Free floating vs lugged drums

Dear Andy,

That has been very informative. Please allow me to add some builder non scientific infos to that.

I've tried very thin shell, and this is what I discover. With very thin shell, what I was hearing was not tonal wood sound more than a fragile structure ready to vibrate to anything that hit it. What also happen is that when hitting the snare hard, I was hearing the tom and bass drum humming. To my interpretation, it was a lack of isolation structure between the shells due to their soft resistence to vibration. Also, when the shell were lathed very thin (3/16" and under) when hitting the bare shell, no tone was produce, just an uneven vibration flow, tone is very important to sound and just for fun I've comparde 2 shells 12" x 8", one was 3/8" and the other 1/8" thick , I found that the 3/8" was far more nervous than the 1/8". If you take a violon, or an acoustic guitar, no matter how thin it is, it has a tone and a safe structure. That should also be applied to drum to what I understand now.

Ford drum using isolation mount has lot of sense and is not related totally to shell tickness.The most important would be to avoid the cymbal stand to vibrate with the tom installed on them and make everything vibrate togheter.

Now to the reel question: free floating vs lugged drums. There's a difference for sure, but even with free floating all the metal will vibrate in par with the shell and heads because all these parts are linked and connected togheter somehow, thinner the shell is, stronger the vibration will be.

I may be wrong here as I mention, it's no scientific fact just observation made by a passion builder. so much factors can be importants, heads, drums stick, room, music type, the player...
All very good & valid points gained from years of building superb quality drums. I love your drums, & I know Dean thinks very highly of you. My post was in reply to Larry's specific question, & I'm referring more to toms than snare drums. I notice the biggest difference on toms.

On the subject of very thin shells, yes, I agree, on their own, they have little tone to them when struck. However, when mounted into a more substantial bearing edge structure, they add a great deal to the tone. I can't explain why, but they do. In general however, I do agree that an ultra thin shell is very restricting in terms of delivering a wide tuning range & projection, that's why the new project I'm currently working on with Dean, uses both steam bent & stave shells around 6mm (1/4" thick) for toms, & around 9mm (3/8" thick) for floor toms 16" and bigger + bass drums.
 
It's so nice to have Andy around here to do the heavy lifting on these questions. :) So I can just add a couple of thoughts.

Free floating systems are not all alike, and the resonance to be gained/lost/sustained depends on construction. For example, I keep a Pearl Free Floater around because it's fun to play with different shells, and I change the depth by using different tension rods with it. But a lot of people describe the character of that drum as "boxy," and the reason they say that is that the system is built around an aluminum chassis. Now, if you're you're using the drum at a 3.5" depth, the reality is that about 40% of the total "shell" is made of aluminum (the frame being about 1.5" high). So what you've got is a hybrid shell, and aluminum can dry out just about anything, soundwise. That's why the wood selection for a shallow Pearl (or Gretsch) free floater almost doesn't make much difference, because there's not much resonance in the first place. Most often, I keep a brass shell in mine in a 5.5" depth configuration, and the aluminum dries out the ring of the brass a good bit. Drummers who like this drum usually are those who want to minimize ring in their snares -- not a practice I recommend, because it sounds pretty good from where the drummer sits but fairly horrible ten feet away.

And, as Andy has pointed out, a lot depends on the nature of the shell. I've seen people put 1" thick shells into Pearl FF frames, which is pretty much a guarantee of a dead-sounding snare.

Remember that the vibration of the head as it's being struck is transmitted to the shell through the bearing edges (not the lugs) -- and then realize that on several free floater designs, there is a frame that sits in contact with one or more bearing edges. So that frame has a lot to do in determining whether the sound of the shell is a greater or smaller factor in the overall sound of the drum. Pearl's design has a heavy aluminum ledge pressed tight in full contact with the bottom edge of the insert shell. Not a particularly resonant arrangement.
 
I could be wrong but I think the biggest reason a floating shell has not taken off yet is because it does not look like the drums we know.
I completely agree with this. We drummers have an inbuilt vision of beauty that's as ingrained as our interpretation of beauty in the opposite sex. Certain features are expected, & only slight variations on the theme are acceptable.

That said, my reply was towards Larry's very specific questions, hence my very specific answer.
 
It's so nice to have Andy around here to do the heavy lifting on these questions. :) So I can just add a couple of thoughts.

Free floating systems are not all alike, and the resonance to be gained/lost/sustained depends on construction. For example, I keep a Pearl Free Floater around because it's fun to play with different shells, and I change the depth by using different tension rods with it. But a lot of people describe the character of that drum as "boxy," and the reason they say that is that the system is built around an aluminum chassis. Now, if you're you're using the drum at a 3.5" depth, the reality is that about 40% of the total "shell" is made of aluminum (the frame being about 1.5" high). So what you've got is a hybrid shell, and aluminum can dry out just about anything, soundwise. That's why the wood selection for a shallow Pearl (or Gretsch) free floater almost doesn't make much difference, because there's not much resonance in the first place. Most often, I keep a brass shell in mine in a 5.5" depth configuration, and the aluminum dries out the ring of the brass a good bit. Drummers who like this drum usually are those who want to minimize ring in their snares -- not a practice I recommend, because it sounds pretty good from where the drummer sits but fairly horrible ten feet away.

