Joe Walsh - The truth about music

It's sad that you think you have to play for free to gain exposure. When I was in high school we got paid to play at parties, weddings, bar mitvahs, church functions, school gymnasiums, etc. I got paid better to play in someone's basement than some clubs want to pay today, and it wasn't because everyone was rolling in dough, either. They valued what we did. No one expected us to be seasoned pros, but they didn't expect us to play for free, either.

I think that is the problem that Steve is trying to point out - you've been led to believe your music has little or no value, and you don't see that you're being taken advantage of.

You don't have to play for free to gain exposure, but I would rather have that option open than closed.

Mainly I'm trying to focus on record sales, because on that field, no matter what you do it's going to be available for free somewhere, you have absolutely no control over that, so in that particular field you have to find a way to make people want to buy your record as oppose to pirating it or find some other way to make money off of your record.

As for live shows, if you're looking to make a living off of music, you would have to be stupid to play live shows for free, live shows, lessons, merch, ext. Is probably where you're going to make most of your money. But you guys are making it sound like all venues force you to play for free, which is absolutely not true if your band has any sort of following at all.

However, as someone who doesn't have a band following yet, I would look for venues to play for free as a grassroots sort of thing, gain a following, get some experience and look for some actual gigs. If you can't find actual paying gigs it's because your band doesn't have much of a following and or you're absolutely terrible at advertising, you have no one to blame but yourself for that.
 
Brian,

I see your point of view and used to subscribe to it (the 'playing for free' side) but I can happily say that playing for free does not increase your 'exposure' unless you are very, very lucky. Generally speaking, bands that have a genuine following will charge a fee for playing and those that want to see that band are happy to pay a fee to see them. 'Free' gigs offer almost no 'actual' exposure because you'll never share the bill with a band that have commercial interest.

The bands that can charge will be in the professional position to do so. They won't play for free and bands that can charge will be the bands with a following. They won't play free gigs. Do you expect them to suddenly stop charging all together so that you can play on their bill for free? Absolutely not. All you'll end up with on a 'free' bill are a group of bands that are only seen by family and friends, with few fans outside of that - and that is no way to get exposure. All you're doing is encouraging promoters to not pay you.

If you were offered a non-paying slot at a festival, where there are followers of other bands there that will see you by co-incidence, that's fine. You will expose your band to new people. If you're sharing the bill with a band with a large following then you will also gain exposure. In neither case would I expect to play for free but then - and only then - will you play a decent gig. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling promoters that you'll do it for nothing.

You get strung along with promises of 'bigger gigs' and they just don't happen. Trust me.

In terms of my own music, I'm happy to release anything I write under a Creative Commons licence and release it free of charge but that's purely because I subscribe to a 'Copyleft' philosophy when it comes to my own art and music is not my primary source of income. My music is not commercial and I'm much more interested in the idea spreading but if I were to write commercially-viable music and it was my main source of income, then I would absolutely charge for it.

Record labels are now much more about handling distribution and marketing. For artists to make serious money, it certainly helps to have a label on your side to deal with the complexities of distribution and marketing. The bands that have 'gone it alone' (so to speak) King Crimson, Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails, etc and still made significant money succeed largely because they have a following that their labels helped create. It is possible to release music successfully and make money without a label now (democratising power of the Internet) but it is very, very difficult and rather than acting as an artist, you effectively would have to quit any job you had and deal with marketing as a full-time job.
 
Brian,

I see your point of view and used to subscribe to it (the 'playing for free' side) but I can happily say that playing for free does not increase your 'exposure' unless you are very, very lucky. Generally speaking, bands that have a genuine following will charge a fee for playing and those that want to see that band are happy to pay a fee to see them. 'Free' gigs offer almost no 'actual' exposure because you'll never share the bill with a band that have commercial interest.

The bands that can charge will be in the professional position to do so. They won't play for free and bands that can charge will be the bands with a following. They won't play free gigs. Do you expect them to suddenly stop charging all together so that you can play on their bill for free? Absolutely not. All you'll end up with on a 'free' bill are a group of bands that are only seen by family and friends, with few fans outside of that - and that is no way to get exposure. All you're doing is encouraging promoters to not pay you.

