Can a mediocre drummer be a good teacher?

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by con struct

Is Roger Federer's coach a mediocre player? Almost certainly not.

Agree with you Jay (I think), but like I stated futher in my post, compared to Roger's playing - yes, he's mediocre, for you and me - no, he's not mediocre, does this make sense?

That's why I said "define mediocre" in relation to the teacher vs student relationship, "mediocre" being a very relative and subjective appreciation.

[mandrew]

Let me throw this out. . . what constitutes a good basic level of competency? Let me suggest that at the very least, a teacher should be a card carrying member of an organization such as the NARD, or similar. It is not unreasonable to have a prospective teacher demonstrate a minimal skill level before a jury of his/her peers. What else would you all recommend?

[mikeyhanson]

I think so. I think if you're one of those people that can inspire, engage, connect and communicate with someone [especially beginning kids], and you WANT to teach, then do it. Chances are some 10 year-old isn't going to walk in on the first lesson and want you to teach him that thing JoJo did at 1:42 in that video he saw. You never know, however....

I think of it like baseball pitchers. Young phenoms, all-stars, specialists, etc. etc.. Pitchers are often taught by coaches who used to be pitchers, and quite often they weren't all that great themselves. But they know how to teach it. Did they have to be able to do what they taught? No. They're old farts who can't do it, but they understand it can be done. They also work with the player to make them better. Refine them. Develop them.

Can a mediocre drummer be a good teacher? I believe they absolutely can. A teacher does so much more than just play the instrument they teach. Plus, teachers do homework as well. It's not uncommon for a teacher to brush up or even learn something themselves before teaching it.

If you feel like you have something to offer in the way of teaching, that's a compelling reason enough as it is.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums

Agree with you Jay (I think), but like I stated futher in my post, compared to Roger's playing - yes, he's mediocre, for you and me - no, he's not mediocre, does this make sense?

That's why I said "define mediocre" in relation to the teacher vs student relationship, "mediocre" being a very relative and subjective appreciation.

I don't need to define mediocre. I have an online dictionary that does it for me.

From Merriam-Webster:

Mediocre: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

So I say again, I highly doubt that anyone in the professional tennis world would accuse Roger what's-his-name's tennis coach of being moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

Mediocre is not relative. Mediocrity is something that you settle for, if you're that kind of person. Outside of that, it is to be avoided in all instances whenever possible.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by con struct

i don't need to define mediocre. I have an online dictionary that does it for me. Dictionaries are great, that's a tip, kids.

From Merriam-Webster:

Mediocre: of moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

So I say again, I highly doubt that anyone in the professional tennis world would accuse Roger what's-his-name's tennis coach of being moderate or low quality, value, ability, or performance.

Mediocre is not relative. Mediocrity is something that you settle for, if you're that kind of person. Outside of that, it is to be avoided in all instances whenever possible.

I totally agree with the dictionary definition, but I was under the impression that a "mediocre" drummer wasn't defined as per the dictionary's definiton here in this discussion, but by your reply you're stating that a mediocre drummer shouldn't be teaching and be avoided as a teacher, right?

Of course any coaches in the pro tennis world are not "mediocre" tennismen, but I genuilely believe that Roger what's-his-name's coach wouldn't stand a chance in a match against Roger, it was a "figurative" comparison so to speak, to says that a drum teacher doesn't need to be a virtuoso to teach and coach another drummer, even if the "student" is already an incredibly accomplished drummer, therefore "mediocre" within this discussion is subjective to a degree, at least that's how I interpret it, but I might be wrong.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums

I totally agree with the dictionary definition, but I was under the impression that a "mediocre" drummer wasn't defined as per the dictionary's definiton here in this discussion, but by your reply you're stating that a mediocre drummer shouldn't be teaching and be avoided as a teacher, right?

