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  #1  
Old 02-23-2012, 01:22 AM
mont_man22 mont_man22 is offline
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Default Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

I have some 1960's Ludwig maples i purchased a few weeks ago 22x14, 13x9, 16x16. The kit sounds incredible (and the 16x16 floor... possibly my favorite drum ever). However i was hoping for any advise or for someone to tell me i am an idiot. I bought clear emad for the kick batter, and g2's for tom batters, and g1's for resos. I have owned/tuned a ton of kits. This kit in these sizes seems to want to be tuned low (maybe im wrong but they seem the heads seem to sync best with one another at this tuning). I have been tuning the top and bottom head to roughly the same "pitch". However the batter heads seem to be rippling due to the fact that they are so loose. When i tune them up though (top and bottom) they don't seem to have the same "rock" punch and sound out of tune. I wasn't sure if anyone could help me with some advise or tell me why i am having such a hard time. Any help info would be awesome. I love these drums and am interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

Also fyi the rack tom is a blue olive badge and my floor has a keystone badge with an inner layer of a darker wood, mahogany maybe? Idk anyways. Hoping for any additional knowledge.

Thanks everyone!!!
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Well, the only thing I would say is this. I own a vintage (early 70's) Bonham kit, 14x10/16x16/16x18 toms. They are a different animal for sure and sound alot different than "modern" drums in that, in my opinion, they don't sound nearly as good tuned low to get that deeper modern rock sound. Those drums have a sweet spot a little higher pitched. I tune my bottom heads tighter than the top and when I tried to tune the heads low to cop that deep sound you describe, they sounded dull and lifeless. When I tuned them up higher, they came to life and exploded with tone and punch. I have coated vintage emperors over coated ambassadors on the toms and the drums sound insane, but very different than my DW kit. So, in my opinion, I think the classic vintage Ludwig sound comes from heads that are tuned a tad higher. Also, to me, coated heads seem to sound better than clear heads on those drums. Just my opinion for what it's worth...good luck!
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:41 AM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

I'd say the emad is not the choice head, for those drums. I'd run a single ply, head reso, on toms and kick (Ambassador, G1) and single ply batter (Ambassador, G1) or double ply batter (Emperor, G2). Heads like the emad, powerstroke3, heck, even the pinstripe (born in 1974) are made for a more modern sound. Not the good old, vintage Ludwig 3 ply sound.
In 1976, Ludwig started making the 6 ply "stadium" shell. There's where you'll find "rock" punch. Drummers wanted more .... Ludwig delivered. Rogers followed, in 1978, with the XP8 shell.
The dark wood ... mahogany. Ludwig shells were mahogany interior, poplar middle, maple exterior, 63-68, after that, maple, poplar, maple. I just bought some 60's Club Date drums (same shells as Classic, different hardware) ... with white painted interiors, and the inner ply ... mahogany. All the exteriors are maple.
As for tuning, these drums don't respond well to JAW. You need to find the sweet spot. You'll know it when you hit it. Call it low ... high .... whatever. The drum will sound "not so good" below it's sweet spot ... and it won't sound so good if you tune it above it's sweet spot.
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Old 02-23-2012, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

My 60's Ludwigs don't have the tuning range of my 2008 DW's. I can only get 3 good tunings from the Luds, a lower, a medium and a higher. Anything between them sounds wonky. Fortunately, the 3 tunings are enough, but I do prefer a more precision instrument. Nobody can accuse the old Luds of being a precision instrument.
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Old 02-28-2012, 10:24 PM
mont_man22 mont_man22 is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Thanks for all of the input guys!! I think other than the look of the ripple in the floor tom head, i am pleased with the sound of the drums. I get a solid rock sound out of them. People never hesitate to drool over it after my gigs haha. I definitely want to try coated heads next in an attempt to see what kind of sounds i can get out of the drums.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:33 AM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

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Originally Posted by mont_man22 View Post
Thanks for all of the input guys!! I think other than the look of the ripple in the floor tom head, i am pleased with the sound of the drums. I get a solid rock sound out of them. People never hesitate to drool over it after my gigs haha. I definitely want to try coated heads next in an attempt to see what kind of sounds i can get out of the drums.
I'm using single-ply coated heads (Aquarian Studio-X coated w/dot) on my 70s Ludwigs. I've found I need to have the reso tuned a little higher than batter to get good attack and body at the lower tunings. Batter is tighter than JAW. Currently I'm playing 9x13, 16x16, and 16x18 Ludwig toms. I also have an 8x12 and 10x14 (in the drum closet for when I need them). I tune the 16x16 first and then separate the 13 and 18 from it. I've found that the best way, and since your favorite may well be the 16", I recommend tuning the kit around that drum.

