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  #1  
Old 11-24-2012, 05:18 AM
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Default Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I saw this just tonight and thought it was too powerful not to share with my brothers and sisters here. It's an extremely medical and factual pro stance documentary about the substance I got arrested for on break at an open mic blues jam type gig on a Sunday night, Mothers Day 2011. (The jammers were on stage, I was free to hang) 48 minutes long and made in 2010. It's about time this research see's the light of day. If you can guess what I'm referring to, and maybe have a spare 48 minutes, check it out. Guaranteed not to disappoint.

http://vimeo.com/20129106
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:31 PM
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As retired law enforcement I completely agree in legalizing pot or growing certain amounts for personal consumption,just like alcohol is now.The amout of time,money and resources not to mention risking the lives of cops, is staggering.

How many lives have been ruined or lost because of antiquated ideals and laws.If pot was legalized and enormous amout of income through taxation would be realized on municipal,state and federal levels.Not to mention how much jail space would be freed up in an already overcrowded system.

Taxpayer dollars that pay for law enforcement, inmate care and custody could be used in other areas,such as rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure,better education , medical care and research.

In all my years in law enforcement,I've never seen violent behavior or a fight between people that were high on weed.....over eating and protracted laughter yes but violence....never.Conversly with booze,plenty of bar fights,stabbings,shootings,DWIs and broken families.It's time to change our perspective and shift the paradigm.

Steve B
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:58 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

The results of this experiment indicated that there were significant effects on pilot performance 24 hours after smoking a single marijuana cigarette. Overall, the pilots demonstrated much moredifficultyinaligningwithandlandingontherunwaya fter ∆9-THCexposure.Therewere increases in the number and size of aileron changes, the size of elevator changes and the degree of vertical and lateral deviation from the required flightpath during the approach to land. At 24 hours post-marijuana, the lateral deviation on approach to land was almost twice that of the pre-marijuana test. There was also a significant increase in the distance from the centre of the runway on touchdown. Indeed, one pilot 24 hours after smoking the marijuana landed off the runway entirely. More worrying, perhaps, was their finding that the pilots were not aware of any impairment of their flying performance at 24 hours after marijuana use.
Leirer et al examined the inter-relationship between marijuana, age and difficulty of the task on pilot performance (27). They found that there was a cumulative adverse effect of age, marijuana and task difficulty on pilot performance. Older pilots performed less well than younger pilots, bad weather resulted in lower pilot performance, and impaired performance occurred immediately after exposure to marijuana. In this group of pilots, a carry-over effect of marijuana was not found at 24 hours post-exposure.

this is my only issue. Pilots who feel good way before the effects wear off.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:53 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I will not debate this topic as there are many great points from both sides. I just wanted to put this out there because I thought it should be seen by both sides.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:58 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I'm basically libertarian, so I don't think we should've ever outlawed it anyway. Peoples' behaviors and how they interact with others are what matter. What they put into their bodies should be their own business.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:02 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

Well said, Steve. It's frustrating to see society so slow to learn from the mistakes of history, but turning around large groups of people is like turning around a large ship.

Love the historical footage ... the anti pot and booze ads ... Lucille and Ricardo advertising Phillip Morris lol

There's no doubt it's medicinal, although like all medicines there is an optimal dosage. Abuse of pot won't have the dramatic effects of many other things but it's still not good - overdone it messes with your head, especially for schizophrenics, and it reduces motivation ... if you feel wonderful while just sitting on your butt then you're less likely to get off it and do something.

I think that's the main reason why the powers that be dislike pot, given that they basically see us as productive units. Too much pot and you're like an unoiled cog in the machine. Transcendent experience is only allowed if gained through the prescribed channels of alcohol, mating and breeding, the highs of work success, organised religion, sport and popular (ie. money spinning) arts.

Tribal societies often used entheogens (Wiki: "a psychoactive substance used in a religious, shamanic, or spiritual context"). These experiences can be inspiring and lead to insights that can be applied in daily life. In progressing society from the tribal ways we threw some babies out with the bathwater. In some ways modern society is more barbaric than traditional ones.

An anecdote about productive use of smoko. A few years ago I had a major and high profile (within the organisation) reporting project and I was overwhelmed by it. Spent days ineffectually trying to make sense of it and was getting nowhere. Then one morning, on a whim, I had a cone before work. Floated into the office, sat at my desk, opened the file and revisited the errors I had to clean up - several thousand of them.