Of course any coaches in the pro tennis world are not "mediocre" tennismen, but I genuilely believe that Roger what's-his-name's coach wouldn't stand a chance in a match against Roger, it was a "figurative" comparison so to speak, to says that a drum teacher doesn't need to be a virtuoso to teach and coach another drummer, even if the "student" is already an incredibly accomplished drummer, therefore "mediocre" within this discussion is subjective to a degree, at least that's how I interpret it, but I might be wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, mediocre means mediocre. But I'm an old guy; perhaps definitions of words don't matter so much anymore, in which case communication as it's been practiced for centuries is a dead duck.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by con struct

As far as I'm concerned, mediocre means mediocre. But I'm an old guy; perhaps definitions of words don't matter so much anymore, in which case communication as it's been practiced for centuries is a dead duck.

Think you just have to accept that people don't agonise over their tread titles and there may be loose language. Yes, back in the 1940s when you started to bloom into middle age ... :) people were certainly less slapdash with their use of language.

Not saying you need to dumb down but I find it saves aggravation to accept that people communicate less formally and precisely now. Still, I understand pet peeves. Maybe "mediocre" is yours? Mine is two real words - "a lot" - being spelled an one made up word "alot". The second I see it I subconsciously drop the person down an echelon lol

I think Henri raises an interesting point - Roger Federer is obviously a vastly better player than his coaches ever were. So experienced players who know their stuff must have something useful to offer to the young guns who could blow them off the court or stage. If nothing else, a credible second opinion.

[Midnite Zephyr]

Originally Posted by mandrew

Let me throw this out. . . what constitutes a good basic level of competency? Let me suggest that at the very least, a teacher should be a card carrying member of an organization such as the NARD, or similar. It is not unreasonable to have a prospective teacher demonstrate a minimal skill level before a jury of his/her peers. What else would you all recommend?

This was kinda what I was getting at in my previous thread about "registered drummers". Though registered may not be the correct word.

[JBoom]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Mine is two real words - "a lot" - being spelled an one made up word "alot". The second I see it I subconsciously drop the person down an echelon lol

Mine is when people spell "as" with an "n." :D

Just kiddin' ya. :)

[audiotech]

Originally Posted by JBoom

Mine is when people spell "as" with an "n." :D

Just kiddin' ya. :)

Sometimes it just comes back and bites ya in the you know what, lol.

Dennis

[jeffwj]

Originally Posted by mandrew

Let me throw this out. . . what constitutes a good basic level of competency? Let me suggest that at the very least, a teacher should be a card carrying member of an organization such as the NARD, or similar. It is not unreasonable to have a prospective teacher demonstrate a minimal skill level before a jury of his/her peers. What else would you all recommend?

Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr

This was kinda what I was getting at in my previous thread about "registered drummers". Though registered may not be the correct word.

Yes, but to be a member of NARD, you only need to be able to play the first 13 rudiments. While that is a good start, it does not determine a person's qualifications to teach.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the NARD and am glad to see it back in existence, but it is an association for preservation and continuation of rudimental drumming. It does not necessarily mean that a member is qualified to teach. But, in addition to other qualifications, having a NARD membership is something that can add to a teacher's resume.

Jeff

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

I think Henri raises an interesting point - Roger Federer is obviously a vastly better player than his coaches ever were.

I think there's too much Federer and sports involved in the discussion now.
Can I raise the point that we're talking music and drumming, which probably
isn't the same as (coaching) sports?

But if we still want to know it - some interesting points:

-Roger Federer often has had NO coach in the recent years of his career.
-His current coach achieved world no 12 in 1985, and he won 3 titles in single and 14 ones
in double. So he's most certainly NOT what anybody considers mediocre!!

Now again my point: Sport coaches have to analyze other players/teams, find the right
tactics, and so on. All this has NOTHING to do with teaching drums (despite the fact
that we as drummers analyze the playing of great drummers, of course), because you
don't play tournaments or matches with the drums, you make music in bands.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Now again my point: Sport coaches have to analyze other players/teams, find the right tactics, and so on. All this has NOTHING to do with teaching drums (despite the fact that we as drummers analyze the playing of great drummers, of course), because you don't play tournaments or matches with the drums, you make music in bands.