I was playing a two-ply clear head (Aquarian Performance II) which were good, but I love a coated head. They sound great and look better.
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Old 02-29-2012, 06:55 AM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

I think the reason the older Luds need to be tuned tighter to get the most from the shell is because the bearing edges on those drums are a little hilly. The head needs enough tension on it so it can conform to the edge's contours.
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Old 09-10-2012, 05:09 PM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Guys with the old 60's Ludwigs what heads on the 22x14 bass would you run?
Would an Aquarian superkick 1 or 2 work etc.
I love that head on my other kits however they are a bit more modern and not sure I'd like the results on the 60's.
Thanks
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Not the head I'd put on mine .... but ..... if you have a "modern" 22, just take a batter head off it, throw it on the Luddy, and see if you like the sound.
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Old 09-10-2012, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

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Originally Posted by harryconway View Post
Not the head I'd put on mine .... but ..... if you have a "modern" 22, just take a batter head off it, throw it on the Luddy, and see if you like the sound.
Hey Harry what do you recommend?
Thanks bud
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Superkicks are a little too muffled, for my tastes. Great for my Yamaha RC's, or my RMV kick, but not for vintage thin shells. I'd go with a single ply (Ambassador) or a double ply (Emperor) head batter ..... and if that's too open for you, then a Powerstroke 3 (Ambassador with a built on richie ring). For reso, I normally use a single ply (Ambassador).
If you're a die hard Aquarian user, I'd drop some "Vintage Series" heads on 'em, and time warp back to the 60's.
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Old 09-10-2012, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Quote:
Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
Guys with the old 60's Ludwigs what heads on the 22x14 bass would you run?
Would an Aquarian superkick 1 or 2 work etc.
I love that head on my other kits however they are a bit more modern and not sure I'd like the results on the 60's.
Thanks
I'd stay away from SKI or II for these. Try Remo PS3 for a modern one (I have one on an old Slingerland bass drum), but there's still nothing wrong with a coated Amb or Emp on the bass drum, with a felt strip. Sounds super when tuned right.....and thats the setup that's on all those great late 60's records!
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  #13  
Old 09-11-2012, 12:35 AM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Ok thanks for the info lads, I'll look into it!

Cheers
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  #14  
Old 09-24-2012, 11:18 PM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Since I have your attention, what would you put on the reso head of the bass drum.
The batter side came with a Remo clear ps4 which I don't mind, ps3 might be better???
As of the front it has a smooth white ambassador, should I put like a Aquarian Force on the front and or port it or not??
Decisions decisions....
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I think the reason the older Luds need to be tuned tighter to get the most from the shell is because the bearing edges on those drums are a little hilly. The head needs enough tension on it so it can conform to the edge's contours.
Good point, that's probably true in alot of cases.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

For what it's worth, I recently wanted to play my vintage Bonham kit out, but it was outfitted with a coated emp over smooth white ambassador on the kick, felt strips with no hole. It sounds great unmic'ed, but mic'ed up in a larger room through a PA, I had to change things a little to "modernize" the sound. I put a clear PS3 on the batter, took the felt strip off and lowered the tuning slightly. Not super loose and floppy, maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn above JAW, cut a 4" hole in the reso head and left the felt strip in. No other muffling was used. Wow, it's a 26" kick drum so it's big sounding, but holy crap! It sounds phenomenal...like it's mic'ed up already. Really cool sound and an absolute blast to play.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

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Originally Posted by cdrums21 View Post
Good point, that's probably true in alot of cases.
You could check it out by removing the head, and carefully laying the drum down on its bearing edge on a flat surface (formica counter tops work well). Shine a light into the drum and see where light comes out between the edge and the counter top to find the low spots on the bearing edge.