If you were offered a non-paying slot at a festival, where there are followers of other bands there that will see you by co-incidence, that's fine. You will expose your band to new people. If you're sharing the bill with a band with a large following then you will also gain exposure. In neither case would I expect to play for free but then - and only then - will you play a decent gig. Otherwise, all you're doing is telling promoters that you'll do it for nothing.

You get strung along with promises of 'bigger gigs' and they just don't happen. Trust me.

In terms of my own music, I'm happy to release anything I write under a Creative Commons licence and release it free of charge but that's purely because I subscribe to a 'Copyleft' philosophy when it comes to my own art and music is not my primary source of income. My music is not commercial and I'm much more interested in the idea spreading but if I were to write commercially-viable music and it was my main source of income, then I would absolutely charge for it.

Record labels are now much more about handling distribution and marketing. For artists to make serious money, it certainly helps to have a label on your side to deal with the complexities of distribution and marketing. The bands that have 'gone it alone' (so to speak) King Crimson, Radiohead, Nine Inch Nails, etc and still made significant money succeed largely because they have a following that their labels helped create. It is possible to release music successfully and make money without a label now (democratising power of the Internet) but it is very, very difficult and rather than acting as an artist, you effectively would have to quit any job you had and deal with marketing as a full-time job.

Thanks for that clear post, Duncan. You have stated it much more eloquently than this big-headed Idaho boy could have.
 
Thanks for that clear post, Duncan. You have stated it much more eloquently than this big-headed Idaho boy could have.

I've seen it time and time again.

There's a promoter that I've come across in the past that wouldn't pay bands (or even his own staff) properly. Some of the gigs were busy but when I was on that scene six years ago, I knew the names of most of the audience because they were regulars. If somebody has already seen you, they're not a new potential marketing opportunity. Exposure in the truest sense is having as many new and different people see your band and new people won't come to a gig unless there's somebody playing that they want to see. Bands that are worth seeing charge a fee for playing.

I'm not a marketer and have very little interest in business but even I can see that free products are usually free for a reason. Who wants to see little Timmy play with his friends on a Saturday night for a £5 when they can see Mr. and Mrs. Big-shot down the road at a much better venue for £25? Nobody except little Timmy's parents.
 
I really have no idea where you got the idea that I thought bands should play for free, I never meant to insinuate that all. All I was saying was that actual copies of records can be found for free regardless of the decisions they make, someone will always put it up for download on Piratebay ect. Without the bands permission, all I was trying to say is that bands need to adapt to this change and learn how to continue making money as musicians, the thing I was arguing against, is the view point of Joe Walsh complaining about people being able to download music free and not adapting to changes. Joe was obviously not complaining about free shows because he only plays high paying gigs.

I am absolutely not saying bands should play for free, in any sense.

It was probably a misscommunication on my part, but all I was trying to say about music being free is in the terms of recorded material.

When I addressed free shows all I was trying to say was that I would rather have that option available to me than not if I were a casual musician doing music as a hobby or a second job.
Side note: I enjoyed hearing everyones view on the matter, if I seemed somewhat irritated it's because I was unclear on what tamadrum was trying to say ( still a little confused on his point).
 
Returing way back to the OP, and Joe Walsh whining about 'no money' I can't help but be reminded of his song "Life's Been good'.

Life's Been Good - Lyrics

I have a mansion, forget the price.
Ain't never been there they tell me it's nice.
I live in hotels, tear out the walls.
I have accountants pay for it all.

They say I'm crazy, but I have a good time.
I'm just looking for clues at the scene of the crime.
Life's been good to me so far.

My Masarati does one-eighty-five.
I lost my license, now I don't drive.
I have a limo, ride in the back.
I lock the doors in case I'm attacked.
I'm makin' records, my fans they can't wait.
They write me letters, tell me I'm great.
So I got me an office, gold records on the wall.
Just leave a message, maybe I'll call.

