out running down the halls. The children need the calming effect of a teacher they know and who knows them. Again, I know how important this is...I've seen it firsthand.

There are so many other factors as well....accidental shootings of innocent people, where do you keep guns when at school so the children don't have access, etc.

In the end, we all have to accept that there are NO perfect solutions to this problem. If an intruder wants in...he will get in. The best we can hope for is to keep casualties to a minimum. I always told my teachers that it was my job as the SRO to draw him away from students and focus on me if possible while help arrives. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, what we need to avoid is any type of rush to a decision and any type of vigilante attitude about arming all with guns.

It's a difficult and complex problem, I agree, but there are things that we can do to help. I hope solutions are studied that cover all angles, protection of the school and our students, mental health issues and more.
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  #52  
Old 12-17-2012, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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I am curious. Can the [. . .] Brit drummers here chime in as to average number on gun-related deaths in their country per year?
According to Gun Control Network, there were 58 firearms related homicides in England and Wales (population approx 56 million) in the year 2010/11 and 2 in Scotland (population approx 5 million) for the same period.

In the first 6 months of 2012 there were 42 recorded shooting deaths in the UK - 57% of which were with known or presumed legal firearms and 55% were apparently self-inflicted. It seems that since 1999/2000 the majority (about 430 in England & Wales and 11 in Scotland) of recorded firearm homicides have been with what are simply classified as "Handguns". Since 1997 private ownership of all cartridge ammunition "handguns" (i.e. not air pistols) regardless of calibre has been outlawed in England, Wales, and Scotland. I'm not sure about Northern Ireland.

FYI The Gun Control Network was founded in the wake of a shooting in March 1996 that took place at a school in Dunblane (Scotland) when a 43 year old male shot and killed 18 people (including himself) as well as wounding 15 others. The weapons used - two 9mm pistols and two .357 Magnum pistols - were (at that time) legally owned.
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  #53  
Old 12-17-2012, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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According to Gun Control Network, there were 58 firearms related homicides in England and Wales (population approx 56 million) in the year 2010/11 and 2 in Scotland (population approx 5 million) for the same period.

In .
So 58 (for years 2010-11) divided by two is 29 average gun-related deaths in Engalnd/Wales per year. The US has close six times the population (near 300 million?), so ..

So, 6 multipled by 29 = 174. Why can't the US work to achieve under 200 deaths per year? Instead of the typical 8,000 - 10,000. Seems like gun control legislation is working very well in England. Why the huge difference? That's why lawmakers need to look at now.
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  #54  
Old 12-17-2012, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

All of this is really difficult to comprehend. My heart goes out to everyone affected. Nothing can undo whats been done. That in itself is a terrible feeling. Media coverage and representation of school shootings recently has really exploded. It seems that these incidents are becoming more frequent, but school shootings are actually on the decline. The Federal Gov't issues a survey called "Indicators of School Crime and Safety" that finds schools are still the safest place for children, and kids are more likely to see violence out of school than in it. In my mind that says that we've been doing has been working. No system is perfect, troubled kids will still attempt these appalling acts, and they may even succeed, but more and more of these are being prevented and stopped. I see progress.

If you read about the safety precautions that that elementary school had in place that day, it's amazing. I really don't know how the shooter even got in the school..
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  #55  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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So 58 (for years 2010-11) divided by two is 29 average gun-related deaths in Engalnd/Wales per year. The US has close six times the population (near 300 million?), so ..

So, 6 multipled by 29 = 174. Why can't the US work to achieve under 200 deaths per year? Instead of the typical 8,000 - 10,000. Seems like gun control legislation is working very well in England. Why the huge difference? That's why lawmakers need to look at now.
Sorry to be pedantic, as I take your overall point, but just to clarify - the period described as 2010/11 in their statistics is 12 months, not 24, so that means 58 homicides in England and Wales in one year. Over a 12 year period there were 758 recorded firearm related homicides in England and Wales which averages just over 63 per year.

