In the studio recording an original rock with odd times

[DrumEatDrum]

My friend I used to be in a band with a million years ago and I decided we'd start a new studio only band. Being a bit older, this is just for fun. And since it's just for fun, we wanted to do something with zero commercial appeal: Prog!

When this song was presented to me, I noticed the bars of 7 and the bars of 5, and I though, a, cool, I can play something really screwy to it. But after 3 notes, it became quite clear, that, no, this song needs to be fairly straight. So I revamped my approach and went for making the odd times seems smooth. A little more subtle. I thought, well, maybe a touch of Bruford here? But after a few run thrus of the arrangement, it morphed more into Dave Ghrol meets Bruford for a picnic in the park.

Sonically, I was experimenting with coated single ply heads. And while they gave my DW a very nice warm sound in the room, thru the mics they sounded low and dead. So I tuned them up, still low and dead, and then a bit more, until they ended up in this jazz tuning vibe. Which really isn't my thing, but it sort of worked for this song, so I went with (I've since changed heads and mic placement for other material).

There are no vocals, since neither of us can sing, but we left room for vocals.
If anyone know of a singer who likes this style in Southern California area, and would like to take a stab at a recording project, let me know.

EDIT link removed for technical difficulties :-)
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[Drum Mum]

I enjoyed this, and to me, your choice of playing a more straight-ahead groove was a good one. It fit the song. I also liked your snare sound-personal preference, I guess. As you said, the drum sound worked for this tune.

[Retrovertigo]

not trying to be a dick but the timing was pretty rough. coming in and out of fills had a very jerky feel. and a lot of them sounded like you weren't too comfortable with them.

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by Drum Mum

I enjoyed this, and to me, your choice of playing a more straight-ahead groove was a good one. It fit the song. I also liked your snare sound-personal preference, I guess. As you said, the drum sound worked for this tune.

Thanks Mum!

Originally Posted by Retrovertigo

not trying to be a dick but the timing was pretty rough. coming in and out of fills had a very jerky feel. and a lot of them sounded like you weren't too comfortable with them.

Heh..I won't disagree. This is why we post. When you lack a producer, sometimes bad things happen. So public feedback steps in in the producers place. I did notice yesterday there are a few spot where the bass and guitar go out from each there and I'm trying to split the difference, which makes me seem out too. I never noticed it before I uploaded it.

Most of the fills are in the bars of 5/4, which alternate with the groove bars in 4/4. So where the ear expects the fills to end is not where they do.

And I left it Keith Moon style at the end, all improve. Some idea clearly didn't work as well as others. But my "pro" days are long behind me. I work 50 hours a week behind a desk, raise a family, and rarely have time to practice any more. So if it sound like amatuer hour, so be it.

But thanks for clicking the link and being honest. I think most people read the word "prog" and fled in terror! LOL.

[Anon La Ply]

Great sound and vibe, and a strong consistent backbeat, DED. As Retro said, there's timing issues ... nice to see you joining me at Amateur Hour haha. Amateurs rock!

Seriously, you sounded comfortable in the 4/4 sections but had difficulty with the 5/4. Easily fixed, just practice that 5/4 over and over and record it, then practice the odd time fills one by one ... you can do some of the internalisation work on your legs at your desk ... I did that at times pre-retirement :)

[trepaning]

I was going to be all critical because it seemed like a good thread to do it in but reading your situation of work and family obligations changed my opinion 180 degees and I just gotta say, keep rockin' dude. Song reminds me of Deep Purple's "Perfect Strangers".

[DrumEatDrum]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Great sound and vibe, and a strong consistent backbeat, DED. As Retro said, there's timing issues ... nice to see you joining me at Amateur Hour haha. Amateurs rock!

Seriously, you sounded comfortable in the 4/4 sections but had difficulty with the 5/4. Easily fixed, just practice that 5/4 over and over and record it, then practice the odd time fills one by one ... you can do some of the internalisation work on your legs at your desk ... I did that at times pre-retirement :)

Haha, you wouldn't say that to Keith Moon, would you?

