Pop Music in General

well I can say imo... the difference with the police vs many commercial minded musicians is that the police were incredible musicians :)

Kenny G is a superb musican. Michael Bolton is an excellent singer. Now look at the gulf between the pleasure most of us gain from their music as compared with those of The Police.

It can be hard to work out what is success through being appealing to a lot of people ends and success through marketing exposure. If we differ, it could be because I enjoy a lot of commercial music, eg. Madonna, Anastacia, B52s, Coldplay, etc as well as Steely Dan, Captain Beefheart, Uncle Frank, Crimson, Mahavishnu ...

The thing that bugs many of us is that record companies shape people's tastes in the same way as the media shapes people's opinions. It means that too often there's no room at the top for the cream to rise because there are all these cookie-cutter acts pushed by the companies in the way.
 
If we differ, it could be because I enjoy a lot of commercial music, eg. Madonna, Anastacia, B52s, Coldplay, etc as well as Steely Dan, Captain Beefheart, Uncle Frank, Crimson, Mahavishnu ....
Interesting... because it seems like we're arguing the opposite points. You like commercial bands and I don't yet it felt like you were saying that commercialism is bad (maybe i misunderstood) and I was saying it makes sense. :)
The thing that bugs many of us is that record companies shape people's tastes in the same way as the media shapes people's opinions. It means that too often there's no room at the top for the cream to rise because there are all these cookie-cutter acts pushed by the companies in the way.
Point taken. You're right. That is a problem with the industry... there isn't room for the good performers to move up with all the crap at the top based all on image and not at all on talent. So really the problem is more about the music industry's implentation of Pop, not pop (or commercial music) or the artists.
So we've worked out that maybe it isn't the artists fault? and That maybe there's nothing wrong with writing music geared toward an audience or demographic as long as its done well... but maybe its the record companies corruption of the art that causes so much crap to get played.

PS: I heard this band "Hollywood Undead" last night and they seem to be a perfect example of the raprock I was talking about earlier. They're rap artists that teamed up with rock musicians and instrumentation to create a very interesting sound... I am trying to find more examples of this besides the well known bands like 311, linkin park, beastie boys etc. that use rock instrumentations with a hip-hop and rap influence in the vocals. If anyone else knows any good current bands that do this, please let me know... I might be able to get into rockrap or rapcore even if i can't stand rap or hip hop usually. It definatley seems like a great way to bridge the gap between rock fans and rap fans and to give a fresh breath to both genres.
 
LimpingToad said:
You like commercial bands and I don't yet it felt like you were saying that commercialism is bad (maybe i misunderstood) and I was saying it makes sense. :)

Yup, it was a misunderstanding. Sorry 'bout that. I probably got a bit convoluted again :)

I don't know whether you'd call them current, but Rage Against the Machine and the Chilli Peppers come to mind. You also have jazz samples in rap tunes. I don't know of any jazz/rap coming strongly from the jazz angle; it's more rap incorporating jazz than the other way around.

I can see a rap and blues mix working too. Both styles were invented by underprivileged black people. I love the White Stripes's mix of blues, pop and rock - a great sound.

I know this is offtopic but I have to share this video with you. It's one of the funnniest things I've ever seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw5oJoUYTb8. I recommend the other shreds too. The Santana and Nine Inch Nails ones are a hoot too :)
 
Yup, it was a misunderstanding. Sorry 'bout that. I probably got a bit convoluted again :)

I don't know whether you'd call them current, but Rage Against the Machine and the Chilli Peppers come to mind. You also have jazz samples in rap tunes. I don't know of any jazz/rap coming strongly from the jazz angle; it's more rap incorporating jazz than the other way around.

I can see a rap and blues mix working too. Both styles were invented by underprivileged black people. I love the White Stripes's mix of blues, pop and rock - a great sound.

I know this is offtopic but I have to share this video with you. It's one of the funnniest things I've ever seen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw5oJoUYTb8. I recommend the other shreds too. The Santana and Nine Inch Nails ones are a hoot too :)

I'll have to wait to watch it at home.. youtube is blocked at work and my headphones for my phone are busted. Yes.. Rage and Chilli peppers are good examples of rockers pulling influence from rap... what i'm more interested are the bands that are coming out from the other way around where they are rappers who have "converted" to rock. I think that can be more true to the rap stylings. I think one of my big turn-offs from rap are the lousy drum/bass beats so many of them use. which i think is something that we were discussing a couple pages ago as being a problem with hip-hop, rap and modern pop. I think part of that is that my typical style is hard rock... i can play jazz (not extremely well but i can) and i can play other typically lighter styles (soft rock etc.) but what i enjoy is tearing the drums up and rocking out (but not really metal... zep and the who for example). This is something that you don't get to hear in rap. That edgy hard sound is completely lacking as it seems it is mostly a vocal genre.
 
I'll have to wait to watch it at home.. youtube is blocked at work and my headphones for my phone are busted. Yes.. Rage and Chilli peppers are good examples of rockers pulling influence from rap... what i'm more interested are the bands that are coming out from the other way around where they are rappers who have "converted" to rock. I think that can be more true to the rap stylings. I think one of my big turn-offs from rap are the lousy drum/bass beats so many of them use. which i think is something that we were discussing a couple pages ago as being a problem with hip-hop, rap and modern pop. I think part of that is that my typical style is hard rock... i can play jazz (not extremely well but i can) and i can play other typically lighter styles (soft rock etc.) but what i enjoy is tearing the drums up and rocking out (but not really metal... zep and the who for example). This is something that you don't get to hear in rap. That edgy hard sound is completely lacking as it seems it is mostly a vocal genre.