I was baked and relaxed so I just picked one error and did an analysis on it. Cool, just three and a half thousand to go! So I fixed another, which turned out to be identical in principle to hundreds of other errors. Three thousand to go. By lunchtime I'd broken the back of the project and was back to schedule - the smoke had eased off my anxiety and allowed me to focus with some clarity.

It's reefer madness I tell you! We are dangerous people!
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:27 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I won't smoke pot or take drugs. I have a damn good reason though, I probably am in that small percentage that would develop serious mental issues. I already have occasional hallucinations without any foreign substances in my body so the last thing that might trigger them!

There was an interesting debate last year that I read about. It was regarding heroin production in Afghanistan. In the UK, diamorphine (which is basically heroin) is used a painkiller after surgery - as it is in a number of countries. There is a severe shortage of diamorphine and the supply of legal diamorphine is quite variable.

Instead of actually paying the farmers that were producing the opium poppy (illegally), coalition troops and local government destroyed the crop. These were people with little other option financially. The local arable crops wouldn't produce a high enough yield to be financially viable so opium poppy was grown instead. Rather than burning it, why didn't the various governments buy it and licence its growth in a legal channel to supply to medical establishments? It would have instantly removed the criminality, reduced the illegal supply (and made it much more expensive) and have produced a much-needed steady income to the farmers that were growing it. Madness.

I'm not a libertarian, but I do believe in the legalisation of a number of drugs. In my view, they are a great potential source of tax income whilst simultaneously removing the criminality from the chain. There has to be a better way - although I appreciate what I say is deeply controversial.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:34 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

Good stuff Duncan. To me it is so hypocritical that the government allows drinking, and gambling, when they know all the potential damage it does to people, yet won't legalize Marijuana. Growing up, I saw it suck the ambition out of my very gifted brother, and I myself failed grade 8 smoking the drug, so for me it is not an option. I have a propensity to do things to there extreme's!
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I've had a friend end up in prison four times and ruin her life because of a speed and cocaine addiction. It's entirely her fault - I make no bones about that - but the criminal aspect of the drugs are what I'm most worried about.

With a legalised supply, you also have a guaranteed purity. Overdosing would be much more rare.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

Just one thing I have to say about the weed and this comes from extensive experience back in the day " YOU DON'T GET STONED YOU GET STUPID!!!!
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:56 PM
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I feel it's only a matter of time before they legalize here, I just wish they would already. I don't smoke it but I did when I was younger. States where it is medicinally legal to grow and posses it have made a mockery of the medicinal law anyway so why not pass it and get rid of the criminal element now?

And just think of all the money the bleeding hearts can get from more B.S. taxes to help those that cannot afford their own cheetos to eat when they get the munchies as a side effect from the marijuana that the DR. prescribed for their anxiety.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I am as open-minded as they come, but I don't like to see pot used for anything other than medicinal purposes. My lungs are my life and I ahbor tobacco and the tobacco industry. I can see Phillip Morris getting into the pot business and monopolizing it if it became legal.

Plus if my daughter ever began smoking pot I would be crushed.

I think some god-like spirit and your parents loved you enough to bring you into this world. The least you can do is to thank them by taking care of your body and stayinh healthy so that you can take care of others.
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I favor keeping the drug laws just exactly as they are - pot and just about everything else illegal, booze legal but heavily regulated.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:57 PM
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I can just hear Larry yelling as he was hauled away " dont touch my kit, ill be back in the morning to pick it up!". Its a crazy thing because the revenue alone would probably erase the national debt in one year. There should be an age limit and other restrictions on it like antthing else but lets get it legal already. I dont smoke it and I wont if it becomes legal, it would just be nice to remove the criminal element involved in the whole thing.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:54 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I don't do anything classified as drugs myself and my alcohol comsumption is about 2 bottles of wine a year.

However, I think we should just get rid of all restrictions and let people choose for themselves. It's never worked so why not just try something different?
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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I favor keeping the drug laws just exactly as they are - pot and just about everything else illegal, booze legal but heavily regulated.
I'm quite relaxed with pot being illegal as long as they don't get silly and start acting as though the law made sense. I like the "illegal in name but everyone knows it's a dumb law" situation and usually not pushily enforced for individuals.