I'm trying the self deprecating humor, but I can't seem to do it like Andy does.

But all these comment were making me a bit paranoid. Am I THAT rusty in my old age?

So I had to go back, and put the drum part up on the grid, with the click, and with everything else turned off (er, wait, aren't we supposed to hate it when a producer does that? :-P )

I was right about the pre-chorus, I'm (relatively) in with the click, but the bass-guitar relationship goes out.

So I went back over the 5/4 section looking at the grid. OK, one fill ends a hair early, one fill ends a hair late and one fill is totally 100% flubbed (oops).

OK, not great, but it's not life ending.

So I put the bass up against the click and the bass drum on the grid. Ah, ok, problems.

The bass and the click aren't lined up.

So my "one" and his "one" are totally off from each other when we come out of the 5/4 bar. (insert sad trombone sound).

But when you're too close to your art, you some times fail to see what's in front of you.
So thanks for raking me over the coals, at least now I know what went wrong, and it can be worked on for the next version!

Originally Posted by trepaning

I was going to be all critical because it seemed like a good thread to do it in but reading your situation of work and family obligations changed my opinion 180 degees and I just gotta say, keep rockin' dude. Song reminds me of Deep Purple's "Perfect Strangers".

Yes, there is a resemblance. I actually re-wrote some the keyboard lines over that issue. But they at least it's a resemblance to a good song! LOL

But thanks for listening!

[Retrovertigo]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

I work 50 hours a week behind a desk, raise a family, and rarely have time to practice any more. So if it sound like amatuer hour, so be it.

i can dig it brother! there are only so many hours in a day.

on another note, i was wondering if there were issues more with how the bass was locking in with the drums and less about how your timing was. a little push and pull from the bass and the guitar can make everything seem way out. sorry to cause undue stress!

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

I'm trying the self deprecating humor, but I can't seem to do it like Andy does.

Decades of low personal expectation should sort that out ;)

Ok, I'm going to be straight up & honest here. I'm watching a good drummer struggling in an environment that's impossible to shine in. Your backbeat, your bass drum placement, your crash accents, all scream class & road miles to me, but this performance is nothing short of a timing disaster. That's a shame, but I'm convinced it's born of circumstances.

The click is the issue, or rather, the guitarist & bassist's lack of adherence to it. You're in constant correction mode. At no stage are you feeling that music. It's utterly devoid of groove, because everything else is devoid of groove. Did you record your drums over the parts already laid down? It sounds like it to me. If that's the case, you never stood a chance.

I bet if you were all together in the same room, your drumming would rock big time. It's recognising how good it could be, how good you naturally are, that takes me close to anger listening to this video track.

Sorry man, that's exactly what I'd be saying if we were having a beer together. I hope one day, we can do exactly that :)

[trepaning]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

Yes, there is a resemblance. I actually re-wrote some the keyboard lines over that issue. But they at least it's a resemblance to a good song! LOL
But thanks for listening!

Don't rewrite something because it sounds similar to something that already exists. Randy Bachman of BTO and The Guess Who will be the first to tell you how all their hit songs were slight rewrites of songs or reversing chord progressions of songs that were popular at the time by other bands. Familiarity makes people comfortable listening, so don't be afraid to sound like some other band, especially one with the pedigree of producing songs like "Perfect Strangers". I'd recommend putting "Perfect Strangers" on loop and playing to it a few times, it would tighten up what you have going on in your song pretty fast. Keep in mind, though, that prog and math rock appeals pretty much only to other musicians and, for the most part, they'd just stand around listening and thinking "I can do that better". General public people like to groove, move, dance, and strut, and you've got the backbeat to make that happen, so maybe consider losing the math and sticking to the rock. After working 50 hours a week at a desk, who really wants to do accounting with their music anyway? Personally, I hated math in school.