In a ten year period from 1997 to 2006 the total number of recorded firearm related deaths - which included "accident, suicide, homicide and undetermined intent" in the UK was 1,985 - or an average of 199 per year. Figures from 2002 showed England and Wales having 0.38 firearm related deaths per 100,000 population for that year and 0.28 for Scotland.
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  #56  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

To put the above statistics into perspective - in 2007 The International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) produced some literature called Gun Violence: The Global Crisis. At that time they listed England and Wales as having 0.10 firearm related homicides per 100,000 population. The USA statistic of 3.92 per 100,000 - or nearly 40 times as many - appears to be much higher though not as high as Mexico at 5.11, Panama at 7.12, Jamaica at 16.97, or - highest of all - Colombia at 49.52 firearm homicides per 100,000 or approximately 500 times as many as England and Wales. With a total population of about 45,000,000 that equates to roughly 22,000 per year.
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  #57  
Old 12-17-2012, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

It is not just guns although that is one topic that must be discussed; there are other factors to consider. I always felt that there had to be some link and this seems to be one of them.
They hand this stuff out like it was candy and those ads; please!


http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/...shootings.html
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  #58  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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...It's a difficult and complex problem, I agree, but there are things that we can do to help. I hope solutions are studied that cover all angles, protection of the school and our students, mental health issues and more.
Positively. This is way more than just guns. I'd take up way too much DW server space to account for a fraction of the issues the teachers in my family have encountered. None of them involved a gun, but all of a threat of violence of violence itself to the teachers and other staff. Remember - I'm talking Elementary here..... These kids eventually grow up and who knows what happens...........

Adding more fuel to the mix is the political correctness that hogties us over certain topics - mental illness and all that comes with it (before anyone decides to spit fire with me, I have lived with a mentally ill brother who was quite capable of violence equal to what has occurred so I'm well aware of both sides of that argument), lack of parents being parents, children being able to run the show with no consequences, etc...... My list can go on for a while.

Guns is just the weapon, the underlying reasons are another deal altogether. Multiple issues going on here........

Last edited by dmacc; 12-17-2012 at 09:57 PM.
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  #59  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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It is not just guns although that is one topic that must be discussed; there are other factors to consider. I always felt that there had to be some link and this seems to be one of them.
They hand this stuff out like it was candy and those ads; please!


http://www.forbiddenknowledgetv.com/...shootings.html
Yes I totally agree this is huge part of the equation. Sadly another result of the influence of pharmaceutical industry inthe U.S. Nearly 33% of advertising revenue on the largest television networks in from drug companies. Hence, criticism of their ridiculous ads is non-existent on news programs. I've heard or seen nothing of the sort so far w/regard to this tragedy.
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  #60  
Old 12-17-2012, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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You know Martin I was going to post a similar response. Except I think the teachers, and indeed any adult working there, should have a defensive weapon, possibly something non lethal that can incapacitate a person. I mean it's reached that point. So OK bringing real guns in school would be a hot topic, but how about something as effective, but not deadly?

Like a taser or something along those lines. I see nothing wrong with that, only because what we have now, meaning nothing, isn't working.

I can't help wondering if everyone was armed for real, what would that do to todays society? Would it make more shootings or less shootings? I might be less inclined to shoot if everyone else was armed. It could go the other way too. I wonder how it would actually play out.
Armored car people carry weapons because they have to guard very valuable things and are at risk of violence because of it. As we are discovering, so are teachers. I think they should have tasers too, but at least one defensive firearm should be kept at the schools, in a vault with something like a fingerprint ID lock. Only trained teachers and administrators should have access to it and they should need to qualify regularly on their training.

It is impossible to stop anything like this from happening. Any coward gunman with enough determination can do this with even worse weapons. One component of the solution is to give teachers the means to better defend their schools with thier lives.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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It is Monday now, here in Toronto; and I want to share this news article written today for The Toronto Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/ar...-shows-the-way
I should have posted the first line so as to give you an idea of the article.

Amidst the hurt and the horror, there is an amazing grace.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

What we need is a mandate that the shooter in these crimes will never be a "star". Put it into law that the identity of any mass shooter will not be revealed outside the workings of the case, and put financial penalties on any news or media that reports on the individual. Everyone can still talk about the case, and the victims, but not the perpetrator.

They do this for attention. Don't give it to them.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:07 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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And if they accidently shoot an unarmed civilian in the building or worse, a child, it doesn't work. Arming school personnel is NOT the answer. Putting things such as School Resource Officers full time in our school is a step in the right direction. I know, I was one for 4 years in a primary and elementary school. I was there every day, armed, with the children. It's a great program for many reasons. I was specifically trained in how to react to an intruder, the PROPER use of firearms and building search techniques and many other things. We also ran intruder drills and lock down drills so that school personnel and students would be somewhat prepared (as prepared as you can be in these situations).