Cannabis is a far cleaner, gentler and more meditative drug than alcohol. People who get trashed with booze while tut-tutting about "immoral" pot users and "illegal drugs" are delusional. A lot of them run government, big businesses, churches and the media. They are blinded by their egos.

But I don't care for civil disobedience (other than ignoring bad laws) - pot's illegality keeps it under the radar ... away from the dead hand of government. You don't want govt involved.

I'm against arts grants for the same reason - everything the government touches is conservative and compromised by committees, qualities that are fabulous when dealing with logistics, but not the arts or the vagaries of individual human beings.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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- pot's illegality keeps it under the radar ... away from the dead hand of government. You don't want govt involved in matters of the soul.
the government is already involved inforcing the laws against it, spnding hundreds of millions a year on enforcement. Let the government make money from it instead.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:05 PM
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the government is already involved inforcing the laws against it, spnding hundreds of millions a year on enforcement. Let the government make money from it instead.
Sounds like a plan, Stan. The waste is ridiculous; I was just thinking of convenience on a personal level. There's hubris in the laws ... if they were focused on doing the right thing they'd save a lot of money and problems, but politics by it's nature means that our "leaders" are more concerned with the views of powerful lobby groups than logic.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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I favor keeping the drug laws just exactly as they are - pot and just about everything else illegal, booze legal but heavily regulated.
Booze is far more dangerous and harmful to both self and society. If anything, this should be reversed. Listen to the ex cop in the first response; enough with the damage we allow as a result of prohibition on a mild intoxicant that is demonstrably not as harmful as other currently legal intoxicants. It helps nothing, accomplishes nothing, and literally kills people and ruins lives to have this completely naturally occurring substance be controlled by our government.
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Old 11-28-2012, 08:06 PM
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Just one thing I have to say about the weed and this comes from extensive experience back in the day " YOU DON'T GET STONED YOU GET STUPID!!!!
In my experience, either you're stupid, or you're not. Additional cannabinoids in your system isn't going to make you dumb, though it can make an idiot act even more stupid by their own volition. It's just a change in mental processing. Though things like short term memory can be affected, a lot of folks will also tell you that other areas of mental processing are enhanced or altered. Given the context of this forum, it makes huge sense to mention that creativity and music immersion is at the top of that list. It's not just happenstance that cannabis and music are so intertwined.
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Old 11-28-2012, 10:24 PM
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I am as open-minded as they come, but I don't like to see pot used for anything other than medicinal purposes. My lungs are my life and I ahbor tobacco and the tobacco industry. I can see Phillip Morris getting into the pot business and monopolizing it if it became legal.

Plus if my daughter ever began smoking pot I would be crushed.

I think some god-like spirit and your parents loved you enough to bring you into this world. The least you can do is to thank them by taking care of your body and stayinh healthy so that you can take care of others.
Larry,I agree with the aspect of smoking pot also.But it can also be brewed like a tea,and used in baked goods or in waffles and pancakes(or potcakes I guess).

I agree we all probably need to take better care of our bodies.and sober is no doubt the way to go.But throwing people in jail is not the answer either.

Before I was NYPD,I was a correction officer on Rikers Island.A real crap job,and I can tell you with no doubt...that jail is no place you ever want to be.It changes your life forever,in the worst possible way.

I personally don't indulge,but if it could help a serious medical condition,I would consider it.

Steve B
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

...and Washington/Colorado shall lead them....

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1217666

Once everyone sees the revenue and decreased cost of enforcement...it will come to a state near you.

I worked crisis intervention at a local stadium when I was in college.

No incidence related to marijuana...and it was everywhere.

MANY incidence related to alcohol...

...but I guess its easier to make $ when its black market...but tax revenue need will change that stranglehold.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:25 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I wonder how many people know that the human body has an endocannabinoid system? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system

That's right. It's such an integral part of the design of our bodies. It's a regulating system, regulating many different essential aspects of human life. Our brains and bodies are equipped with special cannabinoid receptors that only respond to the various cannabinoid molecules, nothing else. And the only place in nature you can get a cannabinoid molecule, outside of your body, which actually produces this class of chemical, is from the cannabis plant. Clearly, we were specifically designed to experience this chemical.

