Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Rubbish. Armstrong didn't even play on it. He was stood in front of a microphone and sang the words on the paper in front of him, didn't you know that? "Jazz interpretation" indeed. "Legendary track." Are you serious?

Louis Armstrong did indeed cut many legendary tracks, but to say that "What A Wonderful World" is one of them is ridiculous.

Well I agree with better stuff from that period from Armstrong but this vocal take has stood the test of time for better or worse coming from this great jazz musician of his time. See if that horrid offering of it from KG over top has the same shelf life down the road.

Anyway read your own earlier post on Armstrong in reference to JUST THAT Jay if your are trying the old typical troll behavior thing yet again into this current discussion.


The more things change the more they stay the same.....i'm out.
 
Well I agree with better stuff from that period from Armstrong but this vocal take has stood the test of time for better or worse coming from this great jazz musician of his time. See if that horrid offering of it from KG over top has the same shelf life.

Anyway read your own earlier post on that for reference to JUST THAT Jay if your are trying the old typical troll behavior thing yet again into this current discussion.


The more things change the more they say the same.....i'm out.

I have no idea what it is you're trying to say here, none at all.
 
You're a bad apple aydee! LOL!
C'mon, Bob isnt this more fun than pondering the relative merits of 2 up 2 down brain teasers or was it the other way around ; )

Ya, I dont know what it is about the J word..it gets the switchblades out, every time. Funny thing is I'm enjoying this thread because I can totally see it from two contrasting points of view. Steamers and Larry's.

Both are equally valid, in my view.

Steamer's resentment ( or Metheny's for that matter ) at the desecration of his music, and having at least some personal standards as a musician and standing by them, and Larry's view that every musician has a fundamental right to express himself without judgement, and all music is at the very least, non threatening and something you can so easily walk away from, so why bash anyone?

Dualism, pluralism. I guess those fit in a music discussion.

Regarding Andy's question on jazz : Ninety per cent of all jazz is half
improvisation. The other half is the part people play while others are
playing something they never played with anyone who played that part.
So if you play the wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it
might be right if you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's
wrong.


( Sorry, some might have seen this before, but I get a kick out of it everytime I read it )

...
 
So what are we saying about the decision of Satchmo's estate to give Kenny their blessings? Not hearing much about that - which is the key to this whole thing.

I checked out a thread on this in AllAboutJazz last night. The level of hostility and invective was remarkably immature IMO. To be fair, a decent-sized minority also found the level of bile inappropriate. One asked what religion Pat was defending. A few mentioned that their wives were very keen on Kenny G. A couple of them were dragged unwillingly along to gigs and were surprised by the excellent sound quality and musicianship of the band.

It seems to me that, behind all this hostility is embarrassment. Jazzers who like playing edgy music hate the idea that when they mention that they play jazz, many people immediately think of them as playing saccharine music like Kenny G. He's bringing down the neighbourhood in their eyes. Fair enough. No one wants to feel misrepresented.

However, the horse has bolted. The fact is that people are going to look for Kenny in the jazz section of the CD shop so that's where his CDs go. There is only one effective counter - for prominent jazz players to come up with great music that is accessible enough to appeal broadly. Weather Report did their bit with Birdland. Any other takers?
 
So what are we saying about the decision of Satchmo's estate to give Kenny their blessings? Not hearing much about that - which is the key to this whole thing.

Yes, exactly right. "The Heebie Jeebies" or "West End Blues" or anything recorded by Louis Armstrong's Hot Five or Hot Seven are always going to stand as true historic documents of the "birth of jazz." But "What A Wonderful World?" Please...you could have Megadeath overdub on that thing and it wouldn't matter.

I just don't get this outrage over Kenny G using that tune, I really don't. It's a lousy tune, which makes it perfect for him.

These jazz guys get a little too precious in my opinion. They need to drink a cold beer and listen to some punk rock, try to learn something, you know?
 
Weather Report did their bit with Birdland. Any other takers?
While I totally agree with you, I think that there's a problem in that Birdland has an enormous hook, and "serious" jazzers eschew hooks. I'm not even sure serious jazzers consider Weather Report a jazz band owing to their "pop" sensibilities. I heard Peter Erskine playing the 2 and 4 on his snare once...