It also teaches children, especially the young ones to trust and befriend officers. Something that is so often overlooked these days.

The other major point against arming teachers and school administration for me is this...when an incident happens, especially again in the younger schools, we need those teachers with their students who know and trust them. Those teachers already have their hands more than full keeping students calm and orderly and getting them to safety as quickly as possible. That is more important than having them out running down the halls. The children need the calming effect of a teacher they know and who knows them. Again, I know how important this is...I've seen it firsthand.

There are so many other factors as well....accidental shootings of innocent people, where do you keep guns when at school so the children don't have access, etc.

In the end, we all have to accept that there are NO perfect solutions to this problem. If an intruder wants in...he will get in. The best we can hope for is to keep casualties to a minimum. I always told my teachers that it was my job as the SRO to draw him away from students and focus on me if possible while help arrives. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Either way, what we need to avoid is any type of rush to a decision and any type of vigilante attitude about arming all with guns.

It's a difficult and complex problem, I agree, but there are things that we can do to help. I hope solutions are studied that cover all angles, protection of the school and our students, mental health issues and more.
Arming school personnel isn't "the" answer - no one single thing is - but it's part of it. A secured defensive firearm in strategic location means teachers wouldn't necessarily be defenseless when a maniac coward visits the school. The firearm's location and presence should only be known to properly trained staff and there should be a strict protocol stating who may access it and under what conditions.

I understand what you are saying about the teachers needing keep children calm and orderly in a shooting crisis, but if that means the teacher and children are just calmly headed to slaughter, then that's no help at all. Yes, I understand the risk of accidental shootings. On balance, I think student safety is better served accepting the risk of an accident shooting by trained personnel, than by submitting to the mercy of a homocidal maniac.

Giving teachers the means to defend their schools is one component of what we need to be doing. SROs are nice but you can't have them in every school all the time, certainly not at a kindergarten. They're police, not armed guards.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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What we need is a mandate that the shooter in these crimes will never be a "star". Put it into law that the identity of any mass shooter will not be revealed outside the workings of the case, and put financial penalties on any news or media that reports on the individual. Everyone can still talk about the case, and the victims, but not the perpetrator.

They do this for attention. Don't give it to them.
This is an interesting proposal, but it wouldn't work. You can't just fine media for getting information like that and it wouldn't be possible to keep it a secret. However, I understand what you are getting at and I support it in theory. I just can't figure out how to make it work.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Giving teachers the means to defend their schools is one component of what we need to be doing. SROs are nice but you can't have them in every school all the time, certainly not at a kindergarten. They're police, not armed guards.
Ahhh, but you can and I was! The school I worked was K-5th grade. So yes I was there all day every day. I even went on field trips and when I wasn't in the school on any day, another officer on the force came in for the day so it was always covered. That's the way the program was designed to work. Not sure if it still is but when I was an SRO it was started as a Federal Grant program so any school could apply and get them and then after 3 or 4 years the local district would take over the program. So YES it can, has and is being done - even in a kindergarten!
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by Deathmetalconga View Post
This is an interesting proposal, but it wouldn't work. You can't just fine media for getting information like that and it wouldn't be possible to keep it a secret. However, I understand what you are getting at and I support it in theory. I just can't figure out how to make it work.
It works just fine to protect the identity of minors involved in accidents or crimes, the subject still gets reported on, they just omit names and pictures. I don't think it would be popular with the media lobbyists, of course, but let's be real here... These deranged people do public stunts like these for the response.

Make the penalties steep enough and I think it could at least help. It's a very serious issue to me that every single time this happens, we give them exactly what they want. Attention.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

I would trade my life to restore any one of the victims.

I am deeply offended at the emotional pumping in the media coverage...and the neglect other key stories are getting...especially in light of the vastly larger number of children dieing in auto accidents in the US.

Perspective distortion is the tool of the manipulative.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:02 PM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by larryz View Post
I am curious. Can the Aussie and Brit drummers here chime in as to average number on gun-related deaths in their country per year?

Am not a Brit or Aussie I can weigh in as a Canuck. Most things in Canada are the same as USA divided by 10 ( scale to population) except gun related crime. Way, way down in comparison. People simply cannot access firearms here, esp. hand guns.

