You have to “make it” outside your own country first

Thanks. I do enjoy a good discussion on the music business, though I mainly stick to a few specific blogs & forums for debating purposes. I did write out a 1500 word reponse to the "are you sure about this" part, but then I remembered a quote that Jer brought up in another thread;

There are two rules for success: 1) Never tell everything you know.

So I'll just say that in general, I've met lazy A&R guys that don't really know what's going on anymore. And these are guys who have spotted many number one artists in the UK in the past, right up until the early 2000's. Infact I've been to seminars where they bring the gold & platinum discs with them. It's cringe-worthy. Obviously a record company is built on a hierarchy of various job descriptions, some of those people can't do their jobs properly anymore. The people who are good at their jobs are increasingly starting their own companies with their own roster. Young people/entrepreneurs increasingly do their own thing, often based around the net, they don't join record companies, or even apply. Why join a sinking ship, it's not your job to save it after all - and you certainly won't be properly compensated.

Slightly offtopic, but this is interesting & recent if you haven't seen already; http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/14/warner-emi-recorded-music-bid
That's a serious depreciation.
 
I've certainly enjoyed reading this discussion. As much as Toddy and Tommyland may think they're disagreeing with each other, from my perspective, you're both agreeing with each other more often than not.
I've met lazy A&R guys that don't really know what's going on anymore. And these are guys who have spotted many number one artists in the UK in the past, right up until the early 2000's.

Well, most A&R guys have no clue, because the whole business has turned upside down. And not just downloading and the internet. In the late 80's and 90's there were so many record company buy outs and mergers, a lot of top execs got replaced, so rather than music people running the labels, they were replaced by financial guys who's job it was to maximize the stock price.

I had a friends band who was signed to a huge deal with WB, then the company's President was fired, and the band's album went right to the 99 cent bin.

The net result of all these mergers was artist development and long term building of a band went out the window.

Rush's first three albums bombed, their 4th went gold, their 8th went platinum.
Journey's first three albums bombed, their 5th finally turned a profit, their 8th made them super starts.
Fleetwood Mac has 8 albums of so-so sales before Mick found Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks that transformed them into one of the best selling groups.

Major don't do that anymore. You're either a hit, or your gone. Even if you had a hit, if the follow up album bombs, they'll drop you. Which leaves the average A&R person stripped of their power, because the label won't back them up on any long term projects; they either deliver hits or get laid off.

That, and traditionally, A&R people were focused on selling a band in their territory. As discussed, the market place is now global, and you never know if a band will be a hit in Easter Europe or Japan even if it fails in the USA or UK. As opposed to the 70's, where a band might only sell in one part of the USA but not another, and everything was more segmented.
 
I've certainly enjoyed reading this discussion. As much as Toddy and Tommyland may think they're disagreeing with each other, from my perspective, you're both agreeing with each other more often than not.


Well, most A&R guys have no clue, because the whole business has turned upside down. And not just downloading and the internet. In the late 80's and 90's there were so many record company buy outs and mergers, a lot of top execs got replaced, so rather than music people running the labels, they were replaced by financial guys who's job it was to maximize the stock price.

I had a friends band who was signed to a huge deal with WB, then the company's President was fired, and the band's album went right to the 99 cent bin.

The net result of all these mergers was artist development and long term building of a band went out the window.

Rush's first three albums bombed, their 4th went gold, their 8th went platinum.
Journey's first three albums bombed, their 5th finally turned a profit, their 8th made them super starts.
Fleetwood Mac has 8 albums of so-so sales before Mick found Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks that transformed them into one of the best selling groups.

Major don't do that anymore. You're either a hit, or your gone. Even if you had a hit, if the follow up album bombs, they'll drop you. Which leaves the average A&R person stripped of their power, because the label won't back them up on any long term projects; they either deliver hits or get laid off.

That, and traditionally, A&R people were focused on selling a band in their territory. As discussed, the market place is now global, and you never know if a band will be a hit in Easter Europe or Japan even if it fails in the USA or UK. As opposed to the 70's, where a band might only sell in one part of the USA but not another, and everything was more segmented.

Hey that's very interesting you know, I didn't know the specifics of all of those examples. I certainly agree with the "hit or gone philosophy" though. I have some friends that were signed to virgin for a bit, their first album did pretty well, they got placements in a few prime time adverts in the UK. On their second album they took their advance, used it to buy gear for themselves, and put out a nice self-produced album, but not aimed at the mainstream. Critically it did pretty well, however after the record bombed commercially, the major released them. It turned out that they had kept their commercial songs for their next album, along with the gear. Pretty creative use of a bank (record company) if you ask me.

