Pop music too loud and all sounds the same

[aydee]

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[MJD]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

"Desperate melismas" is perfect. May I borrow it? :)

None of this has been helped by the Idol shows, where the singers have one song to prove that they have the chops if required, so they show them off where it's not required (or even desirable).

The trend was already there, as you say, to provide some interest in slapdash, formulaic commercial tunes but the "sensitive talented female singer with the big voice who is cute and can dance" meme has been done to death.

Bring on the edgy women, I say!

Didn't know about Bing singing faster tunes, apart from his version of Caravan that IMO sounded anaemic as compared with Duke's.

Well, to be fair almost everything is anaemic compared with Duke. And yeah Idol has pushed that trend to it's limits. But I went to school with some really good musicians and singers and i hope that we can break through and bring things back to a good level. I just wish we still had vaudeville to cut our teeth in. The most useful thing about vaudeville was it separated those who had what it took from those who didnt in swift fashion because you would get the hook and be fired that very night if you were underpar. It forced a give it your all everynight attitude. Knock em dead being the goal of the performance because otherwise you wouldnt have a job the next day And of course you can use "desperate mellismas"

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by aydee

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Attachment 50460

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Hey Bieber...... BANG!!!!

[Flak88]

I agree with the article. I researched it online after reading this thread, and people are saying it has it's place in music, but it's simply been done to death. Although the death of it hasn't quite gotten here yet.

I also didn't know what "melisma" was, so I looked it up. lol

Hopefully it will go back to being used in moderation, but in the entertainment world that rarely happens.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by Flak88

I agree with the article. I researched it online after reading this thread, and people are saying it has it's place in music, but it's simply been done to death. Although the death of it hasn't quite gotten here yet.

I also didn't know what "melisma" was, so I looked it up. lol

Hopefully it will go back to being used in moderation, but in the entertainment world that rarely happens.

Ah, I sometimes forget most people who play music didnt go to a conservatory. I dont mean to be obscure when i use language like that, at this point it's second nature.

[Anon La Ply]

Abe, good to see you're in the land of the living!

I first learnt about melisma from a Steely Dan interview in the 70s; Walter talked about Donald not being "capable of the subtle art of melisma" (or words to that effect).

Originally Posted by MJD

Well, to be fair almost everything is anaemic compared with Duke. And yeah Idol has pushed that trend to it's limits. But I went to school with some really good musicians and singers and i hope that we can break through and bring things back to a good level.

No doubt people from music school can provide the quality musicianship - but whether you can make money playing quality music or reach a broad audience ...

Yes, we don't have that school of hard knocks any more. Still, that can bring a different, more introspective flavour to music but the big sellers seem to be mostly in the teen market.

[Longfuse]

Since the early days of Rock and Roll, Pop music has always been for kids. There have been brief blips in chart history when more 'mature' music entered the fray, but mostly it was always for the teen market. Probably why I stopped listening to the charts in the early 80s.

Weird thing is that music has become so disposable that a lot of teens aren't even that interested in it. My young nephews (much to my brother's disappointment) don't listen to much music: sport is more their thing. They take music for granted - something that's always there, available for free, why get in a lather about it?

I feel sorry for the Queen having to sit through stuff she thought was 'new-fangled' when all those 'sirs' were contemporary. No wonder she looked at her watch during the Olympics opening ceremony...should have played her some Glenn Miller...or Iron Maiden (I always get the two confused).

[MJD]

Originally Posted by Longfuse

Since the early days of Rock and Roll, Pop music has always been for kids. There have been brief blips in chart history when more 'mature' music entered the fray, but mostly it was always for the teen market. Probably why I stopped listening to the charts in the early 80s.

Weird thing is that music has become so disposable that a lot of teens aren't even that interested in it. My young nephews (much to my brother's disappointment) don't listen to much music: sport is more their thing. They take music for granted - something that's always there, available for free, why get in a lather about it?

I feel sorry for the Queen having to sit through stuff she thought was 'new-fangled' when all those 'sirs' were contemporary. No wonder she looked at her watch during the Olympics opening ceremony...should have played her some Glenn Miller...or Iron Maiden (I always get the two confused).