A G2 might be less forgiving when conforming to a slightly uneven bearing edge than a G1 or Ambassador. Unless you're gigging these drums a lot and playing very loud, go for a single ply head. You might even prefer the sound.

If the edge is quite uneven, I'd say leave it if a G1 will tune well, and consider getting the edge smoothed out if it doesn't. You say you like the sound coming from it, but if the head isn't laying flat, you haven't heard its full voice yet! If Ludwig could have made all their edges "true" back in the day, they would have...

I would never recommend a drum tuning device other than your own ears and a piano, but the Tune Bot makes sense, since it measures vibrations and not tension. We all know that old drums can be a pain to tune, so why not use a good tool to figure out what's actually happening? You might be able to get more range than you think. And you might just happen to prefer a low tuning on those drums, which is fine, but at least you'd know for sure if the drums can tune up.
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:41 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

I don't think any Ludwigs made pre 1977 have a bearing edge that is flat and true. I've owned 3 Ludwig kits, 76, 66 and another 76 and in all 3 kits the edges are not precision by any means. I'm letting Precision Drums do the bearing edges on my one WMP 76 kit when I have the extra dough, which might not be for a while, because I'm getting a Guru Origin custom kit next year.

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  #19  
Old 10-05-2012, 06:12 PM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Ok Lads I put a coated PS3 on the batter, and kept the smooth ambassador on the reso,(65' Ludwigs) put a felt strip on the front with nothing else inside. I tuned the batter just above the wrinkle and cranked the reso pretty tight not ported, and I'm really digging the full round whomp I get out these things. The 3 ply's are a really solid sounding drums, the bass 22x14 is a great size.
Really enjoying it.
Running coated ambassadors on the batters and clears on the reso for the toms. (13' and 16")

Thanks for the advice I'm loving them.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Make sure to tune the reso head for the "whomp" as well. Your tuning might sound okay from the driver's seat, but make sure it sounds like you want it to from the audience's side. In my experience, a tight reso with these drums gives you a good "doom" but you've got to tune it down for the "whomp"...
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

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Originally Posted by piperdoog View Post
Ok Lads I put a coated PS3 on the batter, and kept the smooth ambassador on the reso,(65' Ludwigs) put a felt strip on the front with nothing else inside. I tuned the batter just above the wrinkle and cranked the reso pretty tight not ported, and I'm really digging the full round whomp I get out these things.
I agree with your tuning method and I'll bet the drum sounds great. That's basically what I did with my 26x14 3 ply Ludwig and it sounds scary good. I think the tighter reso head gives you that roundness and gut shaking punch that's missing in a ported tuned down kick drum. That should sound great in the audience as well. I wish I could do that with my gigging DW kit, but with mic'ing through various PA's and sound guys, the ported reso head with the batter real low and the reso slightly higher works best.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:20 PM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Ok so I've been Playing my vintage 3 ply Ludwigs here for a bit and like the sound of the toms alot, the bass drum is great and am running a ps3 coated with a smooth ambassador reso with a felt striP no port!
I like the boom I get but playing it live I'm thinking I may need it to be a bit more punchy and defined. Also considering the micing situation I'm thinking I should port it 4" off center!
All my kits in the past I have had ported heads, and I do like the sound I have however it is resonating alot!
Any suggestions, will I regret the port possibly with a small towel in it etc!!
Thanks
Suggest please I'm thinking of the port....
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:25 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Lots of great info so far. After owning 5 or 6 vintage Ludwig kits as well as a variety of modern kits, I have a bit of experience in this matter.

My take: Remo coated Emperors over Remo coated Ambassadors on the toms. A Remo coated Powerstroke 3 on the batter side kick (felt strip would help as well), and either a coated Ambassador (with felt strip) on the front of the kick or possibly a smooth white Powerstroke 3 on the front.

I'd tune the heads a little higher than you think you should. These drums don't have the attack that modern kits do (which in my mind is a good thing) so tuning them up a little higher will give them a better ability to "speak". don't worry about having them sound high, the edges will still give the drums a warm thump.