Sorry Matthias, I disagree entirely, the role of a teacher, in music or in any other field, is indeed to analyze the students, find the right tactics, and so on, it's even very applicable to the drums, being a physical instrument where mouvements of our limbs are a crucial element, a good teacher will not only teach the subject, but also analyze one's playing, provide currative feedback to the student, find a tactic which will work for that particular student, everyone is different and assimile what's being taught in a different manner, it's the role of the teacher to find the way to get the best out of his/her students, individually, what's working for one might not be valid for another.

Yes we play music, but some aspect of drumming on a stage with big spotlight in a rock context for exemple, can be physically compared to a tournament or a match in sports, in terms of stamina, durabitly and pacing, your body is certainely enduring a lot during these 2 hours, so again, the teacher's advice, approach and solutions are valid, especially for those "student" drummers who are struggling in this departement.

Teaching and coaching is a context matter, it's what you teach/coach that's important, Roger federer will probably be a bad drum teacher and Tommy Igoe probably a bad tennis coach, context is everything, but the use of analogies can be helpful sometimes :)

[Green_C]

The key to being a good teacher is the ability to analyze what the student needs to correct and the expirience and knowledge on how to convey the correction in a manner the student can employ. This requires the teacher have an expert understanding in the material being taught and also have communication skills and a "bag of tricks" to assist the student.

When I was looking for a drum instructor for my son I searched all the local possibilities. The first guy on my list had a very impressive resume': Berkley, touring and recording with well known artists. I wasn't sure if he would accept 10 year old beginners. Nothing lost in calling I thought. Turns out he is the best sort of instructor: Very skilled in the making of a many different genres of music and very personable with a huge "bag of tricks". The result is my son is learning complicated concepts more quickly than I ever thought possible and as a parent I feel like I'm getting more than my money's worth for every lesson.

So to answer the question directly how do we define mediocre? If I, as an amature musician, saw him playing at a local venue and said to myself, "This guy really needs a click track". Then, no, I don't want to part with my hard earned cash for his lessons. If he can't hear and correct his own faults how can I expect him to hear and correct his students faults.

[Muckster]

An academic adviser at a local college has this sign on his desk: "those who can do, those who can't teach, those who can't teach counsel."

[Muckster]

And BTW speaking of teachers, is there any video out there showing Freddy Gruber actually playing in a band?

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Originally Posted by Mad About Drums

Sorry Matthias, I disagree entirely, the role of a teacher, in music or in any other field, is indeed to analyze the students, find the right tactics, and so on, it's even very applicable to the drums, being a physical instrument where mouvements of our limbs are a crucial element, a good teacher will not only teach the subject, but also analyze one's playing, provide currative feedback to the student, find a tactic which will work for that particular student, everyone is different and assimile what's being taught in a different manner, it's the role of the teacher to find the way to get the best out of his/her students, individually, what's working for one might not be valid for another.

Yes we play music, but some aspect of drumming on a stage with big spotlight in a rock context for exemple, can be physically compared to a tournament or a match in sports, in terms of stamina, durabitly and pacing, your body is certainely enduring a lot during these 2 hours, so again, the teacher's advice, approach and solutions are valid, especially for those "student" drummers who are struggling in this departement.

Teaching and coaching is a context matter, it's what you teach/coach that's important, Roger federer will probably be a bad drum teacher and Tommy Igoe probably a bad tennis coach, context is everything, but the use of analogies can be helpful sometimes :)

Could a mediocre soccer player be a teacher or coach. You don't have to be in the premier league to eventuall become a coach. There are many athletes who retire that don't wish to teach because they don't have the communication skills. I think you need to rethink this


Wrong wrong wrong. Coaches are teachers. Math teachers are teachers. They all have the ability to communicate an idea or skill to someone trying to learn that skill. No one is saying that drumming is a sport unless you get into WFD. But we are comparing teaching a sport skill to a music skill. I have done both and as a coach consider myself to be a teacher of skills.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD

Could a mediocre soccer player be a teacher or coach. You don't have to be in the premier league to eventuall become a coach. There are many athletes who retire that don't wish to teach because they don't have the communication skills. I think you need to rethink this


Wrong wrong wrong. Coaches are teachers. Math teachers are teachers. They all have the ability to communicate an idea or skill to someone trying to learn that skill. No one is saying that drumming is a sport unless you get into WFD. But we are comparing teaching a sport skill to a music skill. I have done both and as a coach consider myself to be a teacher of skills.