Lucky I'm sane after all I've been through.
(Everybody say I'm cool......He's cool)
I can't complain but sometimes I still do.
Life's been good to me so far
 
Hey you want to hear something really cool Tama?

If you don't want to play free shows you can chose not to do free shows WOAHHHH HOLY SHIT WHO WOULD GUESSED OMG WHAT IS THIS?

there are benefits to playing free shows when you're a small band, it's free advertisement, it's a win for the venue and it's a win for you, if you don't want to do it, you can just chose not to do it.

Big bands don't do things for free (no shit...) because that doesn't benefit them in any way.

I don't even know what you're trying to say, if you don't want to play shows for free, don't do them, it's that simple good luck finding a venue willing to pay you top dollar with no show experience.

If you actually think playing even one note for free to get "exposure" is actually a good idea,then you've gone down the rabbit hole.

One of the great lies.There really is a Santa Clause,the Easter bunny,the flying spaghetti monster....and the check's in the mail.

How is it a win to play for nothing,unless it's a charity event or just a couple of guys jamming in a basement.

How is it "free" advertisement,when you paid for your instruments,years of practice, gas,transportation,meals,and possibly lodgeing,so some venue owner who places NO value on you,your music,your band or your talent or your "artistry"...translate to a "win"?For the venue maybe,but for you?LOL

If that's winning then,lots of us who actually get paid, are losers,but gladly so..I'll take that over the "win" anyday.

There are people like you getting taken on the streets of NY City playing 3 card montey...every day there tourist.

Your right,I don't do free gigs ,unless it's for a charitable cause,and NOT for some cheap ass club owner who's making money.....on YOUR dime.

There is NO,repeat ,NO benefit to doing free shows,except to air out your own ego,or maybe to have fun at funs expence.

Nobody is looking for "TOP" dollar,just honest and fair money, for an honest performance.

Man,have I got some beach front property in Arizona to sell you.............lol.

Steve B
 
I really have no idea where you got the idea that I thought bands should play for free, I never meant to insinuate that all. All I was saying was that actual copies of records can be found for free regardless of the decisions they make, someone will always put it up for download on Piratebay ect. Without the bands permission, all I was trying to say is that bands need to adapt to this change and learn how to continue making money as musicians, the thing I was arguing against, is the view point of Joe Walsh complaining about people being able to download music free and not adapting to changes. Joe was obviously not complaining about free shows because he only plays high paying gigs.

I am absolutely not saying bands should play for free, in any sense.

It was probably a misscommunication on my part, but all I was trying to say about music being free is in the terms of recorded material.

When I addressed free shows all I was trying to say was that I would rather have that option available to me than not if I were a casual musician doing music as a hobby or a second job.
Side note: I enjoyed hearing everyones view on the matter, if I seemed somewhat irritated it's because I was unclear on what tamadrum was trying to say ( still a little confused on his point).

I thought my point was chrystal clear.

Play for free = stupid

Free music = just plain wrong.Intellecual property is NOT free

Bands who seek perfection in an organic,human performance(which is inherently flawed) = OCD

Steve B
 
I thought my point was chrystal clear.

Play for free = stupid

Free music = just plain wrong.Intellecual property is NOT free

Bands who seek perfection in an organic,human performance(which is inherently flawed) = OCD

Steve B

Free music I would disagree on.

It very much depends what you're doing. The stuff that used to write (and still do sometimes) is not commercial and based around ideas and aesthetic exploration. I'm more interested in the ideas spreading than making money. If I were relying on music for income and it was commerically-minded, I would charge.
 
I thought my point was chrystal clear.

Play for free = stupid

Free music = just plain wrong.Intellecual property is NOT free

Bands who seek perfection in an organic,human performance(which is inherently flawed) = OCD

Steve B

1 then don't do it

2 doesn't matter if it's wrong, it's happening and there's nothing anyone can do about it, you have to adjust to this change if you want to keep making money. Whining about it isn't going to make it go away.

There's a huge difference between playing free shows and free recordings, the former the band has the final say in the matter, the latter is completely out of their control.