I also have read a bit and discovered the segmentation you are speaking of, although I wasn't around to see it for myself. I have read some very interesting books on this subject (well, if you find the history of the recording industry interesting), actually I wrote a 10k word essay on it for my dissertation. I have to say that if I was born in the 1970s or early 1980s then I might have totally overlooked the music industry as a career path - other than drumming in a band, but growing up with the internet has made it less mystical. It's nice to log on in the morning, & have a quick browse of google news & music industry blogs, you learn something new every day.

As for agreeing with Tommy, you know you're totally right. I realised we were agreeing on many things whilst typing my long post, which is why I went out of my way to not appear rude, as I wasn't trying to be confrontational in the first place. I am certainly someone who gets into arguments easily! I think the nice thing about the music industry is that it feels like it has been at a sort of crossroads for a couple of years, no one really knows the wood from the trees. And those who do sadly aren't telling.
 
Wow Spides, the scene sounds as dead in Brissie as it does in Sydney :(

If I was young and ambitious I'd move to Europe - Britain or the mainland - for sure.

Yeah its definately rubbish, my band before we broke up was going to try and make in Tokyo. Wasn't my idea, but it seemed alot more appealing then trying to get noticed locally.

I guess I can't complain too much, I know when i'm on the look out for new music, i tend to look at US, scandanavian or mainland european bands (not a big fan of british music in general) for some new songs. I know that most of the aussie stuff is fairly rubbish and can't be bothered to find the odd good one as there is so much more quality overseas.
 
Yeah its definately rubbish, my band before we broke up was going to try and make in Tokyo. Wasn't my idea, but it seemed alot more appealing then trying to get noticed locally.

I guess I can't complain too much, I know when i'm on the look out for new music, i tend to look at US, scandanavian or mainland european bands (not a big fan of british music in general) for some new songs. I know that most of the aussie stuff is fairly rubbish and can't be bothered to find the odd good one as there is so much more quality overseas.

Still sounding familiar, the difference being that a guy I was in a band with in my teens joined another band later that DID go to Japan, and did a whole lot better there than here. Not saying that so you kick yourself :)

I see local bands by recommendation - it saves on kissing frogs.

A weird thing I've noticed of late, with the bar scene decimated by pokies, noise complaints and dance clubs. Regular clubs seem to only be hiring the high profile people. Now my band is doing the rounds of bowling clubs, which seem to have found the need to get hip to survive. These former bastions of elderly beer swilling are now putting on entertainment and pulling younger crowds at night. Not necessarily young ... but younger.

In the old days I'd thought playing a bowling club was about the most uncool gig possible but these ones we've done lately have been heaps of fun.
 
Out of interest what kind of music do you currently enjoy listening to drums_n_surf? I'm sure there are some UK bands that would interest you. The UK (to the outside world) probably seems to copy the US, when infact there is a ton of other stuff going on all the time. If anything it's the other way round at the moment, in many sub-genres.
 
I guess I am finding a lot of these bands albums are only really containing three or four good songs and the rest is just forgetful and poor on the Aussie scene.............Birds of Tokyo, Temper Trap, Josh & Julia Stone are such artists that spring to mind for me.........

when I was in the UK I thought Yves Klein Blue were English as they had that identical sound to The Kooks etc and low and behold they are a Brissie band!!

cast your mind back to a truely great album where you love every song and don't want it to stop..............man that is years for me...........

Also drums_n_surf moving to Tokyo or whatever I doubt a band couldn't fail to be honest........being from Aus or anywhere outside of Japan will gain you masses of immediate publicity...........the music press would be all over it ha ha
 
I also have read a bit and discovered the segmentation you are speaking of, although I wasn't around to see it for myself. I have read some very interesting books on this subject (well, if you find the history of the recording industry interesting), actually I wrote a 10k word essay on it for my dissertation. I have to say that if I was born in the 1970s or early 1980s then I might have totally overlooked the music industry as a career path - other than drumming in a band, but growing up with the internet has made it less mystical. It's nice to log on in the morning, & have a quick browse of google news & music industry blogs, you learn something new every day..

I do find reading the history of the music business very interesting, and I've read several books on the subject, along with several autobiography's of well know musicians. Along with watching friends band get signed and dropped, and my own bands flirtations with record labels.

I don't have any first hand knowledge of the segmented markets of the US, it's only something I've read about, and realized over the years when I hear about some 70's band that was suppositively huge, but I can't recall every hearing them, and then I find out they were only huge on the east coast! When I was a kid, MTV came out, and that made every band they played equal from east to west.

Anyhow, I saw this interview from a Swedish band Therion, and I thought it was appropriate for this thread:

:
Oh yeah, we’re never going to tour the US again. It would be a miracle for us to do that again, like an offer we couldn’t refuse. I knew we’d do OK there, but the tours we did [both in support of Gothic Kabbalah] had total shithead booking. It was pretty miserable, never too posh. There were about 150-200 people a show and in this economy, it’s tough. Hard to get anywhere with this economy. I’m 40 years-old. We do well in Europe, great in Latin America. Some people think the United States is essential, but we’re not big in Africa either [laughs]. Not touring there takes away a lot of the legwork, and when you do all of that work to tour the States, it’s not worth it.
 