More accurately: Since the early days of Minstrelsy pop music has been always been for kids etc.etc. etc. Minstrel tunes being the first genuinely american pop music and all that. Dixie was a pop song written in NYC for a minstrel show. gotta love music history, it lets you put things in perspective.

[shadowlorde]

i'm starting to feel old .. i'm only 25 and already getting the "why can't music be as good as it used to be" complex ...radio-wise of course .. there are many newer bands I listen to .. mostly through pandora radio searching for older bands that kick ass and getting similar bands ..

pop is bad ...but even worse .. I can't understand this dub-step stuff for anything

to me it sounds like.. twitchy bass frequencies speeding up and slowing down in some wah wah wah wom wom wom wah wah wah wom wom wom kinda morse code then high pitched "psycho" shrieks .. crappy sampled drum beat, and one sentence of lyrical content repeated over and over again in a strange way ..


side note .. my guitarist is not nearly as close minded .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mma_...7&feature=plcp that video is him tapping the melody to that "break your heart" song by taio cruz which is creative and pretty f'in nifty. there is hope for pop .. THEY JUST HAVE TO DROP THE SYNTHS AND BRING BACK REAL MOTHER-SMURFIN MUSICIANS WHO ARE AT AN ABOVE COMPETENT PLAYING LEVEL.

[BacteriumFendYoke]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with synthesisers, Shadowlorde.

I think the last thing popular music needs is more guitar-based bands.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by shadowlorde

i'm starting to feel old .. i'm only 25 and already getting the "why can't music be as good as it used to be" complex ...radio-wise of course .. there are many newer bands I listen to .. mostly through pandora radio searching for older bands that kick ass and getting similar bands ..

pop is bad ...but even worse .. I can't understand this dub-step stuff for anything

to me it sounds like.. twitchy bass frequencies speeding up and slowing down in some wah wah wah wom wom wom wah wah wah wom wom wom kinda morse code then high pitched "psycho" shrieks .. crappy sampled drum beat, and one sentence of lyrical content repeated over and over again in a strange way ..


side note .. my guitarist is not nearly as close minded .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mma_...7&feature=plcp that video is him tapping the melody to that "break your heart" song by taio cruz which is creative and pretty f'in nifty. there is hope for pop .. THEY JUST HAVE TO DROP THE SYNTHS AND BRING BACK REAL MOTHER-SMURFIN MUSICIANS WHO ARE AT AN ABOVE COMPETENT PLAYING LEVEL.

Ah but dub-step is all about syncopations on 16th 32nd and occasionally 64th notes. As a drummer i find it fascinating. try playing those beats( and thats all dub-step is made up of) that they make up with electronic sounds (the drum samples you speak of serve as something to syncopate against like the left hand in a ragtime piano piece) on an acoustic set and i think you'll find a new appreciation for this genre. Synths are an instrument and require as skilled a musician to play them well as any other instrument in the pantheon.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke

There is absolutely nothing wrong with synthesisers, Shadowlorde.
Absolutely agree!!!!

I think the last thing popular music needs is more guitar-based bands.

Nothing wrong with guitar based bands either. There don't seem to be all that many good new ones at the moment but that's a different issue which has more to do with songwriting.

[jaka44]

Originally Posted by MJD

Nothing wrong with guitar based bands either. There don't seem to be all that many good new ones at the moment but that's a different issue which has more to do with songwriting.

completely agree....in fact, a great guitar player is exactly what pop music needs right now, at the talent level of Jimi or SRV...or both.

[Swiss Matthias]

What about John Mayer?

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

What about John Mayer?