That's the only poo t I was trying to make.
 
I absolutely think that musicians need to embrace free music though, because it's not going to stop. You can either make the best out of it as you can, or you can ignore it

Free music: It seems that noone mentioned the point that when music is free, many
artists actually can't and won't release any more of their beautiful and well crafted
pieces of art anymore. Because it's too much work and heart that goes into it completely
unrewarded.

Have you i.e. seen Gavin Harrison's post on this matter?

Gavin Harrison said:
Yes it's something I have spent a long time doing here in my studio over the past 16 years. I have done some of tests that you described. It is of course very time consuming but I have benefited from it - and continue to do so. I'm still making experiments with drums/mics/effects even now. I must admit that my enthusiasm for making such DVDs where I spend 100's of hours making them (only to find them all over the net on free download sites) has pretty much eroded away. I know there are many people who buy them and are happy to do so - but there's nothing quite like seeing your life's work given away on peer to peer servers to really dishearten you. It's not really even the money - but the fact that some folks have decided to give it a value of ZERO. - sorry for the rant.
(http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=698&page=150, Post #5965)
 
Free music: It seems that noone mentioned the point that when music is free, many
artists actually can't and won't release any more of their beautiful and well crafted
pieces of art anymore. Because it's too much work and heart that goes into it completely
unrewarded.

Have you i.e. seen Gavin Harrison's post on this matter?

(http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=698&page=150, Post #5965)

I'm not sure that's relevant to this thread - what's being discussed there is piracy.

The Joe Walsh rant that started this thread wasn't about piracy; it's easy to make a case for the continuing evolution of the market for creative works. It's a lot harder to make a case for piracy.
 
Free music: It seems that noone mentioned the point that when music is free, many
artists actually can't and won't release any more of their beautiful and well crafted
pieces of art anymore. Because it's too much work and heart that goes into it completely
unrewarded.

Have you i.e. seen Gavin Harrison's post on this matter?

(http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=698&page=150, Post #5965)

Although I do agree nothing at this point musicians need to live with free music though, because it's not going to stop.

But the above quote is certainly a sad, but, true aspect of how some musicians are living with it the concept of free music

I've read a number of name artists question declare they won't make more albums, because of this topic. Others will put out music, but won't tour because they have non-music income that pays more.

And it has little to do with making a profit, as much as it has to do with just not losing money. Recording at a high level is very expensive. Just trying break even is difficult.
 
1 then don't do it

2 doesn't matter if it's wrong, it's happening and there's nothing anyone can do about it, you have to adjust to this change if you want to keep making money. Whining about it isn't going to make it go away.

There's a huge difference between playing free shows and free recordings, the former the band has the final say in the matter, the latter is completely out of their control.

That's the only poo t I was trying to make.

1) I don't do it for free,except for a fund raiser or chatitable event ,or just at an open jam..

There is something you can do about it.Copyright your material,and sue those copying and playing your music without paying the proper fees.That called mailbox money,and song writers are entitled to it ...by federal law.Identify music thieves to local police and the FBI,who WLL make arrests and sieze contraband.

The NYPD and the FBI,make regular stings and arrests of unlicensed individuals,selling pirated music.That's called copyright infringement and violates copyright laws in the US.

I'm happy to say,music pirates are now going to jail and paying heavy fines.

This may not stop it,but these thieves are now looking over their shoulders.

Whining and stating fact are two completely different things.I'm stating facts here that you don't agree with,so you choose to take the low road and call it whining.

Steve B
 
1)

The NYPD and the FBI,make regular stings and arrests of unlicensed individuals,selling pirated music.That's called copyright infringement and violates copyright laws in the US.

I'm happy to say,music pirates are now going to jail and paying heavy fines.
Steve B

People haven't sold pirated music in decades, it's free.

Music Pirates are going to jail, about 1/100,000 people who illegally download music are though.
 
Then maybe you should tell that to the NYPD/FBI joint task force that locked up a bunch of people recently as well as close down some sweat shops where the CD's were being copied,and packaged.

Decades?Hardly.

Steve B
 
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