How Important Is It...?

To be able to play at top speed? By that, I mean top speed for YOU?

I play several instruments and it seems to be the case across the board -- after playing a while, it becomes a part of you -- you can do it anytime -- to a degree. It's playing the real chop-sy stuff that requires you practice and stay on top of your game. Interestingly enough, the guys who are best at it DO IT TOO MUCH!!!

Case in point : On bass, I can slap pretty well, but don't do it too often because it's kinda dated. And those chops go quickly unless you do it a lot. And who are the guys who do it best? The guys who slap over EVERYTHING. Guitar playing is 90% rhythm playing. Pianists who can improvise substitution chords over substite to the point where you can't tell what it is. And DRUMMERS...they're the WORST! lol

Drums are the one instrument where practice consist of purely technique. By that I mean, a drummer doesn't play modes, scales, notes, harmonies etc. And who are the guys with the best chops? The guys who tend to overplay. And a LOT of drummers overplay. I've found drummers and pianists are the main culprits in this area -- probably because pianists often play by themselves and drummers don't get to show off unless they're soloing -- and how often do you get to play a solo?

Even some of the top guys do it. Hell, last time I saw Dave Weckel it seemed like he played every lick he knew every 4 measures. After 5 minutes I was bored and left the hall.

It's amazing how much diligence it takes to keep your chops up and yet HOLD BACK using them until just the right time.

What's your take on it? And who do you think is a good example of someone with monstrous technique who also uses taste and restraint? I mean, besides Steve Gadd. LOL

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

who do you think is a good example of someone with monstrous technique who also uses taste and restraint?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFGkvF_rK-A

'Nuff said :)

[SticksEasy]

The first experience I had with a band was playing very old rock and classic country (it was my mother's band), This got me good excercise in control, as I had to play quietly and slowly. Then a bit later down the road, I joined a Metal band a bunch of my highschool friends put together, and my previous band experience made playing with control much easier.

I currently play for a Pop Punk band, and our tempo is usually really moving, and if it weren't for having good stick control, a lot of times I'd lose total control, and suffer some intense injuries.

Playing at high speeds is important - but you should develope a very sturdy foundation at slow speeds, and the good technique will carry over at high speed.

I studied Okinawan Karate for four years when I was a teen ager. I only made it to the first degree of black belt before I quit, but my instructors taught me one valuable thing that I've always applied to drumming - All the speed and power in the world doesn't mean anything IF YOU CAN'T HIT YOUR TARGET. Speed is always the LAST thing you develope.

I hope this helps.

[Numberless]

I would also like to add http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmKjygC2w8

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB0nUBRBgJg

Originally Posted by keep it simple

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFGkvF_rK-A

'Nuff said :)

That's great but not what I would call very restrained! : )

[NerfLad]

Originally Posted by Numberless

I would also like to add http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCmKjygC2w8

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB0nUBRBgJg

That Brian Blade Clip.... just wow.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

What's your take on it?

This is my version of restrained playing, a long time ago though, and I don't have monstrous technique either :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_zdCYoA9cs

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

And who do you think is a good example of someone with monstrous technique who also uses taste and restraint? I mean, besides Steve Gadd. LOL

This, Black Dub with Brian Blade... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydc1D...hannel&list=UL

[Numberless]

That Brian Blade Clip.... just wow.

I can safely say that is my favorite video of any drummer.

[Anon La Ply]

Any drummer for Steely Dan or Cinematic Orchestra - skill and taste.

I saw Albare ITD tonight, with Antonio Sanchez. An absolute monster but he often overplayed IMO. Like Dave Weckl it seemed like he could hardly bear to leave a bar unadorned. Does every bar of music need ornamentation? Even some Edwardian architecture has some flat, functional surfaces that creates the space that highlights the detailed sections. I find it frustrating because he was otherwise so masterful, but I guess he has his reasons.

Nelson, I was just talking about the points you raised with an old guitarist friend tonight. We agreed that there's a type of drummer that sounds pretty generic. Like they learned the rudiments so they use them all the time.

I've only delved lightly into rudiments but I figure that they're supposed to get you hands in shape, foster control and provide tools at your disposal if needed.

Still, one person's "tasteful" is a another person's "dull". We play what makes us happy.

[keep it simple]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

That's great but not what I would call very restrained! : )

Yes, I know that specific clip isn't restrained (although there's plenty of restrained groove within it), but I answered a direct question, "who do you think is a good example of someone with monstrous technique who also uses taste and restraint?"

In the spirit of your thread, I'll find an example more fitting the vibe :)

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Any drummer for Steely Dan or Cinematic Orchestra - skill and taste.