Hey Toddy. I don't doubt that theres a fair few british bands i'd like, likewise with aussie bands, it's just I have a hard time finding them. When trying to find new music, i generally go to last.fm and search a subgenre or go to an artist i like and find 'similar artists'. I then have a listen to a few of the previews they have and see which bands i like. I find that nearly every band i've found this way come from the US or various parts of mainland europe. I do like radiohead alot, but thats about it from England. Other popular bands i like are Mars Volta, RHCP, John Frusciante solo stuff, Led Zep, Dire Straits, Hendrix, older Linkin Park, Nirvana, Pixies and Them Crooked Vultures. I like many other bands but chances are not too many people have heard of them. If you have a few UK bands you want to recommend, i'm all ears.

And Spides, funny you should mention that about Yves Klein Blues. I knew of the drummer in the band as he went to my school, but I'd never heard them play. Heard them on the radio once and thought it was some british band. Ended up hearing them live with my friend, and i was like...i recognise that song! Was a bit surprised haha.
 
drums_n_surf I did a Chili Peppers tribute in Brisbane about two years ago ha ha.....most clueless venues thought the Chili's were heavier than Metallica so wouldn't book us, man little did they know!!!

Back on topic I have found Brisbane (and no different to London no doubt I was just lucky who I played with there) to be full of guys who think if they are not signed after the first week of oding an originals show it's never going to happen

Iv'e done a few originals shows in Brisbane like The Zoo, Club 299, Tempo Hotel and well the attendance to these shows it makes you wonder if it's all worth it..........
 
I saw something recently that made me think of this thread.

I was watching a popular TV show that airs on Showtime in the States. A Canadian actor whom I'm familiar with shows up on screen, has a bunch of lines and is in a couple different scenes - and I was floored - I had a moment of happiness for the guy and thought to myself, he's made it!

After some thought, I realized that the show he's known on here in Canada also airs on network television in the States and probably has more viewers in the States than the Showtime program I had just seen him on. But I still felt as though this was a landmark achievement for the guy. Why?

The US media machine glorifies and over sensationalizes their talent. You see them on the covers of magazines, the topic of Entertainment Tonight, being harassed on TMZ. What's the Canadian version of this? How do we put our talent on a pedestal? If we try, it's usually on a level that can only be seen as a feeble attempt at copying the US, that ultimately falls short. Look at how big of a deal the Emmy's are treated as in comparison to the Gemini's, or the AMA's to the Juno's. One is a red carpet affair, the other is having some buds over for some brews to pat ourselves on the back.

Having mentioned TMZ, I saw a parody done by the good folks at "This Hour Has 22 Minutes", called TMZed. The "talent" that the videographers were following did not shy away, shout curse words at or otherwise become abusive - they were friendly, talkative and willing to share anything - in my experience, this is (for the most part), an accurate portrayal of a Canadian celebrity.

As a generalization, for us here in Canada, the American market is where you need to go to "make it". I'm not sure any of these thoughts would prove relevant to a band/actor/artist from Country A looking to break in Country B... Is it strictly because of a larger market? Is it how talent in another country gets treated differently? Is it because there is no market in your area and it's just a necessity to even get noticed?

Why do I, as someone who has a bit of knowledge of the industry, still look at the actor I spoke of in a different light having landed a role on a US produced show when his "fame" can be attributed to the work he's done here in Canada? I dunno... it's odd.

It always make me laugh when unsigned bands with say, a demo, hit the road with the intent of making new fans. Playing gigs doesn't always generate a fanbase. Shows are what you set-up to entertain fans after they've discovered you (through hearing your records, reading good reviews of your music, seeing you on YouTube, getting a burned copy of your CD from a friend of theirs, etc).

To me, this is like saying that bands don't have to poster for shows anymore because they can do all their promoting on the internet. It's still a way to at very least attract the attention of a potential fan. I know here in Toronto there is a still a good lot of people who go to shows to check out new music, I've met them, and although they aren't as plentiful as folks in smaller markets, (where there is nothing going on other than the show you are playing that night), they might have heard about the show from a poster on a telephone pole.

While I certainly can't argue that playing somewhere where people already know you is better than not, I would also add that I've done good shows outside of my immediate market because it was the second or third time we were there. The first time we showed up as nobodies, dropped a bunch of merch and came back 6 months later as heroes*. Yes, the internet has had a huge impact on how bands get out there, but not everyone (yet), gets all their new media this way. To sum this up and tie in my first thought on having fun, if you always approach a band from a dollars and cents point of view, you may miss out on the fun of hitting the road, meeting new people and making new fans. This also impacts how you are perceived, which again, probably ties in with what I mentioned above. To the average person, a band that has been on a tour will be viewed differently than a band who has not.

