Manufacturing issues...what's acceptable...what isn't

[section8usmc]

Anyone who has been around this forum for any period of time, knows there have been many threads either starting, or ending up discussing physical flaws/defects in drums, be it the materials themselves, or the manufacturing process.

Going by all of the threads I have read, there is a lot of bashing going on because a lot of comments are very one sided. " Brand X is complete garbage. If you buy brand Y like me you'll have no problems". That sort of thing. What I am after in his thread is to get rid of that.

All drums, regardless of brand, price, etc, are basically the same. I said basically. I don't want people nit picking stupid stuff like that. There are several materials, but all share the basics. A shell, a bearing edge, hoops, lugs, and so on.

What I am curious to know, is what people find acceptable as far as these flaws go. Obviously how much you pay is going to affect what you expect in the build of your drums. So, assuming that you are buying a mid level kit on up, what are your expectations? What issues are you willing to overlook, and what issues are completely unforgivable?

Example. Nicks in the bearing edge. I have seem some people that could care less unless it looks like the Grand Canyon, and others that will have a total meltdown over the slightest little dent. Not only what, but why? Why do you feel this problem or that should be or should not be overlooked? Let's keep brands out of this please. Hardware should be kept out too, in my opinion. Hardware although important is easily replaced and you can interchange a lot of stuff. So bass pedal A can be used with brand B. It really doesn't matter. Lugs, vent holes, stuff that is in direct relation to the drum if it were say, sitting on a table by itself. Finish included!

[section8usmc]

To be clear, I realize there is a lot of room for interpretation here with price, but what I'm getting at is not considering bottom of the barrel bargain bin drum. Price is relative and varies from one person to the next. So, include it if need be. For example, " if I'm paying more than $1,000 for a kit, I would expect this. If I were paying upwards of $3,000, I'd expect this, or, I would expect this regardless of price."

[GRUNTERSDAD]

For a mid level kit or better I find no excuse for dents or voids in bearing edges. The person cutting the edge or the person putting on the heads should be looking for that. Whether or not a 1/8th inch dent or void will affect the sound is not relevant. As the buyer I am convinced it not only affects the sound but also is a sign of the overall care taken in the building process.

[section8usmc]

I am probably on the more picky side on this subject. I guess one reason I started this thread is to learn more about myself, and the people around me. Am I TOO picky? Am I expecting, too much for my money from consumer products in general? I see myself as just wanting to get what is advertised. If the company tells me that this product will do A,B, & C, it should not only do those things, but do them better than half passed.

To me, musical instrument are supposed to be more precise. There should be care taken in the build process. The people building them should be craftsman, not factory workers. They should love what they do, and consider it a part of themselves. Instruments are supposed to be beautiful. I know it takes all kinds, but in general, who buys an ugly instrument? It should sound as good as it looks, and vice versa.

I know more automation is used by a lot of companies, but even those still do the majority of the work hands on. Technology is a good thing when used in the right places, because even with wood, the tolerances can be so minute. That why I wanted to exclude the starter kits and such, because the vast majority of people buying those are not concerned about such things for the most part. But when your pockets start getting a little light from your purchase, that seems to be where the line is for expectations, pretty much with any instrument. They all have that point where the attitude toward quality really changes.

[radman]

In I wade ... ;-)

It is difficult to set a price bracket, given the difference these days with shell packs and sets with snares and h/w incl. Keeping with kits at specific target groups:

Starter/Entry Level - Expectations are pretty low. Most kits would be wrap and hopefully it wouldn't be lifted. Seams expected to be ugly. Bearing edges ... hope for the best. Interior of drum is irrelevant. Hardware should not strip, but prob would have limited lifespan. Bottom line: Disposable kits that are bought to see if young Johnny will stick with his budding musical career.

Mid Level - This is prob the biggest area of debate. Kits would be wrap or finish: wrap should have nice seams and no lifting/bubbling; finish should be clean and clear, but I would suspect any kit would have a few blemishes. Drum interior would be clean, but likely with a blemish on about 30%-40% of the drums. Bearing edges should be near perfect, but possibly with a flat spot or nick here or there - but any sound difference should be undetectable to the average ear (an extremely subjective statement ...). Drums should tune up well - hopefully in a variety of ranges - and stay in tune well. One big separator for the good from bad would be h/w - expectation (mine, personally) is that the h/w and pedals should put up with years and years of gigging use.
Bottom line: Kits for the semi-pro, working/gigging drummer, who can leave the kit at the club and still sleep at night. Getting a good set and upgrading the snare might be "the" kit.