Cinematic Orchestra... WOW, that groove is absolutely superb, the more I hear of this band, the more I'm becoming a fan.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by keep it simple

Yes, I know that specific clip isn't restrained (although there's plenty of restrained groove within it), but I answered a direct question, "who do you think is a good example of someone with monstrous technique who also uses taste and restraint?"

Same drummer, a bit more restraint... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFStxMzjEXI

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Any drummer for Steely Dan or Cinematic Orchestra - skill and taste.

I saw Albare ITD tonight, with Antonio Sanchez. An absolute monster but he often overplayed IMO. Like Dave Weckl it seemed like he could hardly bear to leave a bar unadorned. Does every bar of music need ornamentation? Even some Edwardian architecture has some flat, functional surfaces that creates the space that highlights the detailed sections. I find it frustrating because he was otherwise so masterful, but I guess he has his reasons.

Nelson, I was just talking about the points you raised with an old guitarist friend tonight. We agreed that there's a type of drummer that sounds pretty generic. Like they learned the rudiments so they use them all the time.

I've only delved lightly into rudiments but I figure that they're supposed to get you hands in shape, foster control and provide tools at your disposal if needed.

Still, one person's "tasteful" is a another person's "dull". We play what makes us happy.

I brought up that point in the piece I wrote for Modern Drummer. Tasteful and solid is fine but in some cases those type of players are just a polite bore.

I want a guy to light a fire under my ass! (But some guys burn the house down in the process).

[toddbishop]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

And who do you think is a good example of someone with monstrous technique who also uses taste and restraint? I mean, besides Steve Gadd. LOL

Just about every last working drummer you can name does that on a daily basis-- it's not a rare thing. You'd be much harder pressed to name a professional who doesn't routinely play with taste and restraint.

There are as many examples of this as there are players, but you could dig up Weckl's playing with Madonna or Diana Ross, Dennis Chambers with Parliament, Jack Dejohnette with Bill Evans, Vinnie Colaiuta on 90% of the recording dates he ever played, or my favorite example, Billy Cobham with Deodato.

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

I brought up that point in the piece I wrote for Modern Drummer. Tasteful and solid is fine but in some cases those type of players are just a polite bore.

I want a guy to light a fire under my ass! (But some guys burn the house down in the process).

Is the piece online, Nelson? I've done both sides of the fence. I used to be a rocker and my main aim was to really burn. Now I'm playing loungy music that requires me to be "boring" - at least by my standards in 70s/80s.

I think a lot of it has to do with energy levels. When you're young you have tons of verve and you look for that in other players. Unless you're a livewire, when you get older you become less active and lively and, for me, I'm enjoying just laying back with a "boring" groove - no fuss, no pressure, just doing my bit. That way I can sit back and hopefully make a pleasing impact in the passages where I ramp it up.

These days really intense younger music like metal and hardstyle techno feels like an assault to my poor old frail sensibilities :) Really. It's like a slap in the face.

So I'd say I'm almost as unworried by the opinions of those who find my approach dull today as I was unworried about people who thought my playing was too in your face in the old days. Different time, different target audience.

Most musicians mellow out over time. The only thing I'd worry about is if you'd never looked for serious heat in your playing when young. That's like never being idealistic in your teens. You've got to have the flame, even if it's more like a match than a furnace.

IMO

Todd, always loved that Deodato number. When I got the album I was surprised that BIlly and Stanley were the rhythm section. Both were their usual quality selves but way less upfront than usual, and Stanley achieved the unthinkable - an effective bass solo in a popular song.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

To be able to play at top speed? By that, I mean top speed for YOU?

I guess it's good to be able to play fast, but it was a rare occurrence in my career when I had to really blast at fast tempos, certainly not doing studio work.

Can you imagine, say, a Popeye's chicken commercial at a break-neck tempo? Ha.

Now I did used to work on my singles, to get them as fast and as clean as possible, so they would sound almost like a buzz roll. I got pretty damn close. And I'd mess about with punk tempos, Dead Kennedys tempos, super fast and articulated. That's fun.

I never got my speed up, I mean really really up, as a jazz drummer, mainly because I just couldn't feel music at that tempo. In my opinion tempos ridiculously fast are nothing more than a display of chops, and I find that boring. I always had to sort of fake it when it got that fast.

But the most important part of drumming is to be there, in the pocket, solid and sure and providing a good sturdy surface that the other players can walk on, so to speak. That's what's always been the most important aspect of drumming to me, down in the pocket and grooving steady.