My point is it's safe, and the reason it's illegal here in the US, is to protect the profits of the major corporations like Pharma, Tobacco, Chemical, Alcohol, Paper, Oil etc. The bonus of it being illegal, in addition to generating mountain ranges of untraceable cash in part seized by our government, is they get to build more prisons than schools, so you have a whole percentage of society that literally depends on it to be illegal, at the real human expense of incarcerating the largest percentage of it's population compared to any other country. Land of the free my eye!

It's easily as profitable being illegal as it is being legal, just in different ways. It's where the money goes that is the difference. No matter what, cannabis will generate money. It has always generated money, and it will continue to generate money, no matter how you slice it.

I just don't want to be criminalized for taking a class of chemicals that my body produces anyway. And now I am being discriminated against because I don't live in Washington or Colorado. Enough already!
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:49 PM
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I wonder how many people know that the human body has an endocannabinoid system? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system

That's right. It's such an integral part of the design of our bodies. It's a regulating system, regulating many different essential aspects of human life. Our brains and bodies are equipped with special cannabinoid receptors that only respond to the various cannabinoid molecules, nothing else. And the only place in nature you can get a cannabinoid molecule, outside of your body, which actually produces this class of chemical, is from the cannabis plant. Clearly, we were specifically designed to experience this chemical.

My point is it's safe, and the reason it's illegal here in the US, is to protect the profits of the major corporations like Pharma, Tobacco, Chemical, Alcohol, Paper, Oil etc. The bonus of it being illegal, in addition to generating mountain ranges of untraceable cash in part seized by our government, is they get to build more prisons than schools, so you have a whole percentage of society that literally depends on it to be illegal, at the real human expense of incarcerating the largest percentage of it's population compared to any other country. Land of the free my eye!

It's easily as profitable being illegal as it is being legal, just in different ways. It's where the money goes that is the difference. No matter what, cannabis will generate money. It has always generated money, and it will continue to generate money, no matter how you slice it.

I just don't want to be criminalized for taking a class of chemicals that my body produces anyway. And now I am being discriminated against because I don't live in Washington or Colorado. Enough already!
Larry I agree with you on all that Big Pharma stuff. They are against anything or any remedy that cannot be patented. That's why they attack the natural supplement alternatives as "wackos". Cannot patent something from nature made and by God. Keep pushing dangerous and ineffective radiation and chemo on cancer patients because it's profitable $$, meanwhile successful natural rememdies that actually friggen work and arer safe are illegal in the U.S. www.gerson.org Imagine...fruit and vegetable therapy is illegal!

Legalize pot, ok. I just don't want pot smokers walking around freely. Keep it in the house and away from my kid :)
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:18 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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Booze is far more dangerous and harmful to both self and society. If anything, this should be reversed. Listen to the ex cop in the first response; enough with the damage we allow as a result of prohibition on a mild intoxicant that is demonstrably not as harmful as other currently legal intoxicants. It helps nothing, accomplishes nothing, and literally kills people and ruins lives to have this completely naturally occurring substance be controlled by our government.
Weed alters brain chemistry quite a bit and it's pretty common for people using it to withdraw from life (not everyone). Alcohol certainly has the potential to destroy lives, and it does, but plenty of people use it responsibly. If pot were legal, I bet you'd start seeing more pot-related accidents, fights and crime.

Here pot sent three people to the hospital: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...-pot-brownies/
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:22 AM
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It's not just happenstance that cannabis and music are so intertwined.
One could substitute a lot of other things for the word "cannabis" in the sentence above - including alcohol, self-destruction and addiction. It's a common, seductive and dangerous misconception that using substances somehow makes one more "creative."
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:41 PM
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Weed alters brain chemistry quite a bit
So does salt, coffee, fat, and anything else that enters your bloodstream. Point is, "brain chemistry" is a silly term to use for this.
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and it's pretty common for people using it to withdraw from life (not everyone).
Sorry, man... This sounds to me like every alcoholic I've ever met. They shut themselves in and wallow in booze. Don't even get me started on the effect it has on families. Our government had a whirl at prohibiting booze at one point too. Just as with pot, it didn't work and was a giant waste of time, money, and lives. When something of high demand is illegal, illegal enterprise always steps in.

Quote:
Alcohol certainly has the potential to destroy lives, and it does, but plenty of people use it responsibly.
Alcohol is far more detrimental both long and short term. Apparently there are blinders on in this, because cannabis is also used responsibly for both recreation, and medicine all over the world. Unlike booze which has no accepted medical value beyond emergency anti-septic.