Pro - These kits are the source of much angst when things go wrong and, though by nature I am passive, rightly so. These drums should be perfect sonically and almost perfect cosmetically. Finish/Wrap should be perfect from the factory. No haze, orange peel, specks, etc. Personal opinion is the interior might have a scratch or a spot of "ugly wood" here or there. Bearing edges should be flawless - no issues. Obviously the drums should tune up quickly and consistently - and stay there for the whatever session is in play. Hardware should outlive any of us.
Bottom line: These are the kits many only can dream about owning (guilt free). These are not built by the 1000s on a production line in a sweaty factory in a smelly place, but individually in a sweaty factory in a place where the builders know and care. (yes, I have an idealistic view of these kits.)

I can't believe my A-D-D let me compose a post this long. Apologies, but section8usmc asked. I hope someone read it..... :-/

Peace and sustain.
radman

[section8usmc]

Actually that pretty much what I was hoping for. If enough people post honestly, I will be able to see what is the majority, and where I fit. That was a good response IMO. Everyone will have varying opinions. The length was fine. Look how long they get when pictures are posted and discussions get heated. It's all good!

[bermuda]

I look/listen for construction integrity, but only to realistic extents. If I can't see or hear a problem with something that should be seen or heard, then it's fine. I'm not going to hold a gun to a company's (or store's) head for something that doesn't genuinely affect the way something is intended to look, sound, or function. If ever in doubt about which way to go on a possible problem, I ask myself 'does it really matter?' And, sometimes it does, and is a battle worth fighting.

But I don't feel that price can really qualify what's acceptable. If there's a problem that gets in the way of how the item should look, sound or operate, it's still a problem at any price, and needs to be fixed.

Bermuda

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD

For a mid level kit or better I find no excuse for dents or voids in bearing edges. The person cutting the edge or the person putting on the heads should be looking for that. Whether or not a 1/8th inch dent or void will affect the sound is not relevant. As the buyer I am convinced it not only affects the sound but also is a sign of the overall care taken in the building process.

A superbly balanced response, & actually gets to the bottom of the real issue here, customer expectation. That's not a drumming thing, it applies universally. It is fair to ask whether the customers expectation is realistic, given the price paid, or when compared to the company's own advertising. If a certain degree of inaccuracy or finish variation is viewed as permissible by the manufacturer, then it should be clearly stated as such in the conditions of sale or easily available in their marketing materials. Personally, I can't see that happening, as it doesn't sit comfortably with the impression often created.

Originally Posted by radman

Pro -
Personal opinion is the interior might have a scratch or a spot of "ugly wood" here or there.

By "ugly" wood, I assume you mean of poor finish. That's borderline for me, but if you mean of poor quality, then that's over the line in a top draw instrument. Even a poor internal finish I take as a red flag towards areas I can't readily asses visually.

Originally Posted by section8usmc

The people building them should be craftsman, not factory workers.

Unfortunately, you've just excluded 99% (by volume) of all drums out there. Drums are competitively priced, even cheap, by comparison to other instruments & what you're actually getting for your money. How & by whom they're built is a big part of that.

Originally Posted by bermuda

I'm not going to hold a gun to a company's (or store's) head for something that doesn't genuinely affect the way something is intended to look, sound, or function.

Bermuda

I agree, but to a point. Let's take an often sighted example, the shell being out of round by 1/8". First off, this has to be placed in context. 1/8" has less affect on a big drum than it does on a small drum. It's also much more difficult to control in manufacture on a big drum than a small drum, not least of all on a thin shell, because that shell has an inherent degree of flex. That out of the way, I pull my high end drum out of the packing box, measure it, & find it's out of round by x amount. I assemble & tune the drum, it sounds just fine, but how do I know if it would sound better if it was accurately made? If I know a lot about drums & how they should sound, then maybe I'm in a position to make an informed decision on that. If I had another sample I could A-B, then again, I could make an informed decision, but is it really up to the customer to both examine and know this stuff?

Originally Posted by bermuda

But I don't feel that price can really qualify what's acceptable.

Bermuda

If we're talking about big obvious fundamental stuff, then yes. Smaller stuff however, I think there has to be a linear relationship between price & expectation.

[Chunkaway]

I'll just say this, if you are looking/expecting perfection (or nearly perfection) in ANYTHING, you are going to be disappointed.

I just bought a $35K car, and it is great...except it does have some small issues that needed to be addressed by the manufacturer. Am I frustrated? Yeah a little. Is it the end of the world? Hell no. It's a thing. An expensive thing, but it is still a thing, made by humans. It is going to have some flaws. You deal with the flaws, or you get the flaws fixed, or whatever, and you move on.

Note: I'm not saying people should accept shoddy merchandise, I actually believe it is important to point out the flaws to the manufacturer (as I did with my car). However, I don't have an expectation that the car should have been perfect in every single way, therefore if it has a flaw I'm going to demand I get my money back. If there is a problem, I ask the manufacturer to "fix" the issue(s) and I go from there.