But in all seriousness, isn't there a natural tension between establishing a hook (that the masses would get and, more importantly, buy) and leaving it wide open for improvisation? I don't know how you'd go about bridging that gap. And unlikely that a memorable melody to the masses could be a nearly non-repeating atonal jumble of clams (sorry, couldn't resist! But the point is there).

Please...you could have Megadeath overdub on that thing and it wouldn't matter.
Ha ha! LOL!
These jazz guys get a little too precious in my opinion. They need to drink a cold beer and listen to some punk rock, try to learn something, you know?
That's kind of my take as well. The earliest days of jazz were set against some unpleasant realities (and boredom) similar to what brought about rock and even punk rock.
 
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P.S. The song was first offered to Tony Bennett. He hated it.

I am glad to hear that. I love the way Armstrong sings that song, and as far as I am concerned, he is the only one who should ever sing it. As for Tony's dissing of it, well what can you expect from that guy. I put him up there with guys like Dean Martin, if that says anything.
 
Its all about the music and the musicians who have made serious contributions for some of us folks on the subject of jazz. You can be both liberal, open minded but still have the edit/filter button in place to seperate the truly bad from the truly good in life without being a complete wallflower instead having a firm opinion as far as i'm concerned on the subject at hand. If its crap its crap and has no content that follows a jazz path or conceptual jazz framework/concept laid out in front of it or being based on sorry its not the real "deal". No amount of debate will make it right in my books. KG is just average commercial pop music sax player with a much better slick marketing team and record label behind him...honest truth

Pretty logical, simple and not complicated at all for this jazz musician to follow and understand.

When you want to blur the {musical} waters to accept everything "as is" and on equal ground without question you run into problems having no clue what is going on musically speaking period at the end of the day life has taught me.

You have to have conviction and a true understanding of what your opinions are on what you're standing for both as a listener and player equally alike for success either in the debating arena or on the bandstand or the end product lacks having a real firm backbone {substance} as a result from where I stand.

I am with you on the desecration of that song by KG. I was joking about the beating and whipping, but dead serious on the sacriledge. And I realize there was no wind instruments on it as recorded, so KG would have added that. I just don't think a musician of his caliber is worthy of contributing to even a pop standard by Satchmo. It would be like Madonna adding to an old Billie Holiday song - just not right, and not a good tribute to the dead.

However, my point on Metheny's critique was that the standards that he used involved strict jazz scales and not bleeding into blues styles, which only reminded me how jazz guys are so strict in what they define as their music that I think they bind themselves into completely choking it off as a living form. Everything in this world evolves and changes constantly and alot of delta jazz guys float around between jazz, blues, zydeco, creole, etc. I don't think any of the originals wrote some book that said "thou shallt only play with Acoustic Basses, Vintage Kerope Zildjians, and 4 piece drumsets, and only in pentatonic scales". These concepts have been all picked up over the years by the afficiandos themselves, including such concepts that Chic Corea is a blasphemist that should die in a muslim beheading ritual.
 
OMG! I'm listening to the Kenny G/Satchmo duet! Ha ha! I'm in friggin' tears!! Whoaaa!! Maybe it's just cuz of the context provided by this thread, but, oh jeez... that's hilarious!

Okay, it's over now... why anyone wouldn't just get a good laugh outta that, I'll never know. Sure, it was over the top pathetic. Like beyond Disney even. Whew! Whadaya gonna do?
 
I am with you on the desecration of that song by KG. I was joking about the beating and whipping, but dead serious on the sacriledge. And I realize there was no wind instruments on it as recorded, so KG would have added that. I just don't think a musician of his caliber is worthy of contributing to even a pop standard by Satchmo. It would be like Madonna adding to an old Billie Holiday song - just not right, and not a good tribute to the dead.

Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

It's too easy to play cynical and ascribe the very worst of human nature to those in charge of Satchmo's estate ("oh, they only wanted the dollars") but it would be highly presumptuous. They might have been hugely chuffed that a bestselling modern musician wanted to bring their patriarch's memory to the forefront. Ever thought of that?

None of us know this, but to throw the whole thing on KG as though he did it all by himself with no input from Louis's nearest and dearest is clearly driven more by emotion than logic.
 
Louis Armstrong is the fountainhead of jazz. His importance to the music cannot be overstated.

