Un-doing the caveman approach and turning over a new leaf w/ Moeller

[G-Con]

Hey all,

I was fortunate enough to take a lesson with Gil Sharone yesterday and we spent a good portion of the lesson really breaking down the Moeller technique.

I'm a self-taught player of 16 years, and have just felt stuck in a stagnant rut the past couple years. I'm a great rock player, and can swing, have a good pocket, confident with a click, all that good stuff. I'm just looking to be more efficient getting around the kit and playing in general. Also I've been looking to shake some of the caveman tendencies and get into more jazz drumming.

Have any of you guys learned the Moeller technique later in your drumming lives? How has it worked out for you?

[Anthony Amodeo]

it's great that you are opening your mind and getting some guidance

remember that "Moeller" is not the be all end all and you will be just fine


...and even if you never intend on gigging as a jazz player....the coordination you will gain by using jazz exercises and comping patterns will improve your playing and make you a more aware player

keep moving forward my man

[larryace]

Doesn't Moeller kind of happen naturally? The whipping motion is kind of hard not to do.

[JimmyTheMonkey]

Originally Posted by larryace

Doesn't Moeller kind of happen naturally? The whipping motion is kind of hard not to do.

Yes and no. After playing for a year, I went ahead and tried to learn the Moller method. I found I had naturally been doing it on my floor toms, but none of the other drums. It took a lot of effort to learn how to do it on the hi-hat and the ride.

To answer the OP's question, it took me a good week of practicing to learn the Moller method. I probably practiced it for 15-30 minutes each day. I was not comfortable doing it all of the time, but I don't think it is best used all of the time.

If it helps, I found the Green Day song Burnout to be a great learning tool when learning the Moller (its used in 8th notes on the hi-hat and ride at 180bpm for most of the song).

[kettles]

Originally Posted by larryace

Doesn't Moeller kind of happen naturally? The whipping motion is kind of hard not to do.

Happened for me too, I can't recall ever actually being taught it.

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Originally Posted by larryace

Doesn't Moeller kind of happen naturally? The whipping motion is kind of hard not to do.

I'd certainly describe it as a natural action.....in that many seem to overthink it when first trying to develop a Moeller stroke. I read posts here all the time where guys who are trying to familiarise themselves with the concept can often over reach by thinking that it is some mysterious new concept that takes years to develop and can only be achieved by completely changing the way the body naturally moves.

But that said, I don't think that necessarily equates to it happening naturally in every case either. I can see why guys who have spent years gripping too tight and relying on too much wrist with their stroke may struggle with the relaxed hands and fluent action that the free stroke/Moeller etc promotes initially. Same with a beginner learning to control the stick by utilising the delicate balance between stick control and natural rebound.

[Arky]

I started learning Moeller pretty much when I started drumming. I browsed the internet for drum techniques, bought a few DVDs and that's it. It would have been very hard if not impossible to not stumble across the Moeller technique.

As with several techniques I'm learning (or have learned to a working degree) - once they're happening they feel natural but it took me a while learning them. It would have taken me many years for them to evolve naturally.

I'm always scratching my head when I learn that some drummers have been playing for many years and _then_ start getting more interested in some techniques. Shouldn't it be normal to get acquainted with some techniques right from the start?

[Pocket-full-of-gold]

Originally Posted by Arky

Shouldn't it be normal to get acquainted with some techniques right from the start?

In a perfect world, yeah. But there's a ton of self taught players out there that were figuring it all out pre internet. Much of what is out there today just wasn't as easily accessible back in the day. There was no youtube vids to refer to and many people learnt by what they were hearing as opposed to what they could see. There's a million different techniques that one can explore, but unless you actually had someone to tell you what they are and show you how to do them, then a lot of the subtleties can slide by unnoticed.

I was actually taught by my old man as a kid, yet was never taught such names as "Moeller" or "push/pull" etc. I was shown the concept of the whipping motion and taught how to properly control the stick using wrists and fingers. I was taught how to use the natural rebound and always encouraged to try different things out....but I honestly didn't know half of them actually had specific names until I joined the forum.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by Arky

I'm always scratching my head when I learn that some drummers have been playing for many years and _then_ start getting more interested in some techniques. Shouldn't it be normal to get acquainted with some techniques right from the start?

Arky, I can save you all that head scratching and the consequent dandruff risk :) I gather my situation is pretty common ...

I started playing in the mid 70s and have played on an off since at various degrees of "seriousness" (this is relative - we're not talking serious art music here) and I have none of the techniques down. My rudiments are rudimentary and my stroke should be struck off. I just play. I know a lot of songs. Nothing fabulous but I drum okay.

So how did this happen? Why such an illogical path? I started out liking all the heavy rock bands. None of the hard rock fans I knew seemed studious - we were banging out garage rock n roll. No one talked about lessons.

After 3 months of playing along with records I got in a band, then another, and another - the usual upgrades you have when you're young.

Where would I come across the idea of techniques? Didn't you just repeat stuff until it feels good? I had no access to internet, DVDs or VCRs. No DW forum. I didn't know many drummers.

After about 5 years I investigated lessons because I was getting keen on jazz-influenced music. The teacher basically told me to tap a rubber pad at like zero bpm, and if I wanted to correct my technique I'd have to quit the little alt rock band I was in at the time that I absolutely loved! All to go tap tap tap on a rubber pad at a funereal pace. F off :)

I had one book, from which I learnt a few things but I was never that keen on the science of it ... just the people and the music. I did had a music theory book and taught myself to read and a few Latin terms / concepts etc so I could better communicate with other players.