I believe that there are a lot of people that expect behavior/quality from others that they themselves are unwilling/unable to provide. At least be realistic, that's all I'm suggesting.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Speaking of cars. Automobile companies are forced to have recalls many times for product issues. Most of these are safety related and some are customer complaint issues. And yet we all are afraid to mention a flaw on a set of drums for fear that the store or the manufacturer will turn a deaf ear. I don't think public bashing is the answer nor do I feel ignoring the problem will make it go away. With the number of members on this forum that could be alerted, it may be a good idea if members with the same issues were to draft a letter, sign it and send it to the appropriate company. Maybe if they see a number of people with the same issue they may be a little better at responding. I was lucky in finding my drum set but guarantee you if I waited 6 or 7 monthes for a kit and found voids in the bearing egde or a small ding here or there they would hear me from my house. I contracted for a new set without flaws and that is what I expected. I didnt send them 98 percent of the asking fee and I don't want a drum set that was attended too with 98 percent effort..

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

Let's take an often sighted example, the shell being out of round by 1/8". First off, this has to be placed in context. 1/8" has less affect on a big drum than it does on a small drum.

Any 'problem' needs to be placed in context, hence my qualification: does the perceived issue keep the item from looking, sounding, or functioning as it was intended. So, yes, a 1/8" out of round shell is not an issue on a 16" tom, but may be on a 10". At that point, my ears make a decision, not my eyes.

If we're talking about big obvious fundamental stuff, then yes. Smaller stuff however, I think there has to be a linear relationship between price & expectation.

The issues are only so forgivable though. Some are too egregious even for a $129 toddler's set. If the wrap is supposed to be affixed to the shell, I won't accept bubbling or lifitng on it, even at that price.

It does irk me a little that things can't be made to spec all the time. But it would be easy to spend my entire life demanding absolute perfection, and driving myself crazy in its pursuit. There needs to be a certain amount of reasonable, realistic assessment of the products we buy, before trashing the item or company online, or threatening litigation. It's become so common, I tend to not pay much attention to such complaints unless they've got it really right, or really wrong.

Bermuda

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Any 'problem' needs to be placed in context, hence my qualification: does the perceived issue keep the item from looking, sounding, or functioning as it was intended. So, yes, a 1/8" out of round shell is not an issue on a 16" tom, but may be on a 10". At that point, my ears make a decision, not my eyes.



The issues are only so forgivable though. Some are too egregious even for a $129 toddler's set. If the wrap is supposed to be affixed to the shell, I won't accept bubbling or lifitng on it, even at that price.

It does irk me a little that things can't be made to spec all the time. But it would be easy to spend my entire life demanding absolute perfection, and driving myself crazy in its pursuit. There needs to be a certain amount of reasonable, realistic assessment of the products we buy, before trashing the item or company online, or threatening litigation. It's become so common, I tend to not pay much attention to such complaints unless they've got it really right, or really wrong.

Bermuda

I think we're in broad agreement, especially on trashing a company online before the matter has had a chance to work through. Any company should be given ample opportunity to rectify a mistake. They happen, even when the very best of attention is placed on quality control.

Agreed also, that wasting valuable time & getting stressed out in the pursuit of absolute perfection isn't healthy or productive, but I still maintain there's a rightful relationship between price paid & expectation, otherwise the point in buying an upper line piece is somewhat diminished. There's a related point here too, when a company promotes something as their top of the range line, they're putting that product out there as being the very best they can offer. Should that product fall short, it says much about what customers of their lower lines can expect. That's a governance issue that I'd attach huge gravity too if it were my company. Quality control should be a priority in any organisation, & applied across all products with criteria set according to expectations relative to that product. Accordingly, the inspection criteria applied to top line product should be pretty unforgiving, & should certainly exclude issues such as damaged bearing edges. Even with such an inspection regime, theres no guarantee of everything being satisfactory, but it at least eliminates the silly stuff falling through the net.

[marko138]

I expect brand new drums at just about any price to be perfect. Why? Well, we work hard for our money. We spend our hard earned dollars on this stuff and it should be right. Why should I put up with flaws when it should have been addressed before leaving the factory.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by marko138

I expect brand new drums at just about any price to be perfect. Why? Well, we work hard for our money. We spend our hard earned dollars on this stuff and it should be right. Why should I put up with flaws when it should have been addressed before leaving the factory.

The question is, what constitutes a flaw? Some things are obvious and customers would unanimously agree there's a problem that needs to be fixed. But others are subjective, or inconsequential.

Suppose you have a drum in a natural wood finish. Do you expect the grain to be even, smooth, with no occlusions of any kind? That would probably be considered perfect, right? But there are drummers who believe that wood, as an organic and natural thing, should include marks & variations, and that a perfect piece of wood is in fact, quite imperfect.

I own a LOT of drums, and I'd venture to say that none of them, new or old, are 'perfect'. That is, I know I could find some tiny flaw in each that the manufacturer would probably prefer isn't there. But, all of the drums sound great, and that's what's important. I don't buy drums - or anything - on the principle of, it has to be perfect or it's useless. The only rule is, does it serve its purpose for me. If so, then my hard-earned money was spent wisely. If it doesn't serve that purpose, then it's unacceptable and I seek the appropriate remedy.