[8Mile]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

It's playing the real chop-sy stuff that requires you practice and stay on top of your game. Interestingly enough, the guys who are best at it DO IT TOO MUCH!!!

I think this is a falsehood. Most of the drummers who play solid, groove-oriented stuff have an abundance of technique they keep in their back pocket.

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

an abundance of technique they keep in their back pocket.

the key to it all ......is it not?

I've always felt that if you have a high ceiling your knuckles will never scrape it no matter if someone offers you a pogo stick or a trampoline

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Is the piece online, Nelson? I've done both sides of the fence. I used to be a rocker and my main aim was to really burn. Now I'm playing loungy music that requires me to be "boring" - at least by my standards in 70s/80s.

I think a lot of it has to do with energy levels. When you're young you have tons of verve and you look for that in other players. Unless you're a livewire, when you get older you become less active and lively and, for me, I'm enjoying just laying back with a "boring" groove - no fuss, no pressure, just doing my bit. That way I can sit back and hopefully make a pleasing impact in the passages where I ramp it up.

These days really intense younger music like metal and hardstyle techno feels like an assault to my poor old frail sensibilities :) Really. It's like a slap in the face.

So I'd say I'm almost as unworried by the opinions of those who find my approach dull today as I was unworried about people who thought my playing was too in your face in the old days. Different time, different target audience.



Most musicians mellow out over time. The only thing I'd worry about is if you'd never looked for serious heat in your playing when young. That's like never being idealistic in your teens. You've got to have the flame, even if it's more like a match than a furnace.

IMO

Todd, always loved that Deodato number. When I got the album I was surprised that BIlly and Stanley were the rhythm section. Both were their usual quality selves but way less upfront than usual, and Stanley achieved the unthinkable - an effective bass solo in a popular song.

...............

Agree 100%

Originally Posted by 8Mile

I think this is a falsehood. Most of the drummers who play solid, groove-oriented stuff have an abundance of technique they keep in their back pocket.

Sure, a lot the top guys do. I just saw a buddy of mine do a gig with Anton Fig and I was surprised to see him display some chops. But a lot of great groovers aren't the most burning guys in regard to having really intense chops. Purdie couldn't play a solo like Buddy and Buddy couldn't groove like Purdie. Some guys don't need it. Nigel Ollson OWNS that slow groove that Elton uses but I doubt he could play burning fours . He never has to!

If you're working in a set situation you make it work for the music and make it your own. But for 95% of the guys who have to find work by jumping from one thing to the next, it can be a challenge.

[con struct]

Originally Posted by 8Mile

Most of the drummers who play solid, groove-oriented stuff have an abundance of technique they keep in their back pocket.

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Sure, a lot the top guys do. I just saw a buddy of mine do a gig with Anton Fig and I was surprised to see him display some chops.

Isn't Anton Fig a drummer?

[Swiss Matthias]

No Vinnie Colaiuta in this thread? Monstrous technique (obviously) but listen to him
when he plays with guys like Sting!

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Drums are the one instrument where practice consist of purely technique.

I disagree. Isn't practicing scales on the piano pure technical practice too?
If drummers only practice "pure technique", how could they manage to even manage to
get through a song, let alone play jazz musically, dynamically and with interaction. That
definitely doesnt' come from practicing technique.

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

I disagree. Isn't practicing scales on the piano pure technical practice too?
If drummers only practice "pure technique", how could they manage to even manage to
get through a song, let alone play jazz musically, dynamically and with interaction. That
definitely doesnt' come from practicing technique.

Not really. Those elements come more from listening. You don't "practice" knowing where the parts of the song are or knowing when to play softer or louder. You can employ them when playing though. But drumming doesn't require understanding how notes fit together. It's a different kind of technique. Like I said -- the better drummers understand music and play musically, but development of "chops" is pretty much physical exercise.

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

No Vinnie Colaiuta in this thread? Monstrous technique (obviously) but listen to him
when he plays with guys like Sting!

Vinnie may be the BEST example!

........

Originally Posted by con struct

Isn't Anton Fig a drummer?

...............


Yes.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

To be able to play at top speed? By that, I mean top speed for YOU?

Originally Posted by con struct

I guess it's good to be able to play fast, but it was a rare occurrence in my career when I had to really blast at fast tempos

Same for me J, most of the music I've been required to play didn't need the "top speed" of my abilities, it's always been a topic I would practice to be in control, whenever the occurences arise.

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

So I'd say I'm almost as unworried by the opinions of those who find my approach dull today as I was unworried about people who thought my playing was too in your face in the old days. Different time, different target audience.