JM is a young guy playing old school music - love the live trio videos with Steve Jordan and Pino.

i like top 40 for what its worth. gets me on the dance floor and gets toes tapping. its catchy!

flor rida, swedish house mafia and david guetta are great but I know their place in the music hierarchy - low

listen to flo rida then listen to rush - La Villa Strangiato.... they both have a special role for different people. when i feel like partying and drinking with friends I will put on commercial house music and when I am chillin at home and want something fresh I will put on rush.

this music is popular because look at the kids of today - mindless drones who's nutritional guidance is mcdonalds and redbull. my cat usually has more to talk about that teens of these days. And its not just teens. mid 20s at the bars are just as emotionally numb as the teens. try talking to some boozed up 23 year old at the club who only listens to dead maus and niki minage all day long. she hears real drums and guitar and will want to 'like totally kill herself' haha

music award shows are not based on talent, its a popularity contest.

one thing for sure is dub step is the worst music - EVER. have you actually ever listened to it?!?

[tamadrm]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

"Desperate melismas" is perfect. May I borrow it? :)

None of this has been helped by the Idol shows, where the singers have one song to prove that they have the chops if required, so they show them off where it's not required (or even desirable).

The trend was already there, as you say, to provide some interest in slapdash, formulaic commercial tunes but the "sensitive talented female singer with the big voice who is cute and can dance" meme has been done to death.

Bring on the edgy women, I say!

Didn't know about Bing singing faster tunes, apart from his version of Caravan that IMO sounded anaemic as compared with Duke's.

Just give me some Bonnie Raitt,Nora Jones,Diana Krall,Susan Tedeschi,and some Willson sisters AKA Ann and Nancy AKA Heart.Ann can still hit those big notes.There's some edge for ya'.

Steve B

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by tamadrm

...and some Willson sisters AKA Ann and Nancy AKA Heart.Ann can still hit those big notes.

I use to love Heart, great band and great songs... here's the overheard single "Alone", an acoustic live version from 2002 and the original video from 1987...

Live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rO6n4fzF-U

Original video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cw1n...3bT-iCIVIfztnu

... it feature Denny Carmassi on drums (ex-drummer for the legendary rock group Montrose)

[MJD]

Originally Posted by jaka44

completely agree....in fact, a great guitar player is exactly what pop music needs right now, at the talent level of Jimi or SRV...or both.

Possibly. But somehow i think the world needs some better drummers first. Try and imagine Hendrix tunes without those grooves Mitch Mitchell came up with and they dont have anywhere near the same impact. Been thinking about this for awhile cause i'm trying to get out of the classical realm and into the pop realm. My problem is that my favorite pop music was mostly written prior to 1950 (Jerome Kern, Irving Berlin, George Gershwin, Cole Porter etc) And i naturally write melodies that are in that vein. finding grooves for those things that will make it sound like modern pop and still fit the music has been a challenge. Still working on it, but the idea is too mix modern dance grooves with a Tin Pan Alley aesthetic. I'll post something when i get closer.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

JM is a young guy playing old school music - love the live trio videos with Steve Jordan and Pino.

Old School? Sorry but Mozart is old school even Lehar is old school. JM is very much of the new school and style. He's playing a type of music that has barely reached the 50 year minimum to be considered classical. Want REALLY old school listen to Josquin

[wy yung]

Hmmmmm, pop music = bad and will bring down the establishment.

Heard it before. The same claim was made decade after decade for the past 60 years. And before that swing drummers complained about bop drummers. The list goes on.

I see someone quotes Stevie Wonder and Cat Stevens from the 70's. Great lyrics to be sure. Here is some more 70's lyrics
"I wanna rock and roll all night
And party every day."

Deep.

[Swiss Matthias]

Good to see you back Wy :).

[wy yung]

Thanks mate.

As for pop music... it is what it is and always was. Happily I do not watch TV, nor do I listen to popular radio. My experience with pop music is limited to students presenting ipods with tunes they wish to learn. For me it is all the same, Avenged sevenfold, Led Zep, Beyonce, just more stuff to transcribe. :-)

I am more old school. I ignore the charts and search for new music. Mainly because I enjoy that method. I do think it silly though for people to look for depth in pop music. What an oximoron. I would rather listen to Irvin Mayfield play his trumpet that Beyonce sing. But then sometimes I enjoy listening to pop. Notes on a page... ;-)

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by BacteriumFendYoke

On the other hand, sometimes interesting songs become popular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UVNT4wvIGY

Ok, the lyric is fairly asinine but there's some interesting things going on. The melody is vaguely Phil Collins-esque (in the good way) and the instrumentation is totally off the wall. The video is great. There are gems out there.