I'm not saying don't complain if there's a problem. I'm saying it's important to determine what's actually a problem, and what's nit-picking 'just because'.

Bermuda

[marko138]

Originally Posted by bermuda

The question is, what constitutes a flaw? Some things are obvious and customers would unanimously agree there's a problem that needs to be fixed. But others are subjective, or inconsequential.

Suppose you have a drum in a natural wood finish. Do you expect the grain to be even, smooth, with no occlusions of any kind? That would probably be considered perfect, right? But there are drummers who believe that wood, as an organic and natural thing, should include marks & variations, and that a perfect piece of wood is in fact, quite imperfect.

I own a LOT of drums, and I'd venture to say that none of them, new or old, are 'perfect'. That is, I know I could find some tiny flaw in each that the manufacturer would probably prefer isn't there. But, all of the drums sound great, and that's what's important. I don't buy drums - or anything - on the principle of, it has to be perfect or it's useless. The only rule is, does it serve its purpose for me. If so, then my hard-earned money was spent wisely. If it doesn't serve that purpose, then it's unacceptable and I seek the appropriate remedy.

I'm not saying don't complain if there's a problem. I'm saying it's important to determine what's actually a problem, and what's nit-picking 'just because'.

Bermuda

Ya, I understand what you're saying. I know there's nothing that's really perfect. I mean lifts in a wrap finish or bad seams.

I guess I really mean dings in the finish or dings in the bearing edge. Seems like that kind of stuff shouldn't happen.

And, my drums are far from perfect. But I've never bought brand new drums.

[AirborneSFC]

Originally Posted by bermuda

The question is, what constitutes a flaw? Some things are obvious and customers would unanimously agree there's a problem that needs to be fixed. But others are subjective, or inconsequential.

Suppose you have a drum in a natural wood finish. Do you expect the grain to be even, smooth, with no occlusions of any kind? That would probably be considered perfect, right? But there are drummers who believe that wood, as an organic and natural thing, should include marks & variations, and that a perfect piece of wood is in fact, quite imperfect.

I own a LOT of drums, and I'd venture to say that none of them, new or old, are 'perfect'. That is, I know I could find some tiny flaw in each that the manufacturer would probably prefer isn't there. But, all of the drums sound great, and that's what's important. I don't buy drums - or anything - on the principle of, it has to be perfect or it's useless. The only rule is, does it serve its purpose for me. If so, then my hard-earned money was spent wisely. If it doesn't serve that purpose, then it's unacceptable and I seek the appropriate remedy.

I'm not saying don't complain if there's a problem. I'm saying it's important to determine what's actually a problem, and what's nit-picking 'just because'.

Bermuda

+1 Could not have been put better. I think if anyone spent enough time they would find likewise.

[Les Ismore]

Look at it this way, if we the consumers don't bitch to drum companies overlooking their problems, they're not going to do anything to correct poor QC.



A drum company who's main concern is basically sales is going to ride the crap train until the consumers start to complain.

Budget sets! Hook-up with China, more advertising! Go team!!

"What, somebody wants their money back b/c the drum has a few holes in the bearing edge"? "Uhh, another one... want's his money back"? "Well maybe we need to address this at the next company meeting in Dec."



Quality control issues are 'not even' on the radar, they're eclipsed by profits, aren't an issue until consumers complain.



The squeaky bass drum pedal gets the redesign, but only b/c the consumers complained.

[B-squared]

Originally Posted by bermuda

The question is, what constitutes a flaw? Some things are obvious and customers would unanimously agree there's a problem that needs to be fixed. But others are subjective, or inconsequential.

Suppose you have a drum in a natural wood finish. Do you expect the grain to be even, smooth, with no occlusions of any kind? That would probably be considered perfect, right? But there are drummers who believe that wood, as an organic and natural thing, should include marks & variations, and that a perfect piece of wood is in fact, quite imperfect.

I own a LOT of drums, and I'd venture to say that none of them, new or old, are 'perfect'. That is, I know I could find some tiny flaw in each that the manufacturer would probably prefer isn't there. But, all of the drums sound great, and that's what's important. I don't buy drums - or anything - on the principle of, it has to be perfect or it's useless. The only rule is, does it serve its purpose for me. If so, then my hard-earned money was spent wisely. If it doesn't serve that purpose, then it's unacceptable and I seek the appropriate remedy.

I'm not saying don't complain if there's a problem. I'm saying it's important to determine what's actually a problem, and what's nit-picking 'just because'.

Bermuda

This is a great post and as a structural engineer (PE in Colorado and Utah) and a drummer, I completely agree with this. In many industries (aircraft, pressure vessels, commercial buildings, and many more) when quality problems are encountered by inspectors, they are sent to an engineer for disposition. The disposition the engineer issues can range from reject to rework to accept as-is and it is based on a quantitative analysis and assessment.