Quote:
If pot were legal, I bet you'd start seeing more pot-related accidents, fights and crime.
This is backwards. "Crime" comes into play because the substance is illegal, not because people steal cars to get a fix of marijuana. Remove illegality, and you remove the majority of harm that it causes society. As far as fights go, ain't nobody who likes to fight more than a drunk.

Quote:
Here pot sent three people to the hospital: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...-pot-brownies/
I don't understand your point. He went to the hospital because someone gave him a mild intoxicant without his knowledge, not because he was ever in any real danger of anything. On the other hand, people die all the time, including children because they got a hold of, or were given alcohol that they were unable to be responsible with.
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Old 12-14-2012, 05:47 PM
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I like to use the morphine analogy. Morphine is legal for doctors to dispense. Do we have a big morphine problem? No. Surely Morphine is more addictive, more toxic, and a lot heavier of a drug than most, right? And it's legal. Where's the crippling morphine addiction problem? Huh? Where is it? Not heroin, morphine. Please point me to it.

Keep an eye on Washington and Colorado for some real life actual examples of what legal cannabis will do to society in those states. If there isn't any detrimental effects in 5 years time, will any opinions be reversed? I doubt it, ignorance is a hardy pest. I mean cannabis is being used by the same people who have been using it all along! Any effects on society...they're already here, duh! They've been here for decades. Is cannabis crippling our society now? Then why should legalizing it change things? Just because the laws changes doesn't mean that all of a sudden things are different society-wise. Tens of millions of people have been using it for decades regardless of some ink in a book. A stupid law being rescinded isn't going to make any difference from the societal aspect of it all.

Alcohol is deadly poisonous in relatively small quantities, yet anyone can legally buy it. Right now, I can go buy enough vodka to kill myself in a matter of hours, no problem. My government is just fine with that. It's extremely difficult to kill yourself with just cannabis alone. You would really have to ingest impossible amounts, and even then you probably won't die. The illegality of cannabis is not tied of the safety of the substance, it's to protect profits of the majors. It's a money thing. This is common knowledge. Keeping it illegal seriously hurts the economics of the world, as it is a plant with so many beneficial uses, it has the ability to totally transform the economic state of things. (Boy could we use some of that right now) We need to go from an oil based society to a plant based society. The oil companies and drug companies and alcohol companies and the timber industries all will quake in their boots at Federal legalization. Good. It's about time they had some competition. They've had a free ride for much too long now. Of course it will take a lot for Federal legalization to happen because the federal government profits so much from it being illegal, in many many different ways. Hopefully greed will take over, as it does in every other area of government, and they will realize that it will be more profitable legal than not. When I was in high school, I thought for sure it would be legalized by now. I really can't believe we are still THAT backwards about a substance, that up until 1937, was a MAJOR driver of the world economy. Check into the history of this plant and you might just be amazed at what was accomplished with the products that this plant offers.

The finest plant oil the world has ever seen. One of the most complete foods found in the plant kingdom that contains all the essential amino acids necessary for life. The finest, toughest long soft fiber in the plant kingdom, resistant to salt water rot. Columbus would never have made it to this part of the world without rot resistant hempen sails. It can feed, clothe, lubricate, shelter and fuel our machines, stop deforestation. Keeping it from society is so criminal. Anyone who doesn't see that... I take pity on for their ignorance of the facts.
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Old 12-16-2012, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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So does salt, coffee, fat, and anything else that enters your bloodstream. Point is, "brain chemistry" is a silly term to use for this.
Sorry, man... This sounds to me like every alcoholic I've ever met. They shut themselves in and wallow in booze. Don't even get me started on the effect it has on families. Our government had a whirl at prohibiting booze at one point too. Just as with pot, it didn't work and was a giant waste of time, money, and lives. When something of high demand is illegal, illegal enterprise always steps in.

Alcohol is far more detrimental both long and short term. Apparently there are blinders on in this, because cannabis is also used responsibly for both recreation, and medicine all over the world. Unlike booze which has no accepted medical value beyond emergency anti-septic.

This is backwards. "Crime" comes into play because the substance is illegal, not because people steal cars to get a fix of marijuana. Remove illegality, and you remove the majority of harm that it causes society. As far as fights go, ain't nobody who likes to fight more than a drunk.