Watch the album charts, too. Those are often much more interesting.

Ha - I've heard this song a few times since and it's really growing on me. The vocals are outstanding - very expressive. Agree about the melodies, instrumentation and video too.

Funny thing, just been watching the Burns jazz series and the early bop players complained about all the commercial swing going on at the time Harks back to Wy's post). They had some pretty crappy stuff back then too - Dad used to like Kay Kaiser (a swing/pop big band leader) and I thought the music was very dull, cynical and lacking dynamics in much the same way as some of the recent compressed stuff.

Of course, some of the "pop" back then was great too, eg. In the Mood.

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Funny thing, just been watching the Burns jazz series and the early bop players complained about all the commercial swing going on at the time Harks back to Wy's post). They had some pretty crappy stuff back then too - Dad used to like Kay Kaiser (a swing/pop big band leader) and I thought the music was very dull, cynical and lacking dynamics in much the same way as some of the recent compressed stuff.

Of course, some of the "pop" back then was great too, eg. In the Mood.

For sure! My Dad, who was a jazz fanatic, born in the 20's and played drums until he died in 2000, complained all the time about the crappy / cheesy stuff that so many tried to sell over as jazz. That being said, he didn't take too fondly to bop either.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by MJD

And also remember Jazz is pop music as are all of it's offshoots(rock etc)

But rock is not an offshoot of jazz. Rock is a direct descendant of southern guitar blues.

And jazz stopped being popular music when big bands began dying out and bebop became the new model.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by con struct

But rock is not an offshoot of jazz. Rock is a direct descendant of southern guitar blues.

And jazz stopped being popular music when big bands began dying out and bebop became the new model.

Once pop music always pop music. Symphony and Opera is still pop in my book. Rock is not just the descendant of southern guitar blues. R&B (a type of bigband jazz with a heavier backbeat) is also one of it's direct predecessors as is C&W. Rock is an amalgamation of the pop music of the first half of the 20th century. in terms of song structure it owes a lot to C&W. in terms of rhythm and beat initially it bore much more resemblance to jazz. Listen to the drumming on early rock records. swing beat with snare on 2 and 4 while the guitar and piano hold down straight eighths giving a polyrhythmic feel. eventually things got evened out. straight eighths started holding sway. Also jazz is an offshoot of blues,ragtime, and marching music or was initially. regardless of how these genres are perceived now they all started as music for popular consumption and at their heart remain so.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by MJD

Once pop music always pop music. Symphony and Opera is still pop in my book.

Some of it was pop in its day for the upper classes and some wasn't - big difference between Mozart and Varese. Since then new genres have sprung up and classical music had to be recontextualised.

Another thought ... popular with whom? Classical came from church music and was popular with the upper classes. The peasants at the time would have played folk / indigenous music but you don't hear so much about folk music of the classical period because peasants don't feature so much with historians.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by MJD

Symphony and Opera is still pop in my book.

That's one hell of an obscure book you've got there.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Some of it was pop in its day for the upper classes and some wasn't - big difference between Mozart and Varese. Since then new genres have sprung up and classical music had to be recontextualised.

Another thought ... popular with whom? Classical came from church music and was popular with the upper classes. The peasants at the time would have played folk / indigenous music but you don't hear so much about folk music of the classical period because peasants don't feature so much with historians.

Half of the so called folk music of that period can be traced back to operas and other works of a century or two before. melodically anyway. i know people who have insisted that Oh, Susannah and Dixie are American folk songs when it's pretty clear that they were written for minstrel shows and are thus pop/theatre songs. These tunes get popular and then the origins get forgotten. And as to church music. That started getting infiltrated by the pop music of the day as early as the mediaeval period. cross pollination, the motet form serving as both sacred and secular. Most of the composers wrote both secular(pop) and sacred(church) music Palestrina included.

[MJD]

Originally Posted by con struct

That's one hell of an obscure book you've got there.

I dont know how obscure it is. But i go on music history/ musicology kicks rather frequently.