For a bearing edge, the issues of primary importance are whether the edge is circular, planar, and whether the plane is perpendicular to the cylinder. The purpose of the edge is to provide continuous support of the edge of the head to ensure that the modes of head vibration end up looking like this:

http://www.physics.miami.edu/~nearin...nimations.html

If an edge is not planar over a finite distance (which can be modeled and probably has been modeled by an engineering graduate student working with grant money from a drum maker) the head can vibrate in modes that produce overtones. Defects less than the calculated finite distance calculated will not adversely affect sound and can be considered cosmetic.

I have designed wood structures for years, and I could elaborate about Bermuda's point about wood being a natural product with huge variations in structural properties, but suffice it to say.that not all of the QC issues people worry about here are really all that consequential.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

Quality control issues are 'not even' on the radar, they're eclipsed by profits, aren't an issue until consumers complain.

QC is absolutely on the radar for everyone calling themselves a drum company, and customer complaints let them know they still have work to do. They value the 'input', as rant-laden as it may be at times, so they don't lose ground to another company who may have gotten the message sooner, and is doing a better job reducing the problems that cause customer complaints.

Don't criticize a company for wanting to make money and stay in business. It's every company's job to grow. If a company's not doing it right, the consumers will simply allow the company to shrink and disappear. Happens all the time in every industry. In the end, we're still in charge.

Bermuda

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by bermuda

QC is absolutely on the radar for everyone calling themselves a drum company, and customer complaints let them know they still have work to do. They value the 'input', as rant-laden as it may be at times, so they don't lose ground to another company who may have gotten the message sooner, and is doing a better job reducing the problems that cause customer complaints.

Don't criticize a company for wanting to make money and stay in business. It's every company's job to grow. If a company's not doing it right, the consumers will simply allow the company to shrink and disappear. Happens all the time in every industry. In the end, we're still in charge.

Bermuda

This is all true. Outside of the setup phase (read - family finance killing), turning a profit is not only essential to the company's very viability, it's also key (given a willingness) in dictating the pace & scale of R&D. Its that R&D that feeds back into improved product, & ultimately into benefits for the customer.

Quality control is very much a part of keeping yourself afloat, & I doubt anyone's stupid enough to utterly disregard waves of customer displeasure, but it's critical for companies to understand the difference between "reactive" & "proactive" QA, or quality control.

Reactive is more of a quality procedure/customer service interface. Dress it up as you like, but it's essentially testing your customers ability to suck up a certain quality level. Once there's enough evidence of disquiet, feeding that back through the system in the form of improvements, then leaving the customer service & marketing departments to clear it up professionally. This is distinct from the company having isolated issues that slip through an intentionally tight net. The big company benefit of the reactive approach is that it's highly targeted. You're only putting effort/money into areas that need it/are noticeable to the customer. This keeps costs down = an overall good thing. The risk is that you don't react fast enough, or that there's an underlying issue that takes time to surface, thus too much mass of product already out there.

The proactive approach is based on tighter inspection criteria to prevent those issues entering the marketplace from the outset. This increases upfront cost, & may equate to placing effort/cost into areas that don't justify such attention, but that's where informed balance is required. Times are too tough to be gold plating your business, no matter how good your intentions are. All quality control is totally reliant on inspection adherence, so even the tightest regime is circumnavigated if there's issues with professionalism/attitude of the staff.

Most companies fall somewhere between these two QA approaches, with many leaning quite substantially in one direction.

Originally Posted by B-squared

I have designed wood structures for years, and I could elaborate about Bermuda's point about wood being a natural product with huge variations in structural properties, but suffice it to say.that not all of the QC issues people worry about here are really all that consequential.

Absolutely agree on recognition of the natural status of wood as a construction material. In it's unprocessed form, it's difficult to imagine a material with greater variation in form & properties. Industry best practice ply shell construction negates a lot of those variations through processing. Ply is a construction material, & as such, is far more stable than a solid wood shell of the same form. It derives it's strength from the glue bond between the layers. Essentially, preventing them from moving in relation to each other, & this ensures retention of form. The result is a construction that retains only some of the original material properties. In terms of consistency, and ability to withstand external influences such as strain/damage, temperature & moisture extremes, etc, it performs extremely well. So long as there's adequate control of key elements within the sheets used (moisture content, obvious significant flaws, etc), the need for careful selection is diminished, because the construction is very forgiving of natural variation in the material. In short, there's little excuse for a bad shell.

Non ply constructions however, are much more reliant on skilled selection of the boards used to make the shell. Troublesome natural features need to be identified & worked around. Depending on the construction, selection of cross cut or quarter sawn boards is key, & that's not always as easy as it sounds. Even book matching is required for aesthetic reasons on some constructions, & when making a kit of drums, matching sonic characteristics is key, even to the point of ensuring the whole set is taken from the same tree. In these constructions, there's clearly much greater potential for mistakes. Both the time taken, & skill necessary to get that right, far exceed the requirements of ply shell making. As the shell is far less processed, it's also less able to withstand environmental extremes, making timber selection even more critical. Enhanced skill in construction itself, is also a factor, so again, more potential for mistakes.

