Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I was just joking, Larry. Somehow the internet just never really captures the mood we are truly in.

As for my take on all of this, if you listen to some really deep Storyville type of jazz, you notice that the sax players and the horn players have this most soulful and beautiful vibratto or quivering way of expressing their notes. I don't even know if I am explaining that right, but it is a certain quality that I don't really know if there is a term for. I just love listening to them, though. Satch had it. Kenny G does not. Most Kenny G fans aren't even aware of such a musical expression exists and probably could care less. So by him splicing his playing in with Armstrongs, it's like comingling fake pearls with the real thing. Perhaps I am totally wrong on my take about all of this. It's a drummer's take on an instrument I do not even play.
 
True about Louis Armstrong being a fountainhead of jazz. His contributions to jazz and popular music are no small thing. I was just pointing out how his popular stuff was looked down upon by his peers in the jazz world because they thought he could do better.
I'm okay w/ most of what LA's done - jazz or pop, I take it for what it is.
As for KG, I take that for what it is - "elevator music" at best.
 
Jazz afficiandos can be the toughest of critics upon each other that ever walked the earth. I read Metheny's roasting of KG, and while I agree with it in principle, the strict standards (pentatonic vs blues scale, etc) seem a bit overfetched. I think most of the New orleans jazz founders probably would be confused and perplexed at what he was saying. I think alot of those guys wandered back and forth including Louis. I think jazz purists often bind themselves up in their own chains.
 
Jazz afficiandos can be the toughest of critics upon each other that ever walked the earth. I read Metheny's roasting of KG, and while I agree with it in principle, the strict standards (pentatonic vs blues scale, etc) seem a bit overfetched. I think most of the New orleans jazz founders probably would be confused and perplexed at what he was saying. I think alot of those guys wandered back and forth including Louis. I think jazz purists often bind themselves up in their own chains.
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I was just joking, Larry. Somehow the internet just never really captures the mood we are truly in.

Sorry man I feel like such a tool! I actually thought you were dead serious!
Glad I got that wrong ha ha
 
Sorry man I feel like such a tool! I actually thought you were dead serious!
Glad I got that wrong ha ha
Larry, Everyone is a "Tool" on a Jazz thread!
Don't be hard on yourself. LOL!

It's been a while since aydee came up with one of these threads, I laughed hard when I read the IP.
 
And I'm pretty sure that Kenny G got permission from the Armstrong estate to use the recording of "Wonderful World."

Here is the crux of the issue. There is no way KG would have been able to do this without the estate's permission.

So, before talking about Kenny G, we need to look at Satchmo's estate. They could have said no. Or perhaps some people have no respect for Satchmo's family's wishes?

Could it be that Satchmo's descendents were delighted that a modern popular musician would be interested enough in their patriarch and saw it as a way to keep his legacy alive? Or could it be that they rubbed their hands with an evil laugh like Mr Burns and waited for the dollars to roll in? Who knows?

Some of us pretend to know, ascribing cynical motives to KG, his producers etc but in truth they have no clue.

For the record, even someone with a username of Pollyanna but finds Wonderful World to be overly saccharine, with or without KG's noodles. Give me Mack the Knife any day.
 
For the record, even someone with a username of Pollyanna but finds Wonderful World to be overly saccharine, with or without KG's noodles. Give me Mack the Knife any day.
That's what I like most about you Polly, You're just a sweet little girl at heart!
 
Jazz afficiandos can be the toughest of critics upon each other that ever walked the earth. I read Metheny's roasting of KG, and while I agree with it in principle, the strict standards (pentatonic vs blues scale, etc) seem a bit overfetched. I think most of the New orleans jazz founders probably would be confused and perplexed at what he was saying. I think alot of those guys wandered back and forth including Louis. I think jazz purists often bind themselves up in their own chains.

Its all about the music and the musicians who have made serious contributions for some of us folks on the subject of jazz. You can be both liberal, open minded but still have the edit/filter button in place to seperate the truly bad from the truly good in life without being a complete wallflower instead having a firm opinion as far as i'm concerned on the subject at hand. If its crap its crap and has no content that follows a jazz path or conceptual jazz framework/concept laid out in front of it or being based on sorry its not the real "deal". No amount of debate will make it right in my books. KG is just average commercial pop music sax player with a much better slick marketing team and record label behind him...honest truth

Pretty logical, simple and not complicated at all for this jazz musician to follow and understand.

When you want to blur the {musical} waters to accept everything "as is" and on equal ground without question you run into problems having no clue what is going on musically speaking period at the end of the day life has taught me.