[MikeM]

Love the snare sound. Is that your DW maple? The toms sound amazing too and I'm not over the moon over DW sounds normally. Maybe because you cranked 'em up above the typical DW tuning? Very lively and a pleasure to listen to.

I think I agree with the gist of Andy's assessment. Pretty much turn off the click and make the band follow you, or turn the click off in everyone else's cans but yours because of the rhythm battle that appears to be happening.

I recently unearthed a DVD that someone passed off to me from a band I was in several years ago that I'd never seen. I was excited to watch it at first but was quickly and thoroughly disappointed upon first viewing. Despondent was more like it. I remember always thinking about the very different nature of playing styles between the two guitar players - one being from a metal background and rhythmically stiff (chug chug chug... what? you want 16ths? chug chug chug... all with down picking!); the other guitar player had nowhere near the technical wizardry and wasn't very metal, but his rhythmic playing was much more relaxed, fluid, and he could hit his strings on the way down AND on the way up! (you'd think that wouldn't be a big deal, but for some it is, apparently).

Man, I struggled mightily to bridge the gap between those two and this video very much highlighted that I was failing in a big way. Exactly that splitting the difference thing you mentioned. A hellish place for sure!

I know you're a good player. Rust could be a factor? Hmmm. I suppose only you would know that, but it sounds like basic skill set is still in good shape.

But that's all technical stuff and utterly fixable. I really like the composition itself and most of the drumming decisions within it quite a bit. I didn't hear the Purple thing until pointed out, but whatever, like you said, that's a cool song, too!

Cheers

[opentune]

Really, I thought the entire tune would be way better in 4/4, no parts needed in 5/4. Obviously simpler too, and the others more locked in with you.

[DrumEatDrum]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Andy, you're spot on, and yes, I'd like that beer now!

Mike, yes, that's a DW 6x14 10-ply maple snare. I'm not how you don't like the thing, I've never been without it!

I've taken down the link for now so I can go back and repair/replace the bass line, and then give it another go.

I went to be last night telling myself a public fogging is good for me, but no point in letting sit in public when I know it's in disarray. We'll never find a singer that way!

I am not really sure how I missed things ending up being out of sync.
I think between trying to be a my lighting guy, my own video guy, my own engineer, etc, etc, I just stopped pay attention to the obvious. heh.

The down side to having your own studio: there is never anyone around to point out to you when something bleeps up.

It could have been worse, I could have uploaded the entire album! LOL.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

Haha, you wouldn't say that to Keith Moon, would you?

Of course Moonie was an amateur at heart, just that his limbs often said otherwise ...

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

But all these comment were making me a bit paranoid. Am I THAT rusty in my old age?

Yep, you are, old bean. I recognise it in myself - very closely. The timing issues are exactly what happens to me when I don't keep my hand in with daily playing. I have recordings from the 90s at a time when I only played once a week with a band for years with zero practice in between and I was making the same kind of stiff timing errors that you made in that clip.

If I don't play daily the first thing to go is timing because I'm not a natural, groovy person ... I'm just a heady, slightly unco, nerdy girl :)

Originally Posted by keep it simple

Decades of low personal expectation should sort that out ;)

lol - ain't that the truth :)

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum

Andy, you're spot on, and yes, I'd like that beer now!

Ian, you're an exemplary example of how positively offered negative critique should be received. Many could & should take a lesson from your responses.

From the get go, I picked up your struggle. You were wedged between a rock & a hard place whilst pissing into the wind. I've heard such great stuff from you, that I knew there were external forces at play. I'm looking forward to hearing more stuff after you've whipped those plank pluckers into shape :)

I had a tempo fluctuation nightmare earlier this year, when playing "Comfortably Numb". In some ways, for similar reasons. I found myself influenced by timing drift from others. Once I'd lost that ""command" of the groove, I was screwed. I got through the song, but it was very disappointing to mess up something I'd normally nail with ease. I posted it here too ;) Your situation was even more difficult due to player disconnection. At least I was on the same bloody stage as the offenders, so no excuses for me.