You have to have what it takes to be a teacher, whatever it is you teach, not everyone has that gift, being extremely good in a given field is not enough, you need more than this.

Maybe the sport analogy has gone too far, my point was to highlight that you don't need to be a virtuso at the kit to be able to teach, someone who's actually not as good as the one they actually teaching, in terms of playing, can still teach and improve their skills, hence the Federer analogy.

My other point was to hilight the absolute need of analizing the students, their progress, their difficulties, etc. You can't just show a paradiddle, say "here it is, do it" to the student and call it a day. It has nothing to do with sports, it has something to do with being a good teacher, in our case, drums, drumming and music.

Music is not a sport :) ...my comment was related to the physical aspect of drumming, which to an extend, has similarites with an athlete's training, from a physical point of view only.

[groove1]

Absolutely a mediocre drummer MIGHT be a good (even great) teacher.
Conversely, great musicians aren't necessarily good (or great) teachers.

[GRUNTERSDAD]

Thats why students who wish to gain teaching credentials in the US, like me, go to an accredited university, take courses in what they want to teach, take education classes, where one learns methods of teaching, and then do what we call student teaching. Actual classroom teaching for 13 weeks to hone our teaching skills. During that process is where we are evaluated by our instructors to determine if we have what it takes to teach. All of this has to do with communicating our skills to the learner. A mediocre drummer may inherently possess some of these communication skills and have enough playing skills to be able to teach to a certain level. In my opinion a mediocre person in any discipline could be a good teacher. However if you wish to teach to an advanced level certain training, as outlined above, would be necessary. I think we are agreeing but coming at it in different directions.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by groove1

Absolutely a mediocre drummer MIGHT be a good (even great) teacher.
Conversely, great musicians aren't necessarily good (or great) teachers.

imagine Buddy Rich giving a drum lesson

my goodness

[mikeyhanson]

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

imagine Buddy Rich giving a drum lesson

my goodness

...or getting one from him.

Talk about finding the brown note....

[Swiss Matthias]

Phil Maturano contributed to the thread, just read on facebook :) :

"Some people should teach...like those with vast experience and knowledge.
Some should not. Like those who have never even done a gig before. But are good at photoshop and making flyers. I don't get it. You want to pass on bunk information on drumming and have someone pay for it right? Please don't do this. Concentrate on getting a gig! My rant for the day."

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

"Some people should teach...like those with vast experience and knowledge."

I like that but it begs exactly the question of this thread. What if a teacher has a great deal of experience and knowledge, but is kind of nerdy and not a confident personality and subsequently not all that good a player?

[mikel]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Phil Maturano contributed to the thread, just read on facebook :) :

"Some people should teach...like those with vast experience and knowledge.
Some should not. Like those who have never even done a gig before. But are good at photoshop and making flyers. I don't get it. You want to pass on bunk information on drumming and have someone pay for it right? Please don't do this. Concentrate on getting a gig! My rant for the day."

Well....not quite. What you need in a teacher is someone who is good at putting things across. Good at pointing out little faults, and how to rectify them.

You could have the worlds most accomplished drummer and they could easily be rubbish at teaching, because they find the basics so easy they have no idea, or indeed the patience, to show others how to perform the technique.

I am a fairly mediocre drummer but I can play the rudiments slowly, and that is how we all learn to play, slowly at first, for muscle memory, then faster as we improve, or not. Up to the speed we feel we need.

[bigd]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

I like that but it begs exactly the question of this thread. What if a teacher has a great deal of experience and knowledge, but is kind of nerdy and not a confident personality and subsequently not all that good a player?