You have to have conviction and a true understanding of what your opinions are on what you're standing for both as a listener and player equally alike for success either in the debating arena or on the bandstand or the end product lacks having a real firm backbone {substance} as a result from where I stand.
 
Its all about the music and the musicians who have made serious contributions for some of us folks on the subject of jazz. You can be both liberal, open minded but still have the edit/filter button in place to seperate the truly bad from the truly good in life without being a complete wallflower instead having a firm opinion as far as i'm concerned on the subject at hand. If its crap its crap and has no content that follows a jazz path or conceptual jazz framework/concept laid out in front of it or being based on sorry its not the real "deal". No amount of debate will make it right in my books. KG is just average commercial pop music sax player with a much better slick marketing team and record label behind him...honest truth

Okay, so it's not right in your books. Who ever said that Kenny G is the "real deal" where jazz is concerned? Of course Kenny G's music doesn't "follow a jazz path." That's because the guy doesn't play jazz, for crying out loud. I very much doubt that he's ever claimed to play jazz. He's a bloody pop star. So what? What does it matter to you, this is what I don't understand.

I very much doubt that Kenny G will ever be booked at the Village Vanguard, and I see no way that his music could ever eclipse that of Charles Mingus. Come on, Stan. He's in a whole other universe, so what do you care?
 
Okay, so it's not right in your books. Who ever said that Kenny G is the "real deal" where jazz is concerned? Of course Kenny G's music doesn't "follow a jazz path." That's because the guy doesn't play jazz, for crying out loud. I very much doubt that he's ever claimed to play jazz. He's a bloody pop star. So what? What does it matter to you, this is what I don't understand.

Because Jay his out of tune meandering penatonic pop noodling craps a big one over top of the thing with actual real substance underneath dimishing the original recording to the same level of complete mediocrity for those not knowing the difference unfortunately. Can I be any more clear on that for heaven's sake?

Yes i'm passionate about this kind of horrid disrespect both for the music and the musicians who's blood and trail blazing jazz life experiences went into it in the first place. No winners only loosers right across the board when these endeavors in the name of "music" and usually a quick money occur in my view.

No simple trolling or wallflower behavior here from me in this debate and thoughts on the subject......
 
In Kenny's defense, he wasn't too sure of doing the song to begin with.

The "duet" was produced by David Foster who also recorded the Natalie Cole and Nat King Cole duet. Kenny G stated at the time,"...I didn't want to spoil the original. I said, 'Whatever we do, if we're not going to make it better, let's throw it away and we won't do it.' So (Foster) guaranteed that it would be better, and I hope that we did a good job on it."[18] Some columnists countered the criticisms suggesting such a recording would bring classic jazz to a wider audience.[19] Nevertheless, Kenny G fans considered the live performance of this duet with Armstrong on a video taped backdrop a "show stopper."[20] Some pop critics reviewed the album Classics in the Key of G as possibly his best specifically because of his choice of classic covered songs.[21] Kenny G has stated that all the proceeds from "What A Wonderful World" go to his Kenny G Miracles Foundation which "funnel(s) the money to charities to purchase musical instruments and to supplement funding for the arts in schools."[22]
 
...am I the only one who thinks jazz has an accessibility issue? ...and X isn't a real jazz muso but Y is....on one hand I'm told that jazz is a broad church and on the other, I see rigid boundries set in stone. ...What is jazz? What is "real" jazz? I'd love it if someone could answer that. ...how can anyone state that the material of a certain artist isn't real jazz.[?]

I also hear jazz musos stating that jazz is reducing in popularity. Does the forum think that just might be due to vociferous defence of the pure form coupled with identity confusion?
I think these are exactly the right questions to be asking here. I was thinking along the same lines already before I got to your post, but I'm very glad you beat me to it - because you so eloquently pointed to the thorny crux of the matter. What is jazz, and who get to lay claim to it?

I have my own ideas on this that will keep me up tonight. I may in fact skip the sleep altogether to take a shot at it - won't be the first time this damn forum has done it to me! As many of you already know, I'm not a fan of (most) jazz, but I fully maintain an appreciation for the fine drumming that often accompanies it, so I usually only listen to it in tolerable chunks. This is only to say that I think I am well qualified to give you an outsiders view of what ails it.

In the meantime, would one of you jazz players PLEASE take a stab at it?
 
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In the meantime, would one of you jazz players PLEASE take a stab at it?