I agree, I generally don't care that much for the youngsters' music, and they probably do not like or care about most of the 70's music. It's the eternal generations conflict, my Dad didn't like The Beatles or Deep Purple and I didn't care about classical music.

My daughter is 18 now, and she's passionate about music (as an audiophile), we very often talk about music and share the music we both like, and I would say to her "Oh, you like this? you should listen to so and so, you'll probably like it", she's a huge fan of The Beatles, Led Zep, Purple, Van Halen, Alice Cooper, Michael Jackson, Stevie Wonder, etc... I also discovered bands which I really like through her, at least we have a common ground musically, much more than I did with my own parents.

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Most musicians mellow out over time. The only thing I'd worry about is if you'd never looked for serious heat in your playing when young. That's like never being idealistic in your teens. You've got to have the flame...

Yes you've got to have the flame, whatever it is a destroying fire burning everyting on it's path, or a nice and cosy fire in the livingroom. The flame is pretty much what keeps us doing what we do, as long as there's some bed of hot ashes, all it needs is a little feed :)

[PQleyR]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

These days really intense younger music like metal and hardstyle techno feels like an assault to my poor old frail sensibilities :) Really. It's like a slap in the face.

You know what's weird? When I was 14, that was how I felt. Now I'm nearly 25, I can listen to black metal or Dragonforce or intense drum & bass or techno and appreciate it for its idiomatic nuances rather than experiencing sensory overload (even if I don't necessarily like it, I can still decode it).
To take an example, the first time I bought a drum & bass CD I found it hard to listen all the way through because there was too much going on. After a while I got used to what I was supposed to pay attention to, and was able to tune out the little details to some degree, or at least hear them as they were intended, in the background. Drum & bass sounded incredibly fast to me initially, until I got used to the fact that you sort of hear it in half-time (you wouldn't nod your head on every beat, unlike metal at equivalent tempo, say). The same is true with double-time parts in the sort of european-style power metal that I play. You don't nod your head at 360bpm, even if that's what the kick and snare would seem to be implying...

[Swiss Matthias]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Not really. Those elements come more from listening. You don't "practice" knowing where the parts of the song are or knowing when to play softer or louder. You can employ them when playing though. But drumming doesn't require understanding how notes fit together. It's a different kind of technique. Like I said -- the better drummers understand music and play musically, but development of "chops" is pretty much physical exercise.

We have different opinions. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Vinnie may be the BEST example!

Please have a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xjq-QUOiM

[Anon La Ply]

Originally Posted by PQleyR

You know what's weird? When I was 14, that was how I felt. Now I'm nearly 25, I can listen to black metal or Dragonforce or intense drum & bass or techno and appreciate it for its idiomatic nuances rather than experiencing sensory overload (even if I don't necessarily like it, I can still decode it).

I guess we have developmental stages. I liked pop and was intimidated by heavy music until early teens. Then I got into hard rock and was right into it until mid/late teens when I started diversifying, but I remained keen on the loud stuff until mid 30s, when I had depression hassles.

Then I went back to pop - a reprise to my childhood taste - until I got back into gigging in my mid/late 40s. Now I'm back into muso's music and currently in a jazz phase. The way I feel now, musically I don't want to "shout" or be shouted at any more. I'd rather caress and be caressed :)

Not saying my example is typical but it seems that when I've not been strong - childhood, hard times and ageing - then I've wanted to be more soothed and less excited by music than when at my physical peak.

[Mad About Drums]

Originally Posted by PQleyR

You know what's weird? When I was 14, that was how I felt. Now I'm nearly 25, I can listen to black metal or Dragonforce or intense drum & bass or techno and appreciate it for its idiomatic nuances rather than experiencing sensory overload (even if I don't necessarily like it, I can still decode it).

Not all music we're listening to is music that we'll like, in the primary sense, generally, we don't deny or dislike the music we were listening as teenagers, even if with age, our tastes differs and evolve in different directions, and as Anon pointed out, we're influenced by the events of our lives and by those we play with, I would say it's a natural evolution more than weirdness.

All styles included, there's 3 types of music for me...

1. The music I listen and appreciate because it touches me, sometimes influence and inspire me, this is the music I can relate to, I can feel it, it's what you'll find in my favourite on my PC and most of my CD's and vynil's collections.

2. The music I listen and appreciate because of the musicianships, muso's music if you prefer, I can still decode it (sometimes not, lol), I certainely can appreciate the showmanship, the drum hero hitting us with monstrous chops, skills, velocity and the likes, but in terms of feel and emotions, it leaves me a bit cold, no matter who's playing it.