I don't understand your point. He went to the hospital because someone gave him a mild intoxicant without his knowledge, not because he was ever in any real danger of anything. On the other hand, people die all the time, including children because they got a hold of, or were given alcohol that they were unable to be responsible with.
Plenty of anti-alcohol misinformation here. When was the last time a child died from ingesting alcohol? Cannabis sends an average of 1,000 people a day to the hospital in the US even if they ingest it knowingly. Check out http://www.drugabuse.gov/publication...cy-room-visits . If cannabis were legal, I believe we'd see that number increase. I'm sure alcohol sends at least that many drinkers to the emergency room as well - so are you proposing banning it? People can and do die from ingesting too much water at once. The issue for me is not lethality alone. Cannabis is rightfully illegal and I will support efforts to keep the laws as they are.

At the same time, under the American Constitution, I think states should have the rights to regulate this sort of thing. If Washington or Colorado want to make cannabis illegal, then they should have the right to do it. I think they're making a mistake and we'll see over the next few years which of us is proven right.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:37 PM
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Plenty of anti-alcohol misinformation here.
Yea, like what?
Quote:
When was the last time a child died from ingesting alcohol?
Are you just trying to wind me up? I don't get it. A quick google search could quickly tell you what you already know. Alcohol is a patently more dangerous intoxicant than cannabis in literally every single way. http://www.ehow.com/about_5410509_st...poisoning.html hundreds of kids per year.

Quote:
Cannabis sends an average of 1,000 people a day to the hospital in the US even if they ingest it knowingly.
This is absolutely not true. This link cites the proven mis-leading "DAWN" studies, and cites them in mis-leading ways.
Here:
"The federal DAWN report itself notes that reports of marijuana do not mean people are going to the hospital for a marijuana overdose, it only means that people going to the hospital for a drug overdose mention marijuana as a drug they use. Since marijuana is the most widely used illegal drug it is the most mentioned illicit drug when people come to the hospital for any reason. Also, alcohol-in-combination is a larger problem than any of the illicit drugs."

Quote:
If cannabis were legal, I believe we'd see that number increase.
I believe you're right. People would be able to be honest with their doctors about something that they do, but can't fully report because of it's schedule 1 status. Again, though, pot just isn't that dangerous... Nobody actually needs to go to the emergency room from it, because it's not actually going to hurt anyone by itself.

Quote:
I'm sure alcohol sends at least that many drinkers to the emergency room as well - so are you proposing banning it?
And I'm sure you're well aware that you're minimizing here to an extent that's almost funny. Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, with demonstrable harm to society at every level.
40% of all suicide attempts are alcohol-related
54% of all violent crimes are alcohol-related
60% of all emergency room admissions are alcohol-related
80% of all domestic disputes are alcohol-related

And, no, I do not propose banning things just because they are potentially dangerous if abused or mis-used. This is your stance, not mine. I am looking at this logically and overall. There is a hell of a lot less gun violence in the UK, where they are banned... But that doesn't mean that I will support banning useful tools and protective devices for everyone.

Quote:
People can and do die from ingesting too much water at once.
Besides being silly, I'm aware this is true. You've actually just called attention to the fact that technically, water is a more dangerous substance to abuse than pot, let alone alcohol. One can kill you, the other cannot.

Quote:
The issue for me is not lethality alone.
Nor for I, and it should not be. Lots of fun activities are potentially lethal. It appears you may have missed my point, being that we should not be wasting all the time, effort, money and lives on something that is a simply mild intoxicant, with no lethal dose, and is proven to cause less societal harm than other currently legal, taxed, and controlled intoxicants.

Quote:
Cannabis is rightfully illegal and I will support efforts to keep the laws as they are.
This is your opinion, but based on our conversation here, your opinion is based on literally no facts, let alone the common sense of this issue. The illegality causes more harm to us than the "substance" itself. Pair that with the fact that we are literally making no ground in this ridiculous war against pot, and what is the point?

Quote:
At the same time, under the American Constitution, I think states should have the rights to regulate this sort of thing.
No argument here.

Quote:
If Washington or Colorado want to make cannabis illegal, then they should have the right to do it.
I think you meant legal, and again, I agree. People are starting to understand that prohibition of this is causing more harm than the actual substance. Not only that, as with alcohol prohibition, it's simply not popular, and a great many people do not want to waste any more on this.