Good luck!
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Piperdoog: put a felt strip on your batter head as well. Or, get a thicker reso head. Porting it will reduce the sustain, but you will also lose some of the boom. Basically, anything you do to it will reduce the sound you like as well as the resonance. It's kinda like when you want to reduce the resonance of a snare drum, so you put on moodgel/gaffer's tape/o-ring/etc., and then you wonder, "Hey, why does my snare sound so muffled?
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:14 PM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Ok thanks a bunch guys I'm not going to port it (as of yet) I do have another felt strip so I'll put that on the batter as well. I only put one on the smooth ambassador reso..
Ok I'll try that..
Cheers.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:03 AM
piperdoog piperdoog is offline
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Ok lads, sorry!!
I had an extra felt strip and I put it on the batter and yup I do like it better.
Now, I will be gigging with this kit so is a port out of the question for these vintage kits??
I don't want to mess with sound guys, and I've heard you pretty much have to port it playing live. so I'm thinking an offset 4"
Thoughts??
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

It is easier for most sound guys to place a microphone in a ported reso head. You have some options here....if you love the sound of the unported head and don't want to lose that fullness and tone, you could insert a mount such as the kelly Shu and mount your own kick mic. You can mic the drum live with a mic on both sides of the kick, mic'ing the batter and reso head and mixing the two. Most sound guys only want to use 1 channel for kick drum, so that may not be an option. If you do port, a 4" hole off center would be my choice. There's still enough head to give you some boom and the mic placement is easy. You will lose that fullness and round tone, but in the house, the sound engineer should be able to get you a punchy fat kick sound, if a quality mic is used. Other than that, I don't know what else you could do.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:30 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

I used to be a porter my whole life. Not any more. Now, I really go for that big tone from an unported unmuffled bass drum, especially unmiced. One observation...When the band is playing, I can't tell my drum is unported by sound alone. All that extra bigness blends right in with the band, in a good way, and sounds great. It also sounds superior in the audience compared to a ported kick. Micing an unported kick drum is easy. Just back off the mic a few inches from the reso and place the mic element halfway between the center of the head and the edge. I recommend a tighter rather than looser kick reso tuning for unported.

It's strange. We mic toms from the batter. They are unported. Why then does an unported kick drum get miced from the reso? Yes it's easier to place a mic there but is it a superior sound? If it is, why aren't toms miced from the reso? It would get them out of the way more. Maybe an unported kick would sound better miced from the batter head? As long as there is no pedal noise I wonder if this is a better way to go. Dennis?
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:23 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

Hey boys, very good points, that's why I love this page, very insightful!
I agree with the micing, it is strange that you don't see more unported heads while at live shows etc....
Well I did it I ported it as I have a show here in a bit and I like both for many reasons.
Ported:
I like the defined hit and separation I hear and actually feel from the pedal, also I like the fact I can muffle the inside by a towel or what have you by having that hole there. I do like a definitive hit of the bass drum instead of a boom (which I also like) that I get with the unported.
Last but not least obviously micing will not be a problem for the sound guys etc..

Un-ported:
Ok these are vintage 3 ply drums and the boom I get from this bass drum is awesome and should be played this way. It's a different way than I have ever played my kits from the past which also makes it interesting. It' is a little getting used to but sounds huge.

So I guess the simple solution is getting another bass drum head!!

I like things to be tuned and set and switching out heads to me anyways is a pain in the ass.
So when I have a stretch of live gigs, the ported goes in, when jamming in the basement the non ported goes in.
An extra $30 for another head is no biggie.

Thanks for all the advice guys, know I appreciate it..
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Tuning 1960's Ludwig maples

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Micing an unported kick drum is easy. Just back off the mic a few inches from the reso and place the mic element halfway between the center of the head and the edge.

Maybe an unported kick would sound better miced from the batter head? As long as there is no pedal noise I wonder if this is a better way to go. Dennis?
It is easy to mic, but not always practical. In my experience, in most live gigs in clubs, there isn't enough room on stage to have a microphone out in front of the bass drum without it being in danger of being kicked. Plus, there is the problem of bleed from other instruments when the mic is backed off away from the reso head. An internal mic mounted permanaently inside a non ported kick drum works well, but if the mic shits the bed for some reason, you're screwed.

Mic'ing the batter head on the kick drum is an effective way to mic it, but it gets alot of attack and not enough of the kick drums boom in most cases. That's why when recording an unported kick, mic'ing both heads is usually preferred.
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