As noted above, a country needs a social support system for problem kids/families. More social systems are needed. Gun control, obvious, but admittedly complicated.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:38 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

My prayers go to all of the family's who lost loved ones for no reason, except just pure evil.
Bob sorry you were so close to the school. It sure is a dark time, a family at our church lost there 12 year old boy due to a freak accident. I was at the funeral last night. That was very rough, seeing I have a 13 year old son. I can't even imagine what these family's are going through right now. Back in 1992 there was a mass murder at a Browns chicken restaurant down the street from my house. A couple of kids in my neighborhood worked there and were shot and killed. There news trucks and helicopters all over the place. I feel for you Bob.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
Am not a Brit or Aussie I can weigh in as a Canuck. Most things in Canada are the same as USA divided by 10 ( scale to population) except gun related crime. Way, way down in comparison. People simply cannot access firearms here, esp. hand guns.

As noted above, a country needs a social support system for problem kids/families. More social systems are needed. Gun control, obvious, but admittedly complicated.
We had here,in this instance, a child with some social/mental issues known to the mother so how in the hell did he have access to her weapons ? this is the gun control we need. Too late in this case but for every accident or crime permitted with a weapon owned by someone else that is not secured should bring the wrath of the law on the gun owner.
I have been planning for months to buy a pistol for my home, that would never leave my home except for classes and target shooting at the local store, and since this event I have had to really think this over. However the latest group of shootings like this have all been by persons with social/mental issues. I have not changed my mind on ownership. Any law will be broken by any person with these issues. they don't care about the law.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:01 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

Just to add some objectivity to this debate...

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/12/6/365.full

Everyone should read this. It is from a reputable, peer-reviewed source and is very well written.

Just to add some idea of what this is about:

Quote:
Results: In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards. Declines in firearm-related deaths before the law reforms accelerated after the reforms for total firearm deaths (p = 0.04), firearm suicides (p = 0.007) and firearm homicides (p = 0.15), but not for the smallest category of unintentional firearm deaths, which increased. No evidence of substitution effect for suicides or homicides was observed. The rates per 100 000 of total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides all at least doubled their existing rates of decline after the revised gun laws.

Conclusions: Australia’s 1996 gun law reforms were followed by more than a decade free of fatal mass shootings, and accelerated declines in firearm deaths, particularly suicides. Total homicide rates followed the same pattern. Removing large numbers of rapid-firing firearms from civilians may be an effective way of reducing mass shootings, firearm homicides and firearm suicides.

...

Key points:

A radical gun law reform occurred in Australia after a gun massacre (35 dead and 18 seriously injured) in April 1996. Semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns and rifles were banned; a tax-funded firearm buyback and amnesties saw over 700 000 guns surrendered from an adult population of about 12 million.

The total firearm deaths, firearm homicides and firearm suicides had been falling in the 18 years preceding the new gun laws. In all, 13 mass shootings were noticed in the 18 years preceding the new gun laws.

In the 10.5 years after the gun law reforms, there have been no mass shootings, but accelerated declines in annual total gun deaths and firearm suicides and a non-significant accelerated decline in firearm homicides. No substitution effects occurred for suicides or homicides.
Says it all for me. Naturally, the pro-gun crowd will choose to deny it has any scientific validity. So be it.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:17 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
We had here,in this instance, a child with some social/mental issues known to the mother so how in the hell did he have access to her weapons ? this is the gun control we need.

I have been planning for months to buy a pistol for my home, that would never leave my home except for classes and target shooting at the local store, and since this event I have had to really think this over.
+1 with your 1st point. i hear you loud and clear there. People should be able to own guns,bows arrows, etc. They should be locked/secure, and if not, major penalty.

Your 2nd point is the more interesting one for me. The need to have a pistol? If its truly for fun. I see that. But if its for protection, than there is something fundamentally different about the security people feel.

I'm sure the issue has been visited many times with many lines of evidence.
Sad all around.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:59 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

Today I observed at least 25 news people and 5 or 6 news satellite trucks across the street from the towns only funeral home which is located on Main Street just north of the famous flagpole that Im sure that you have all seen by now.
They were taking videos of the mourners as they came and went to pay respects to 6 year old Jack Pinto. The line was long and people were standing outside in the cold December rain.
There was also a videographer inside the local deli that was near the funeral home. He was sticking the large shoulder mounted camera in everyones face as they walked in for lunch. Other reporters were outside of the deli trying to interview anyone who would stop and talk. These news people are truly bottom feeders. They are scum.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

Quote:
Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Just to add some objectivity to this debate...

http://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/12/6/365.full

Everyone should read this. It is from a reputable, peer-reviewed source and is very well written.