I just thought I'd highlight these facts, as it places the need for completely different quality assurance approaches in context. Non of the above has anything to do with the natural variations in wood that are retained within a construction, as variations with a structural or sonic impact should already have been removed. Depending on the construction, features such as pronounced uneven figuring, knots & burls, etc, all have a negative impact on the structural integrity of the shell. Complete with small holes, & sometimes even shakes (splits), these should be taken as part of the character in the piece, & in themselves have little sonic impact on the instrument. In the case of a ply shell that's then veneered with highly figured decorative forms, no structural or sonic impact whatsoever.

[Les Ismore]

If a company's not doing it right, the consumers will simply allow the company to shrink and disappear. Happens all the time in every industry.

Arguably mid 20th century, pre one world government thinking .

Now its 'Too big to fail'... the new goal has been established.

Can a drum company get that big? Probably never, but they'll try, after all that's how we've been conditioned in the fundamental principles of business- grow, grow, grow. Once you get too big for your country/market, push for a global economy, turn the whole world into one nation of consumers, weather they want it or not.

Yeah yeah, they're concerned about QC, its on their radar. No way they can look a little the other way should sales happen to be strong and nobodies complaining about product defects, or at least it would/could never be admitted to, it'd just be wiped-off as some disgruntled customers skewed implication. Profits first.

Can a company 'do it right' by raising capital thus keeping themselves afloat, while at the same time fall short maintaining consistent quality? Yes, if just staying in business/afloat is the measure of 'doing it right'.


The more people complain about the flaws in their drum sets, the quicker a company will react and please god forbid any customer service rep should have to endure a rant, I know everyone on these boards feels for them.


Please keep those complaints coming people, you paid the money and yes, the squeaky bass pedal does get the grease.


After all the saying 'The customer is always right' was never intended to be taken literally.

[mikeyhanson]

Originally Posted by section8usmc

What I am curious to know, is what people find acceptable as far as these flaws go. Obviously how much you pay is going to affect what you expect in the build of your drums. So, assuming that you are buying a mid level kit on up, what are your expectations? What issues are you willing to overlook, and what issues are completely unforgivable?

I just bought a "mid level kit on up" recently [Ludwig Centennial]. I admit I was a bit more finicky than I ever was regarding the quality I was willing to accept. Not that I was going looking for defects...I was just making sure it didn't have any I couldn't live with. Before it was mostly intermediate kits, which I knew weren't going to be perfect, so I was more forgiving with them. Everything checked out, and I'm completely satisfied with my purchase.
I have been following Zambizzi's "Ludwig Curse" thread, although the story makes me sick to my stomach. Truthfully, knowing that the Centennials were put together in Taiwan gave me a hint of reassurance that I was okay. I may draw ire for that statement from some people, but I would hate to be in Zambizzi's situation. I feel terrible for him, but I know this doesn't happen to everybody.

But if I was buying a top-level kit, while I wouldn't get out the microscope, I'd sure go over the drums to make sure they were up-to-snuff. I'd expect not to find any problems with the assembly or construction, and they should tune and sound great. I'd expect the company I bought it from to help me get it to the level it would, whether through repair or replacement in a reasonable amount of time. I would also understand that, even though I just spent $3000 on a shell pack and deserve a good one, that I'm not the only person who spent $3000 on the company today. So, while yes, I deserve good service for my money, I have to be realistic and not expect them to drop everything to give it to me.

A mid-level kit, I'd expect to sound consistently how I wanted them to sound. I would hope that I would notice the extra investment over an intermediate kit by way of better design, assembly and workmanship. It's probably the first level where I'd start being picky, but within reason. I'd still expect a reasonable amount of customer service from the company.

An intermediate kit, I would know that I bought something that has workmanship or design or parts that are inferior to the higher-level kits, so I wouldn't expect an intermediate kit to ever sound better or near as good as them. That said, it would still have to sound good, be tunable to a degree that I'd be comfortable with, and have the build quality that would be strong enough to warrant spending a bit more cash for. I'd be realistic in its limitations compared to the better kits. I'd also understand that a lot of people buy these kits. I would deal direct with the store I bought them from and hope they can help. I wouldn't expect the company to deal with me directly.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

If a company's not doing it right, the consumers will simply allow the company to shrink and disappear. Happens all the time in every industry.

Arguably mid 20th century, pre one world government thinking .

Not sure what you mean, but facts are facts: if a product/service is not up to snuff, consumers avoid it. When enough do, and if that product/service doesn't improve, the the product, service, perhaps the whole company, vanishes. Happens in one world, or 100.