I agree, although I guess some people also have bigger ambitions than others and want to make a living from music, etc.

For sure, I just see those I know who want to make a living doing something other than trying to "make it", they are studio guys, guys who play corporate gigs, etc... The mates I have that are trying to make a living by "making it" are typically spend more time working the business angle than writing songs and performing live.

This resonates strongly with me. I've had some minor successes along the way, but if I had set out to make a living, I'd have to consider myself a failure, too.

Instead, I'm still playing in original bands, always on the look-out for what's cool on the bleeding edge, and having a great time doing it. I think I've been pretty successful that way because I know I'll have a lot of recordings that I'm proud of riding with me in my coffin.

Amen.


* - possibly a slight exaggeration.
 
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What you mean by "making it" is different for different musicians and artists. Some musicians prefer their career to be small venue shows after small venue shows, maybe being signed to a small independent artist is enough.

Meanwhile, before Sydney became the poker machine capital of the world and had a music scene, some fine bands would come over here after outgrowing their native New Zealand.

I think Pollyanna can understand, the John Butler Trio has been quite successful in Australia signed to an "independent" label.

Would you say that the state of the Australian music business can atleast partially be explained nicely by the lack of value the average Australian has for creativity?

Australia is basically an intellectual, creative and artistic desert...think of the kind of people the expatriate Australians are...they're not leaving because of the standard of living, they are leaving to countries that value exceptionality...and tax much less.
 
I can't disagree with you Jer, because you're right, bands can and do make new fans on the road. Maybe the people were there to check out the local talent on the bill, and were then pleasantly surprised by the support act from out of town. But much better to show up somewhere where you have some fans (who should bring other friends). Use the Internet to target areas in advance; make some new fans online and then let them know when you will passing through – whether this is done through a personal message on some social networking site; whatever it takes. Those few people should hopefully mobilise a few more heads to come with them to the gig. The alternative is just hitting the road hoping people will just happen to show up because it's friday night and they have nothing else going on. Maybe, but there's about 50 other things people could be doing than just hitting the local bar in the hopes that some unknown band is going to blow them away. How often does that happen? Everyone's experience will be different.

Yes, the internet has had a huge impact on how bands get out there, but not everyone (yet), gets all their new media this way.
Are flyers and adverts in magazines/local papers obsolete? Certainly not! They have their place. But at the same time, I don't know that many people who listen to music and attend gigs that don't have a Facebook page or who use the Internet in some capacity. And if they didn't see it themselves online, and instead heard it from a friend, chances are the friend heard it from someone else who saw it online, etc. If you trace the genesis of word of mouth, the Internet is the fastest way to get news around the world.

To sum this up and tie in my first thought on having fun, if you always approach a band from a dollars and cents point of view, you may miss out on the fun of hitting the road, meeting new people and making new fans. This also impacts how you are perceived, which again, probably ties in with what I mentioned above.To the average person, a band that has been on a tour will be viewed differently than a band who has not.

Maybe, maybe not. There's this niche band from Norway called Ulver. Ever since they went progressive (I heard they were once a metal band), they have played very few gigs but are extremely popular. It's only now, something like 10 years later, as more and more people have gotten into them, that the band are starting to play more places (because there will be fans to go see them). Plus, the live show is a sight to behold. It's a seated gig, something a little bit different that suits their music. Plenty of other niche bands could have toured the entire world, playing every little sweat box that supplies elecricity and still not come close to the following Ulver have, who achieved this without having to tour.

http://www.myspace.com/ulver1

I don't think they are less respected because they didn't tour. They let their wares mature enough until they knew there would be a subtantial following in every city they would eventually play.
 
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the John Butler Trio has been quite successful in Australia signed to an "independent" label.

He is also doing pretty well outside of Aus and I don't know if the rumours are true but I have heard he donates nearly a $1million a year to help other up and coming artists etc...
 
Australia has become an insanely expensive Country to live in right now. I was first here in 2002 and a wage could go a long way with groceries and fuel etc.........when I returned in 2006 and to now it is going off the radar. Everything is stupidly expensive

Here is an example, I bought Dave Mustaine's bio for $39

On Amazon UK I can ship it here for $16.........

Now they are talking of increasing the tax on imported goods so they are clicking onto people buying stuff from the States..........

Guitarist here went into a Guitar shop who had the Mesa Boogie amp he wanted, they wanted $5000...........he got it shipped from the States for $2800

I guess we are going off topic here ha ha.......

But back on topic sought off, I have heard from a very good source that ARIA is about to go bust!!!

Also there was something like 65 Music Festivals in Aus this year, 80% of those have gone bust!!!!

Food for thought.....
 
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