Why don't I go back and retread the path? Clean up the slop?

I'm getting older, rubber pads bore me and life's too short. Not everyone can be Jumpin Jack Flash and I try to make the most of what little technique I have. No one's going to call me for big sessions or gigs, and nowadays I'd rather not, but people seem to think I'm a musical drummer and I am capable of making my ears happy.

I guess all that comes down to era and the popular scenes at the time, circumstance, the people around you and temperament. My drumming journey has been inefficient, scattered, undisciplined, inconsistent, occasionally bizarre ... and incredibly unbelievably utterly interesting and fun!

Now you know :)

// end helping Arky scratch his head //

[dmacc]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Arky, I can save you all that head scratching and the consequent dandruff risk :) I gather my situation is pretty common ...

I started playing in the mid 70s and have played on an off since at various degrees of "seriousness" (this is relative - we're not talking serious art music here) and I have none of the techniques down. My rudiments are rudimentary and my stroke should be struck off. I just play. I know a lot of songs. Nothing fabulous but I drum okay.

So how did this happen? Why such an illogical path? I started out liking all the heavy rock bands. None of the hard rock fans I knew seemed studious - we were banging out garage rock n roll. No one talked about lessons.

After 3 months of playing along with records I got in a band, then another, and another - the usual upgrades you have when you're young.

Where would I come across the idea of techniques? Didn't you just repeat stuff until it feels good? I had no access to internet, DVDs or VCRs. No DW forum. I didn't know many drummers.

After about 5 years I investigated lessons because I was getting keen on jazz-influenced music. The teacher basically told me to tap a rubber pad at like zero bpm, and if I wanted to correct my technique I'd have to quit the little alt rock band I was in at the time that I absolutely loved! All to go tap tap tap on a rubber pad at a funereal pace. F off :)

I had one book, from which I learnt a few things but I was never that keen on the science of it ... just the people and the music. I did had a music theory book and taught myself to read and a few Latin terms / concepts etc so I could better communicate with other players.

Why don't I go back and retread the path? Clean up the slop?

I'm getting older, rubber pads bore me and life's too short. Not everyone can be Jumpin Jack Flash and I try to make the most of what little technique I have. No one's going to call me for big sessions or gigs, and nowadays I'd rather not, but people seem to think I'm a musical drummer and I am capable of making my ears happy.

I guess all that comes down to era and the popular scenes at the time, circumstance, the people around you and temperament. My drumming journey has been inefficient, scattered, undisciplined, inconsistent, occasionally bizarre ... and incredibly unbelievably utterly interesting and fun!

Now you know :)

// end helping Arky scratch his head //

You're posts are what makes DW a great place to hang.

Sounds like you had a very, very misguided teacher which is unfortunate because evolution of learning and integrating good technique not only does not happen over night, but requires an applicable setting of which to learn how to apply it in which you had with the rock band you were in at the time.

There's so much I agree with in this statement... I can sooooo relate to it.

"I'm getting older, rubber pads bore me and life's too short. Not everyone can be Jumpin Jack Flash and I try to make the most of what little technique I have. No one's going to call me for big sessions or gigs, and nowadays I'd rather not, but people seem to think I'm a musical drummer and I am capable of making my ears happy. "

[Anon La Ply]

And ta for the kind comment, David. I've had a lousy day and that was a good pick me up!

Originally Posted by dmacc

Sounds like you had a very, very misguided teacher which is unfortunate because evolution of learning and integrating good technique not only does not happen over night, but requires an applicable setting of which to learn how to apply it in which you had with the rock band you were in at the time.

To be fair he was a very good bop player (although in hindsight his playing didn't have the charm of some of his peers - IMO) and I'm sure he would have been really helpful to intermediate students with more even development.

No doubt he suspected it wasn't going to work between us after the second lesson but maybe wanted to keep an open mind ... and as a hard bop / free jazzer he could probably do with the cash :)

[Liebe zeit]

I'd say French grip is the thing to get rid of the caveman syndrome; just let the stick sit in your hand and tickle its underside with your fingers. Just major on French for a while, and you'll soon lighten up.

[samthebeat]

Originally Posted by Arky

I started learning Moeller pretty much when I started drumming. I browsed the internet for drum techniques, bought a few DVDs and that's it. It would have been very hard if not impossible to not stumble across the Moeller technique.

As with several techniques I'm learning (or have learned to a working degree) - once they're happening they feel natural but it took me a while learning them. It would have taken me many years for them to evolve naturally.

I'm always scratching my head when I learn that some drummers have been playing for many years and _then_ start getting more interested in some techniques. Shouldn't it be normal to get acquainted with some techniques right from the start?

Many of us have been playing before the advent of the information age, drummerworld you tube etc. Where information was hard to come by for some and easy for others. For me it was natural it was only when I got the internet I found out what it was I was doing, it had a name etc, That was a good five years into playing, not everyone is tuned into drum forums yet, the word is still spreading and people are still resisting.

[JimmyTheMonkey]

For what it is worth, I found this video helpful to reinforce the technique that my teacher and I worked on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2-zg1us-Zk