Just to add some idea of what this is about:



Says it all for me. Naturally, the pro-gun crowd will choose to deny it has any scientific validity. So be it.
I have read the article and have no issues with it. I am after a small hand gun for my house to keep crazies away.

I would offer the following article as evidence that we as a country are trying to reform. there is just too much opposition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_H...Prevention_Act
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

"In 2003, there were a total of 42,643 traffic fatalities in the United States. The 0-14
age group accounted for 5 percent (2,136) of those traffic fatalities."

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809762.pdf


I fear our attentions are being manipulated.

The shots I see on the news blitz are far beyond reporting and are delving into emotional whipping.

Dont get me wrong...tragic...but far from appropriate proportions of tragedy in terms of suffering being felt across the US public.
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  #76  
Old 12-18-2012, 02:35 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke View Post
Says it all for me. Naturally, the pro-gun crowd will choose to deny it has any scientific validity. So be it.
Not pro-gun per say, but I'm certainly pro-freedoms and accountability. The fact that something might hold a danger if mis-used does not typically sway me from advocating the freedom to own or use that thing. I believe that governments are far from infallible, and as such, we should always retain the right and as much ability to fight back as is reasonable, should the need arise and be generally agreed on by my peers. "Gun control" can very easily be turned into "population-control", should things get violent or oppressive.

Death by falling down the stairs is literally a leading cause of death here in the US. Banning stairways outright or limiting them to only 3 steps maximum would surely prevent thousands of deaths per year. It would be evil to not support the banning of all staircases. There is plenty of "scientific validity" in that statement.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

If everything mentioned just right here would be put into effect, it would slash the killings to a tiny fraction of what they were before. A multi faceted attack, with a plan to have the adults responsible for the kids, meaning the teachers and staff, easy access to non lethal and secured access to lethal weapons, (give them a big fat raise while you're at it) a mandate that any killers entire history is to be wiped from the books. Big fines and loss of reporting privilege for any media mention whatsoever of the villian himself, penalties for owning legal weapons that get used in crimes that are committed by someone other than the owner, equal to what the criminal would get, automatic weapons illegal everywhere except military and police.

For starters.

It's all about money though, who's gonna pay? The middle class, who else? All this stuff can be done, it just takes money and strong, quick acting leadership. Like flex some muscle here. Lip service ain't gonna cut it. Spend some money on THIS country. It would be nice if the guys like Zucherberg and Gates and Turner would and the other top 1%-ers would be required by law to donate a billion a year to combat this. It's the least they could do to give back from the land they profited so immensely from.

They need to free up the money they spend on the war on cannabis and use it on a war against mass killers instead.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:08 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

Lets look at what happened when The Irish Republican Army was active in Ireland.
There was full military security in place in Northern Ireland.
The IRA still managed to cause severe mayhem.
The violence only stopped when the IRA stopped it themselves.
You can't stop people who are hell bent on evil.
History proves that over and over.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:12 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
We had here,in this instance, a child with some social/mental issues known to the mother so how in the hell did he have access to her weapons ? this is the gun control we need. Too late in this case but for every accident or crime permitted with a weapon owned by someone else that is not secured should bring the wrath of the law on the gun owner.
I have been planning for months to buy a pistol for my home, that would never leave my home except for classes and target shooting at the local store, and since this event I have had to really think this over. However the latest group of shootings like this have all been by persons with social/mental issues. I have not changed my mind on ownership. Any law will be broken by any person with these issues. they don't care about the law.
Where do you draw the line on mental stability? For example, should someone diagnosed with clinical depression have their guns taken away - even if they have never committed any crime? I would tend to say yes, at least for their own safety, and even if they're being medicated for it. Gun ownership is a tremendous responsiblity and you really need to have each and every one of your marbles.

If we're going to look at issues of mental instability, then we need to be prepared to make some very hard choices about who may and may not own firearms.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:21 AM
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Default Re: Shooting in Newtown, Connecticut Elementary School

DMC for sure. I am not prepared to make the judgement but there are plenty of pros that do it every day. They are witnesses in courts and decide if a person is a danger to them selves or someone else. But if they are already being treated by a professional, then any weapons owned by the household should not be available to them. Like all decisions dealing with the constitution a lot of tough decisions are going to have to be made. Evidently none of this ladies weapons were under lock and key and certainly should have been.
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