After all the saying 'The customer is always right' was never intended to be taken literally.

But some people use that as their mantra, and often apply it at inappropriate times. That's kinda the point of this thread... if/when/where to draw that line. It's doubtful they're ever satisfied with anything, they live to find something wrong.

Bermuda

[tamadrm]

I think QC should be high on the list of a companys mission statement,and they do the best to accomplish this goal...within reasonable tollerances.If you have ever seen a machineists set of blue prints,there is a box,usually on the right of the print,which gives a set of tollerances which are acceptable in a precision piece,be it a simple die or a machine part.These tolerances in precision pieces are expressed in thousandths of and inch,and in plus or minus.

If corporations such as Boeing,and Lockeed Martin,who have and are building extreemly precise fighter jets and space craft kmow there MUST be a tollerance in the parts involved,because of a number of reasons,such as cost,materials,and HUMAN error.The craftsmen that make these parts will tell you the same thing.

The technology involved in precision manufacture insurers less error,and greater speed,but it's NOT perfect.The guys who built the CNC controled machine,as well as the guys who wrote the software were HUMAN,and are a flawed creation,so ergo their creation is flawed.Couple that with using organic materials,made manually by HUMANS and you will get product thay just way contain mistakes.

To expect perfection in anything is I'm sorry,just expecting too much.If you want an absolute completey flawless,built to minicule tollerance,then you have to expect to pay,MANY thousands of dollars,that's if such a thing exists.

Obvious flaws aside like dented shells/edges,obvious scratches,and out of round that effects tuning,should be addressed without question by a drum builder.But a common sense approach to tollerance and acceptability,buy the consumer, has to be applied.

There has to be some kind of sliding scale applied as a benchmark,for what we accept,as opposed to what we paid.We ourselves need to understand,that if a company is to stay in business,that there will be things that slip through the cracks.Building drums that both look and sound good at a certain price point,,and trying to maintain an accetable level of QC is more difficult than you think,so mistakes will be made.That is 100% certain.

So if you want space shuttle super human NEAR perfection results in a drum set built by humans,with no tollerance for even the slightest impertection,then you may want to reexamine your priorities.What you want is as of now,not attainable on this planet.

Steve B

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

If a company's not doing it right, the consumers will simply allow the company to shrink and disappear. Happens all the time in every industry.

Arguably mid 20th century, pre one world government thinking .

Yeah, it's arguable. The "Old World Order" as it were, is collapsing once again. The laws of economics could not be escaped, after all, and Europe is crumbling. The financial situation is much worse in the US, masked only by the convenience of owning the world's primary backing currency...for now.

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

Now its 'Too big to fail'... the new goal has been established.

Can a drum company get that big? Probably never, but they'll try,...

No, never...because drums are of relatively marginal utility, to a much smaller number of consumers. Banks have put themselves into a position (through the force of law) of being "too big to fail", so consumers can be forced to cover their losses while they retain profits. They have convinced the public the world would spin out of control, without their ownership over you and everything you'll ever own or produce. A drum company will never have this much influence over gov't policy. That's why it's consistently a rapidly-growing and innovative market, with ever lower prices (even in the face of inflation), improving quality, and greater choices.

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

...after all that's how we've been conditioned in the fundamental principles of business- grow, grow, grow. Once you get too big for your country/market, push for a global economy, turn the whole world into one nation of consumers, weather they want it or not.

This is silly. Even the poorest people in American society have access to (or even own) computers, smart phones, and even basic living conditions that royalty of the past could not have even *imagined*. You bash capitalism yet you know not of which you speak. Get hip to the concept of upward mobility. You might cry about a factory working making $200/mo. in China...yet a family of five can be supported on those wages there. There's something to cry about, my fellow westerner.

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

Yeah yeah, they're concerned about QC, its on their radar. No way they can look a little the other way should sales happen to be strong and nobodies complaining about product defects, or at least it would/could never be admitted to, it'd just be wiped-off as some disgruntled customers skewed implication. Profits first.

If a company puts out a bad product and their competition bests them at it, both in terms of quality -and- price...they won't be around for long. Unlike politics, consumers actually have power in the market and can directly affect change.

Originally Posted by Les Ismore

The more people complain about the flaws in their drum sets, the quicker a company will react and please god forbid any customer service rep should have to endure a rant, I know everyone on these boards feels for them.

Please keep those complaints coming people, you paid the money and yes, the squeaky bass pedal does get the grease.

After all the saying 'The customer is always right' was never intended to be taken literally.

I know that when I get a bad product and complain, I get results. This we can agree on. It's the responsibility of the consumer to make his/her voice heard when a company does a poor job. This is why I get on here and pick on companies who sell me something of inferior quality...it improves the product for everyone else, as well as myself. If a company doesn't respond and make right...they should be punished for it...and they will. Word-of-mouth can make or break a company...and applied to the internet, it's serious business. The customer is indeed, always right.