3. The music I can play, which is totally (partially?) different than what I described above.

Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias

Please have a listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xjq-QUOiM

Wonderful stuff, I'm a fan of both Sting and Vinnie :)

[toddbishop]

Originally Posted by Anon La Ply

Todd, always loved that Deodato number. When I got the album I was surprised that BIlly and Stanley were the rhythm section. Both were their usual quality selves but way less upfront than usual, and Stanley achieved the unthinkable - an effective bass solo in a popular song.

They used to play that when you'd go skating in grade school in the disco era. It's incredibly corny, but a great piece of arranging, and the players sound amazing on it. I think it's one of my favorite Cobham performances, honestly.

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

I brought up that point in the piece I wrote for Modern Drummer. Tasteful and solid is fine but in some cases those type of players are just a polite bore.

Man, drummers are walking a fine line with you. I'd like to hear about who you think is good some time.

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Those elements come more from listening. You don't "practice" knowing where the parts of the song are or knowing when to play softer or louder. You can employ them when playing though. But drumming doesn't require understanding how notes fit together. It's a different kind of technique. Like I said -- the better drummers understand music and play musically, but development of "chops" is pretty much physical exercise.

You should listen to a saxophonist practice sometime. If that relentless, mechanical running of modes and ii-V-I's have anything to do with listening, I'll, ah, eat my hat. I'll have to buy a hat, and then eat it. If you look at any page of technical exercises written for the drums, you'll see a time signature at the beginning, and the notes will have a rhythm attached to them. Often there will be dynamic markings- at least internal dynamics in the form of accents. That's your musical context. True purely physical activity-- like running five miles or doing pushups-- has no such context attached to them.

Originally Posted by toddbishop

They used to play that when you'd go skating in grade school in the disco era. It's incredibly corny, but a great piece of arranging, and the players sound amazing on it. I think it's one of my favorite Cobham performances, honestly.



Man, drummers are walking a fine line with you. I'd like to hear about who you think is good some time.

..................................

That'd be a long list. But realize, as a bassist I work with a lot of drummers. And let me tell you -- there are a lot of bad drummers. Not listening, not setting up phases and bad time top the list of grievances.

........................................



You should listen to a saxophonist practice sometime. If that relentless, mechanical running of modes and ii-V-I's have anything to do with listening, I'll, ah, eat my hat. I'll have to buy a hat, and then eat it. If you look at any page of technical exercises written for the drums, you'll see a time signature at the beginning, and the notes will have a rhythm attached to them. Often there will be dynamic markings- at least internal dynamics in the form of accents. That's your musical context. True purely physical activity-- like running five miles or doing pushups-- has no such context attached to them.


..................

Of course, every instrument has technical stuff that doesn't sound like music. But they have notes, so there's a difference. Don;t take it as an insult. It's like saying a trumpet player doesn't voice chords! Or a piano doesn't strum chords. it's just the nature of the instrument.

.....................................

[toddbishop]

Of course, every instrument has technical stuff that doesn't sound like music. But they have notes, so there's a difference. Don;t take it as an insult. It's like saying a trumpet player doesn't voice chords! Or a piano doesn't strum chords. it's just the nature of the instrument.

I'm not taking it as an insult, I'm disagreeing with what you said, which seemed to be that absence of tonal information == purely physical practice. And that's incorrect.

[con struct]

I want to read the piece you wrote for Modern Drummer, Nelson. Can you post it for us, or provide a link to it?

Originally Posted by toddbishop

I'm not taking it as an insult, I'm disagreeing with what you said, which seemed to be that absence of tonal information == purely physical practice. And that's incorrect.

Well, the absence of western tonality in regard to modes, scales, relative pitch, melody and harmony.

All musicians in general tend to see music via their instrument and it's a trap. I know guitar players who just like bands with great guitarists. There aren't many trumpet players into AC/DC. Of course there are exceptions but people do tend to get stuck within their instrument.

Originally Posted by con struct

I want to read the piece you wrote for Modern Drummer, Nelson. Can you post it for us, or provide a link to it?

I've been trying to track it down myself. It's the issue with Keith Moon on the cover. About 7-8 years ago!

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

I've been trying to track it down myself. It's the issue with Keith Moon on the cover. About 7-8 years ago!

I have the issue

Im going to get it right now

Ill scan it and send it to you

[Anthony Amodeo]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

I've been trying to track it down myself. It's the issue with Keith Moon on the cover. About 7-8 years ago!

I have your article in my hand

PM sent

Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum

I have your article in my hand

PM sent

That's a very cool gesture. I'll post it up for anyone who wants to read it. Thanks man.