Who says nerds aren't confident? You've never meet educated musicians coming from conservatories. These guys are super nerdy and monster musicians with no lack of confidence what so ever. They're on broadway, in professional orchestras and rockin stages worldwide. They're in every facet of the music industry. Where do you think the likes of Gadd, Weckl, Aranoff came from?

[Anon La Ply]

bigd. unconfident nerdy people certainly exist. Some have talents - like teaching and infectious love and knowledge of music - that are less affected by their shaky confidence than performance.

They always say public speaking is amongst people's greatest fears. Performance art also exposes us in a similar way and isn't for the faint hearted.

PS. I've met a number of musicians with conservatory education, and played some fill ins for them. My current band's guitarist studied classical at the Con.

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by mikel

You could have the worlds most accomplished drummer and they could easily be rubbish at teaching, because they find the basics so easy they have no idea, or indeed the patience,

I don't know any world class drummer who doesn't constantly stress the importance
of the basics.

Originally Posted by mikel

to show others how to perform the technique.

I am a fairly mediocre drummer but I can play the rudiments slowly, and that is how we all learn to play, slowly at first, for muscle memory, then faster as we improve, or not. Up to the speed we feel we need.

I have a feeling that most people forgot that teaching drums means so much more
than techniques, figures and patterns!

[mikel]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

I don't know any world class drummer who doesn't constantly stress the importance
of the basics.


I have a feeling that most people forgot that teaching drums means so much more
than techniques, figures and patterns!

That is what I was getting at Swiss. It is the ability to pass on what you know to others and the ability to correct mistakes and posture/technique flaws that make a good teacher.

Stressing the importance of the basics is not the same as being able to teach them and make them more interesting to all students, not just the gifted/highly motivated.

I am not saying that most drum teachers are not highly gifted and accomplished musicians. I am saying it is not a pre requisite. The ability to teach will not, by default, follow the ability to play. The best players do not, by default, always make the best teachers.

A really good teacher/motivator can help a student become much better than the teacher. That has to be the ultimate goal.

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

imagine Buddy Rich giving a drum lesson

my goodness

There are actually a few examples. He, like another virtuoso -- Jeff Berlin, is a mass of contradictions, confusion and ambiguity. Some people can be talented but not be very good at explaining the process of what makes them good.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

I have a feeling that most people forgot that teaching drums means so much more than techniques, figures and patterns!

For sure.

A while ago I had some lessons from a DW member who doesn't post much these days. Personality-wise we were like two cats in a sack at times but a big thing I got from him was his absolute love for, and dedication to, the music.

Being around a great player who's crazy for music is inspiring. You get a glimpse of music through their eyes and ears.

[makinao]

Originally Posted by opentune

Well there's a saying in pro sports, academia, art and many other fields..... "those who can't 'do' teach"

That expression is as insulting and offensive as saying drummers are not musicians.

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

For sure.

A while ago I had some lessons from a DW member who doesn't post much these days. Personality-wise we were like two cats in a sack at times but a big thing I got from him was his absolute love for, and dedication to, the music.

Being around a great player who's crazy for music is inspiring. You get a glimpse of music through their eyes and ears.

I guess I know who you're talking about.

Anyway, we sure all agree that being a great musician isnt' the only requirement a teacher
has to offer. Which is completely natural, because being a teacher can be a passion and
a gift on its own, and those two qualities (musician, teacher) don't automatically have to go
together at all. Thus it's kind of unnecessary actually to even discuss this :).

[toddbishop]

Originally Posted by opentune

Well there's a saying in pro sports, academia, art and many other fields..... "those who can't 'do' teach"

It's more a saying of lay people about those fields. Denying other people's abilities seems to be a self esteem-builder for certain people who can't do anything themselves.

[BillBachman]

To answer the question, I'd say very rarely. If you yourself can't do it, can you really explain to somebody else how to do it?

They may be a good coach though, as in "work this out, now work this out." And they may have a decent sense of mechanics, but more than likely not in my experience. There are a lot of teachers that don't need to be teaching that I've come across in my travels. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's the call I'm making.