That's the point, isn't it? Metheny doesn't state that he desecrated a jazz legend, but is clear that he has desecrated the most important figure in jazz.

I think an argument could be made, however academic, that Kenny G is appropriating the tune , and in that sense 'claiming Armstrong' as a pop artist. As much as Armstrong is the Fountainhead of jazz, he is also one of the most important figures in American popular song.

Of course in the jazz world today there sits the controversy of its claimed lack of accessibility. Well, you have to ask accessible to whom. It is certainly accessible to many. Why are the huddle masses of top 40 radio more important than the cultivated jazz listener? I've spoke of this before but you have to admit the irony. In my book, that is really where the snobbery lies.
 
Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

It's too easy to play cynical and ascribe the very worst of human nature to those in charge of Satchmo's estate ("oh, they only wanted the dollars") but it would be highly presumptuous. They might have been hugely chuffed that a bestselling modern musician wanted to bring their patriarch's memory to the forefront. Ever thought of that?

None of us know this, but to throw the whole thing on KG as though he did it all by himself with no input from Louis's nearest and dearest is clearly driven more by emotion than logic.


I must chime in again....

No I didn't miss the point and that point being for me it just plain SUCKS and is mediocre that being THE bottom line from a musical {if you can call it that} standpoint IMO.

Strangelove nailed it.... pure sacrilege on several levels and I don't really care WHO approved of this abomination on Armstrong one bit...still doesn't make it RIGHT in the long run anyway you look at it, neither does speculating and manipulating the story behind to make it so in my view.

Carry on.......
 
Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?
I like the original and do think that adding Kenny G spoiled it by trying to gratuitously pull the heart-strings and fashioning it into some Hallmark moment. However, I'm not convinced that that was the intent - that there was anything necessarily unsavory or sinister about the whole affair.

But I agree with you, Polly, that the main point isn't so much that is was sacrilege, because it was clearly authorized by the Armstrong estate, and likely was seen as a fitting tribute by them.

But I'm not so protective like that, anyway. Just look at how many hip hop artists have sampled Bonham over the years - probably more than all other drummers combined, and I usually think it's pretty cool. I haven't ever heard any rock drummers getting worked up about that. Maybe we rock guys & gals play by a different set of "rules", if any.

I must chime in again....

No I didn't miss the point and that point being for me it just plain SUCKS and is mediocre that being THE bottom line from a musical {if you can call it that - I would, despite that I didn't care for it} standpoint IMO.

Strangelove nailed it.... pure sacrilege on several levels and I don't really care WHO approved of this abomination on Armstrong one bit...still doesn't make it RIGHT (doesn't make it WRONG, though, does it?) in the long run (how 'bout the short run?) anyway you look at it, neither does speculating and manipulating the story behind to make it so in my view.

Carry on.......YES, SIR!

I too think that Strangelove nailed it with this:
However, my point on Metheny's critique ... only reminded me how jazz guys are so strict in what they define as their music that I think they bind themselves into completely choking it off as a living form. Everything in this world evolves and changes ...
Choking it off as a living form... Wow. That's powerful stuff.
 
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How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

Pol, perhaps because the true inheritors/spokespeople for legacies of any body of work, in a larger sense are not family or estate but the profession or the community.. artistic, scientific whatever.

I wonder if this pot boiled over because KG 'masqueraded' as a jazz player ( and as someone said now finds a permanent place in the jazz shelves ) which upset a lot of community sensibilities.

Wierd Al doesn't pretend to be anything other than a 'spoofist' ( if thats a word ), and a damn good one, Yani is just Yani- defies all categories, and .. and so on..there's no pretence.
 
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Word of advice for you MikeM......

Conrad {Jay Norem} does a MUCH better of job of being a seasoned troll and manipulating others post to push one's agenda like I just saw what you did on mine, totally sad by the way but you win the prize of going to his same low level of ignorance and BS.

You have some catching up to do but you're off to a very fine start IMO.

And you wonder and ask about getting input from jazz players and still wonder why most jazz playing members don't post here anymore...answered your own question with your own sad behavior i'm afraid.

Got a axe to grind Mike?...oh yes is the answer to that i'm afraid just as Jay does in his own "sweet" way :{
 
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