And, as Andy has pointed out, a lot depends on the nature of the shell. I've seen people put 1" thick shells into Pearl FF frames, which is pretty much a guarantee of a dead-sounding snare.

Remember that the vibration of the head as it's being struck is transmitted to the shell through the bearing edges (not the lugs) -- and then realize that on several free floater designs, there is a frame that sits in contact with one or more bearing edges. So that frame has a lot to do in determining whether the sound of the shell is a greater or smaller factor in the overall sound of the drum. Pearl's design has a heavy aluminum ledge pressed tight in full contact with the bottom edge of the insert shell. Not a particularly resonant arrangement.
Haha, we posted at the same time. Yes, totally agree. I do believe that the benefits of a free floating design are best realised on toms. Frankly, I've never really recognised much difference with snare drums. There is a difference, but it's minute in the big scheme of things. Toms are a different matter, especially for those who want long sustain & maximum shell tone.

I'll let you into a little secret :) I'm travelling to spend a couple of days with Dean, hopefully next week. We're testing two identical 12" walnut stave shells side by side. One is a standard lugged Guru Drumworks construction, the other is the prototype for our new production series drums. This test will prove or dispel many theories. I can't let you guys in on the design yet, as it still may be the subject of a patent, but it's pretty radical, yet unbelievably simple. It combines the advantages of free floating systems, yet it uses (very special) lugs & looks pretty much like a standard drum. It's also very light weight. Initial results are promising, & much has been taken from the lessons learn't on the prototype kit, but next week will be crunch time. I'm crossing my fingers :) :) :)
 
Haha, we posted at the same time. Yes, totally agree. I do believe that the benefits of a free floating design are best realised on toms. Frankly, I've never really recognised much difference with snare drums. There is a difference, but it's minute in the big scheme of things. Toms are a different matter, especially for those who want long sustain & maximum shell tone.

I'll let you into a little secret :) I'm travelling to spend a couple of days with Dean, hopefully next week. We're testing two identical 12" walnut stave shells side by side. One is a standard lugged Guru Drumworks construction, the other is the prototype for our new production series drums. This test will prove or dispel many theories. I can't let you guys in on the design yet, as it still may be the subject of a patent, but it's pretty radical, yet unbelievably simple. It combines the advantages of free floating systems, yet it uses (very special) lugs & looks pretty much like a standard drum. It's also very light weight. Initial results are promising, & much has been taken from the lessons learn't on the prototype kit, but next week will be crunch time. I'm crossing my fingers :) :) :)
Please tell me you lost the bird cage. :) I might want to buy one of these kits in the near future, not just talk about them like some guys on here. MFB. :p
 
Not with my other's job. Or mine when I finish qualifying AND there would be wedding costs.
I am just messing with you. You are much younger than me. You have lots of time. Don't be like me and piss all your money away on stuff. All in good time. .
 
I am just messing with you. You are much younger than me. You have lots of time. Don't be like me and piss all your money away on stuff. All in good time. .

I have time but I piss it away watching cricket. Jacques Kallis has been fantastic today and I'm not even South African.
 
You learn something new every day...

Ah, the snobbery gave it away?

In other news, AB DeVilliers was fantastic. His acceleration after his century was terrifying! Shame smith called them in, really...
 
Maybe we need to reconsider the original lugless drums . . . rope drums! Great sound and resonance, and no lugs, just a suspended tensioning system not resting on the shell. . . Hmmmmm. . .
 
Maybe we need to reconsider the original lugless drums . . . rope drums! Great sound and resonance, and no lugs, just a suspended tensioning system not resting on the shell. . . Hmmmmm. . .
Indeed, my inspiration for the prototype kit (just don't tell Sticks I posted these, they'll spoil his dinner). ;0
 

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Those drums continue to be the baddest set of drums within our solar system. Someday Andy I will see them. I really want to take a head off and see what's under the hood. I still don't understand what you did with them.
 
Oh yes Andy, most definitely. I'm still processing the info. You really are an expert with this stuff. Free floaters are best with thin shells, assuming a lot of stuff. My ideas about the lugs and the free floaters were backwards it seems. Very interesting stuff. Thank you for that 2 hour post. Your work has gone a long way to furthering knowledge of drum building. I don't know of anyone whose ideas are more cutting edge than yours and Deans. I am champing at the bit in anticipation of your next round of experiments. I so want to see something with this new concept on the market so I can buy it.
 
Let me take this.

They are Canadian buttstrap killers. He trains them to zero in on Canadian buttstraps and poop on their heads. If one of these buttstraps has Mapexes, the birds are trained to peck holes in them for XLR jacks. He feeds them shredded up Saturn drums. Arctic White ones are their FAVORITE flavor.

:)
 
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