Quote:
I think they're making a mistake and we'll see over the next few years which of us is proven right.
There's no mistake. This frees up law enforcement to focus on other things, actually dangerous drugs, violent crime, and things that really harm us, like drunk driving.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:34 PM
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I am all for it..outlawing a plant seems kind of ridiculous to me anyway.

I also think it is a rare thing to see people who just smoke pot without also having a drink with it so I am not sure how they determine if someone was driving drunk that they also were not driving stoned? I would guess most police dept's stop at the breathalyzer exam and if they are over than that is all they need to bust em. But maybe they are just barely over the limit and the fact that they crashed or are all over the road etc. is because they are stoned out of their gourds?

I would guess alcohol would take the rap 9 times out of 10. Food for thought.
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Old 12-17-2012, 11:02 PM
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+1.I agree with this 100%.Children die all the time from alcohol overdose,and the number of those deaths is on the rise.Acording to NY City Department of health,teen and pre teen alcohol and related deaths have risen 8 % from the same time last year.

But that has nothing to do with decriminalizing pot.It's safer and cheaper if you grow your own.If we apply the laws related to driving,public intoxication ect.,that we do to alcohol abuse.

Billoins of dollars in resources are tied up in the arrest,prosecution and subsequent action in the care,custody and control of inmates.Lets not forget an arrest record,and jail time that severely limits you ability to get a decent job.That in and of itself,will start the cycle all over again.People become dispondant,depressed and start getting high all over again,often resulting in multiple arrests,and prison time.

According to the US Dept.of Justice,it costs an average of 25-29,000 a year to house a single inmate with California being the highest (I'm shocked) at 47,000 .Having worked in corrections,that figure seems a little low to me.

We jail over 2.5 million people,approx. 750 out of every 100,000(highest on the planet) and 20% of those are for rereational drug use.Since the introduction of the "war on drug mandatory sentenceing laws in 1980,we quadrupled the drug related prison terms.

This is just insane.Time to legalize this stuff.If it dosen't work,then we still have recourse.The 18th and 21st amendments to the U.S. Constitution sound familiar?

Steve B
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  #33  
Old 12-18-2012, 07:47 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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As retired law enforcement I completely agree in legalizing pot or growing certain amounts for personal consumption,just like alcohol is now.The amout of time,money and resources not to mention risking the lives of cops, is staggering.

How many lives have been ruined or lost because of antiquated ideals and laws.If pot was legalized and enormous amout of income through taxation would be realized on municipal,state and federal levels.Not to mention how much jail space would be freed up in an already overcrowded system.

Taxpayer dollars that pay for law enforcement, inmate care and custody could be used in other areas,such as rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure,better education , medical care and research.

In all my years in law enforcement,I've never seen violent behavior or a fight between people that were high on weed.....over eating and protracted laughter yes but violence....never.Conversly with booze,plenty of bar fights,stabbings,shootings,DWIs and broken families.It's time to change our perspective and shift the paradigm.

Steve B
This topic is in full steam ahead mode these days. I don't advacate that anyone drink (I like beer) or smoke or toke however you hit it on the head, police have mentioned more than once that if it were not for booze, they would almost be out of a job. When they legalise it, it will not stop the abusive drinking but people should not fear being a criminal for having a puff or two.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:50 PM
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I don't really need to watch a 40 minuet video to know where I stand on this, but good post.

I also think that this thread needs a crazy radical to say that LSD, shrooms, cocaine ect. should also be legalized to some extent because most of them will only cause self harm, or could be legalized in ways to prevent users to harm others. And this is America, and you should be able to do whatever you want with your body.

So I'll be that. radical.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Yea, like what?
Are you just trying to wind me up? I don't get it. A quick google search could quickly tell you what you already know. Alcohol is a patently more dangerous intoxicant than cannabis in literally every single way. http://www.ehow.com/about_5410509_st...poisoning.html hundreds of kids per year.

This is absolutely not true. This link cites the proven mis-leading "DAWN" studies, and cites them in mis-leading ways.
Here:
"The federal DAWN report itself notes that reports of marijuana do not mean people are going to the hospital for a marijuana overdose, it only means that people going to the hospital for a drug overdose mention marijuana as a drug they use. Since marijuana is the most widely used illegal drug it is the most mentioned illicit drug when people come to the hospital for any reason. Also, alcohol-in-combination is a larger problem than any of the illicit drugs."