Do a search.....i've had my say in fine lucid detail on what I live and believe as a jazz musician as well as what many others offered many times before here on the subject...not going to bother again since its just to much of a real headache and effort to cover yet again.
 
wikipedia......Jazz can be very hard to define because it spans from Ragtime waltzes to 2000s-era fusion. While many attempts have been made to define jazz from points of view outside jazz, such as using European music history or African music, jazz critic Joachim Berendt argues that all such attempts are unsatisfactory.[4] One way to get around the definitional problems is to define the term “jazz” more broadly. Berendt defines jazz as a "form of art music which originated in the United States through the confrontation of blacks with European music"; he argues that jazz differs from European music in that jazz has a "special relationship to time, defined as 'swing'", "a spontaneity and vitality of musical production in which improvisation plays a role"; and "sonority and manner of phrasing which mirror the individuality of the performing jazz musician".[4]


Dictionary.com.....music originating in New Orleans around the beginning of the 20th century and subsequently developing through various increasingly complex styles, generally marked by intricate, propulsive rhythms, polyphonic ensemble playing, improvisatory, virtuosic solos, melodic freedom, and a harmonic idiom ranging from simple diatonicism through chromaticism to atonality.


Reference.com....jazz, the most significant form of musical expression of African-American culture and arguably the most outstanding contribution the United States has made to the art of music.
Origins of Jazz
Jazz developed in the latter part of the 19th cent. from black work songs, field shouts, sorrow songs, hymns, and spirituals whose harmonic, rhythmic, and melodic elements were predominantly African. Because of its spontaneous, emotional, and improvisational character, and because it is basically of black origin and association, jazz has to some extent not been accorded the degree of recognition it deserves. European audiences have often been more receptive to jazz, and thus many American jazz musicians have become expatriates.

At the outset, jazz was slow to win acceptance by the general public, not only because of its cultural origin, but also because it tended to suggest loose morals and low social status. However, jazz gained a wide audience when white orchestras adapted or imitated it, and became legitimate entertainment in the late 1930s when Benny Goodman led racially mixed groups in concerts at Carnegie Hall. Show tunes became common vehicles for performance, and, while the results were exquisite, rhythmic and harmonic developments were impeded until the mid-1940s.
 
Do a search.....i've had my say in fine lucid detail on what I live and believe as a jazz musician as well as what many others offered many times before here on the subject...not going to bother again since its just to much of a real headache and effort to cover yet again.
And you're also the guy who thinks it's okay to serve as your own character witness, I know... ;}
 
And you're also the guy who thinks it's okay to serve as your own character witness, I know... ;}

I live by example not by words, my actions speak for themselves by living and playing the music of which I speak going on neary 37 years now with countless other like minded jazz players in that jazz journey and musical process. This IS the music I play and love.....

Take shots at me all you want...means nothing since I have no agenda or axe to grind or have any trolling behavior to offer into this discussion only standing up for the music I live and love as I just said and those I have deep respect for who came before me and what they brought to the table on the subject of all things jazz.
 
Because Jay his out of tune meandering penatonic pop noodling craps a big one over top of the thing with actual real substance underneath dimishing the original recording to the same level of complete mediocrity for those not knowing the difference unfortunately. Can I be any more clear on that for heaven's sake.

So you're saying that "What A Wonderful World" is what? A great jazz tune? A tune with "real substance?"
 
So you're saying that "What A Wonderful World" is what? A great jazz tune? A tune with "real substance?"

Just what Armstrong himself {the real substance in question} did with it Jay just like many other great jazz players did with popular tunes of the day before and after that makes it a legendary track. The jazz interpretation and the individual jazz "voice" of Armstrong brought the tune to real life.

Not my favorites for jazz tunes for sure but it sure beats the hell out of KG's by a mile take on it over top of the original that's a given for me for any real substance.
 
Just what Armstrong himself {the real substance in question} did with it just like many other great jazz players did with popular tunes of the day before and after that makes it a legendary track. The jazz interpretation and the individual jazz "voice" of Armstrong brought the tune to real life.

Not my favorite for jazz tunes for sure but it sure beats the hell out of KG's take on it over top of the original that's a given for me.

Rubbish. Armstrong didn't even play on it. He was stood in front of a microphone and sang the words on the paper in front of him, didn't you know that? "Jazz interpretation" indeed. "Legendary track." Are you serious?

Louis Armstrong did indeed cut many legendary tracks, but to say that "What A Wonderful World" is one of them is ridiculous.

P.S. The song was first offered to Tony Bennett. He hated it.
 
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