[Boom]

It is certainly relative. Some things can't be accepted and others depend on price.

For instance. In my opinion, the following were all perfect that I've owned:

over 100 cymbals made by Sabian and Zildjian.
Hardware made by Tama, Gibraltar and others...
Yamaha Steve Jordan snare
Used Ludwig Acrolite snare
Tama Starclassic Maple 6pc kit
Pork Pie BOB snare
Pearl Free Floating snare drum (maple and brass inserts both perfect)
Used Mapex Phosphor Bronze snare

Now, in the above list, the used drums have cosmetic flaws. But for the price (and age of the acrolite), those flaws were to be expected. So, I still consider them perfect :)

The Pork Pie BOB was inexpensive and sounded great. No noticeable flaws on the outside, and I never took the heads off to inspect the bearing edges or if the drum was round. It sounded good and cost $200 and that was good enough for me.

The Tama Starclassic Maple kit was a little more expensive so I checked the kit when I got it. Made sure there were no obvious flaws in the bearing edges and made sure the drums tuned up well. Looked for cosmetic flaws and I couldn't find any. That kit is 11 years old and has some little bits of rash that I gave it, but otherwise, I still think it's perfect.

I do think that there is a difference in expectation for a drum that costs $200 or one that costs $1200. I don't think any bearing edge nicks should be present on a mid level or higher kit. As Gruntersdad said, it speaks to attention to detail.

I also agree with KIS about some flaws and whether the drums sound good. If the drums sound good with some obvious flaws, can it be expected that the drums would sound better with the shells round and without the nicks in the bearing edges? I think so. And if some customers got drums like that (say for a professional kit) shouldn't I expect to get the same?

If you pay for a expertly made kit (say $3k), shouldn't you expect an expertly made kit? If you can find flaws in the bearing edges in seconds, I don't think that's expert work.

[bermuda]

Originally Posted by zambizzi

Word-of-mouth can make or break a company...and applied to the internet, it's serious business. The customer is indeed, always right.

Perhaps more accurately, the customer has the final word.

Right or wrong, the customers decide who stays in business.

Bermuda

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Any company that manufactures a product first draws up plans for the product. The plans don't call for mistakes. In some applications there are tolerances allowed for the product but nowhere will a mock up be made with flaws and the design team say, oh well. As I said before, if the companies quality control, allows product to be ship worthy at 95 percent perfect then they should allow me to pay them 95 percent of the asking price. We know that won't happen. Unfortunately most of the drum companies are owned by large conglomerates who's main concern is the bottom line and the profit for the shareholders. the boards of directors wouldn't know a good drum if they saw one. And if said drum builder started to cost the conglomerate too much they would just sell them off or shut them down It has happened before and it will continue. So it is left to us, the consumer, to decide how many flaws we "must" live with while we wait 7 to 9 months for their product. I say no flaws.

[zambizzi]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Perhaps more accurately, the customer has the final word.

Right or wrong, the customers decide who stays in business.

Bermuda

Yes, I like that better. Agreed! I also like, "The Consumer is King".

[Les Ismore]

Originally Posted by bermuda

Perhaps more accurately, the customer has the final word.

Right or wrong, the customers decide who stays in business.

Bermuda

Too big to fail ensures ultimately the government will decide, not the customer/people. The people didn't decide insolvent banks were allowed to stay in business with a bail-out, the market was out of the equation also... which the people control with their money. The people get to decide 'only' if a free market is allowed to exist w/o excessive government controls.

The EU was not voted on by the people of europe, it was thrown upon them, they didn't have a say... they're having their say now.

Complaining about product quality on the level of musical instrument manufactures will produce results, but only if people are conditioned to, and actually do so. Drum manufactures can get lax, we've seen it.

Keep complaining if you have a problem, manufactures will let you know if your standards are acceptable.

[section8usmc]

Some interesting points. Les, I agree about the customer thing, as well as the government thing. There are just all kinds of problems that make it difficult for both us and the manufacturer. The economy is in the tank so everyone is feeling it. We want to stretch our dollar farther, and so do they. I just found out today I can no longer get the color I wanted for the drums I went to order. 5 years ago this would likely not happened this soon, but if nobody is buying certain colors, there is no good reason to still offer it.

There are too many reasons to list, and we all could throw in half a dozen things that have contributed to what seems to be an increase in customers not being happy with their purchases in the past few years. I think what burns people more than anything is the customer service, especially if there is a defect, even blatant an obvious ones. Parts availability has been an issue, and just plain being able to talk to someone that knows what the hell they are talking about, and really wants to help you fix any problem you might have.

We live in a day where everyone is trying to do too much, all of the time. There used to be three people for three jobs. Now there is one person doing all three. Henry Ford got it right a way long time ago. One person doing the same job skillfully. When its done, it goes to the next station, the workers stay there. Repetition for consistency.