I believe you're right. People would be able to be honest with their doctors about something that they do, but can't fully report because of it's schedule 1 status. Again, though, pot just isn't that dangerous... Nobody actually needs to go to the emergency room from it, because it's not actually going to hurt anyone by itself.

And I'm sure you're well aware that you're minimizing here to an extent that's almost funny. Alcohol is a very dangerous drug, with demonstrable harm to society at every level.
40% of all suicide attempts are alcohol-related
54% of all violent crimes are alcohol-related
60% of all emergency room admissions are alcohol-related
80% of all domestic disputes are alcohol-related

And, no, I do not propose banning things just because they are potentially dangerous if abused or mis-used. This is your stance, not mine. I am looking at this logically and overall. There is a hell of a lot less gun violence in the UK, where they are banned... But that doesn't mean that I will support banning useful tools and protective devices for everyone.

Besides being silly, I'm aware this is true. You've actually just called attention to the fact that technically, water is a more dangerous substance to abuse than pot, let alone alcohol. One can kill you, the other cannot.

Nor for I, and it should not be. Lots of fun activities are potentially lethal. It appears you may have missed my point, being that we should not be wasting all the time, effort, money and lives on something that is a simply mild intoxicant, with no lethal dose, and is proven to cause less societal harm than other currently legal, taxed, and controlled intoxicants.

This is your opinion, but based on our conversation here, your opinion is based on literally no facts, let alone the common sense of this issue. The illegality causes more harm to us than the "substance" itself. Pair that with the fact that we are literally making no ground in this ridiculous war against pot, and what is the point?

No argument here.

I think you meant legal, and again, I agree. People are starting to understand that prohibition of this is causing more harm than the actual substance. Not only that, as with alcohol prohibition, it's simply not popular, and a great many people do not want to waste any more on this.

There's no mistake. This frees up law enforcement to focus on other things, actually dangerous drugs, violent crime, and things that really harm us, like drunk driving.
Just drunk driving? Don't you mean driving under the influence - of pot, alcohol or whatever? Also, when you mention the suicides and crimes that are supposedly "alcohol -related," what is that based on? As you ably point out with marijuana, using it and then winding up in an emergency room doesn't necessarily mean the marijuana was a contributing factor.

Again, I just see good reasons to keep pot illegal. This should keep you occupied for a while: http://www.drugfreeworld.org/drugfac...l-effects.html . It sounds as bad as alcohol!
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:31 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

You all know that they had prohibition in the US before. It would just lead to crime because of people who have to have another drink. I'm not supporting it, but I am saying if they made it illegal than would just be a big problem. Why do you want more criminals? That would be almost like outlawing guns here. You turn all of the people who don't want to give it up criminals and there will be problems. I'm not saying we wouldn't be better off now if alcohol was illegal, and had been since the early 1900's, it might be a much better country. Same with cigarettes, but now that it is everywhere, you will have bigger problems making it illegal. I am not in favor of legalizing marijuana. Its still not good for you. I understand freedom, but when you see 12 year olds walking down the street smoking marijuana, it is a problem and it would be everywhere if it was legal.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

I don't think this or any recent thread would be considered "pushing the envelope" anymore.
The off-topic lounge has been in violation of Drummerworld's forum rules for so-long that they might as well not even exist. I truly believe Bernhard should change this to a paid membership forum starting Jan 1st.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

In 2000, Portugal legalized ALL drugs. All the numbers that were up have now gone way down. This is a modern, real life model to scrutinize, that has had ample time for it effects to show up in society. We're just talking cannabis here in the US. They legalized coke, meth, heroin, LSD, peyote as well as cannabis...and their numbers are way down, crime is way down. If it works there....
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

Pot was just legalized here in Colorado. I never cared for it much, but I think I might invest in a pizza delivery business.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

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I don't think this or any recent thread would be considered "pushing the envelope" anymore.
The off-topic lounge has been in violation of Drummerworld's forum rules for so-long that they might as well not even exist. I truly believe Bernhard should change this to a paid membership forum starting Jan 1st.
paid forum?

Do you even know how the internet works?

No way in hell anyone would pay to be a part of a forum, there are tons of other forums almost identical to this one but with less members, everyone would simply migrate there.
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