Yes, we can't YouTube either and I forgot it's Friday work for you. It's late here.

Is it the beats that bug you so much or the sounds? The beats are repetitive but the patterns of the loops seem ok to my ear. There might be some of the stuff you're looking underground, maybe like this? (another one for home)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9GMYo2IFJI
 
Yes, we can't YouTube either and I forgot it's Friday work for you. It's late here.

Is it the beats that bug you so much or the sounds? The beats are repetitive but the patterns of the loops seem ok to my ear. There might be some of the stuff you're looking underground, maybe like this? (another one for home)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9GMYo2IFJI

Both the beats and the samples.. i just feel like a lot of them are very immature patterns sequenced by guys used to beat-boxing. And if they are more complex they are usually overly complex.
 
You listen to some of these artists like Jason Mraz or Katy Perry and ask, really what is there not to like. Then you have artists like Alicia Keys, John Legend or John Mayer and they are pretty good song writers. There are some great bands putting out great albums: Radiohead, Muse, Three Doors Down, The Roots. And I even like Coldplay, always did. Used to go see them when they played the clubs. I don't listen to them anymore but it's good pop. You have these prog bands like Dream Theater, Mars Volta and Porcupine Tree that have been putting out quality albums, some for two decades, and are still largely under the radar.

Pop music is a very untalented and crap sounding general style. It is a style based around conformity and making catchy and repetitive lines....to me it sound like crap.

...it's the stuff that The Man and MTV want you to listen to, so someone ends up making loads of money.

And I even like Coldplay
...Those plagiarisers...

Radiohead
...more like experimental rock, and I don't see many pop songs written in 10/4.

...what I like about prog *insert style* acts is that they take some time to make good works and really using their skill and in that production process they make really good sounding music...

an example here, quote of Hagstrom from Meshuggah: "it doesn’t really matter if something is hard to play or not. The thing is, what does it do to your mind when you listen to it? Where does it take you?".

To me, that's what music should be about.
 
Untalented? A lot of it's played by sessioners.
Atleast with drummers most of the time...but still I hate the musical colour of pop music, just terrible.

Maybe 'cause i'm a prog rock/prog metal fan, but hey...I don't think there would be many drummers on drummerworld.com that would enjoy pop music.
 
Atleast with drummers most of the time...but still I hate the musical colour of pop music, just terrible.

Maybe 'cause i'm a prog rock/prog metal fan, but hey...I don't think there would be many drummers on drummerworld.com that would enjoy pop music.

BD, I had all of Crimmo's albums up to 1974 before you were gleam in your father's eye :p

Yet I enjoy lots of pop music. I was mad keen on Sgt Pepper in the late 60s and always enjoyed (at least some of) the sweet melodies on offer. I went through a metal phase (Deep Purple and Black Sabs, which was metal back then) and later discovered blues, RnB, soul, Motown, prog, jazz, fusion, ambience.

I never reject music by genre. I even like some country songs and grew to enjoy classical music in my 40s. I don't judge people by type either - by colour, race, creed, sexuality, politics or whatever. There's interest to be found in all arenas and also boredom IMO
 
I hate pop music, but I'm not saying those who make and play it are untalented. On the contrary, but I really think they should try to be more creative and at least put some soloes in there, so theres alittle individualism. Instead, they spew out the same crap. Godawful leadsynths, analog drums, auto-tune, fruity loops or singer songwrites(with acoustic guitars errrghh) either singing about how much they hate the opposite sex, how much they love them, how much theyre crying or how much money they're making. I mean come on, atleast try to supplement to the music instead of showing your bloated corporate self-image to 1000 of 14 year old boys or girls, who are looking up to you for an image. They should be trying to think independantly or whatever, but no. It's about money, respect and sex appeal. Instant self-gratification. Mass-produced garbage.
I'm not saying all pop-music is bad, but most of it is made just to get money from easily-manipulated people who is after(as i said before) instant gratification and also following the masses on whats the latest fashion and so on.

If the songs got hooks and a good looking vocalists(if you use sex as a selling point, you will sell even more!), you will be famous and pop(ular).

Don't even get me started on indie music. Whats the deal? You can afford a good recording, but you dont want to be good on your instrument and record through a sewage pipe so you can get that "indie-sound"? Give me a break! Pheew.. Glad thats out.

/end rant.
 
I like Pop music. One of my favourite music ever is the pop.
Aussies pop is some of the most horrible shit I have heard.
I like all type of pop Songs.
 
I hate pop music, but I'm not saying those who make and play it are untalented. On the contrary, but I really think they should try to be more creative and at least put some soloes in there, so theres alittle individualism. Instead, they spew out the same crap. Godawful leadsynths, analog drums, auto-tune, fruity loops or singer songwrites(with acoustic guitars errrghh) either singing about how much they hate the opposite sex, how much they love them, how much theyre crying or how much money they're making.
... Don't even get me started on indie music. Whats the deal? You can afford a good recording, but you dont want to be good on your instrument and record through a sewage pipe so you can get that "indie-sound"? Give me a break! Pheew.. Glad thats out.

/end rant.

A fine rant, Thaard. Take a bow. I don't agree, of course. You're talking about the least appealing pop. What about the good songs? Just going through my pop MP3 folder now ....

The Beatles. Fleetwood Mac. Great feel drumming, great vocals. Beach Boys. B52s. Cold Play. Crash Test Dummies. Joe Jackson. Early Steely Dan (fabulous twisted pop). Cindy Lauper. Evermore. Kate Bush. Oasis. Simply Red. The Waterboys. Thomas Dolby. INXS. World Part. XTC.

All have come up with great songs. Ok, I admit it. I'm a sucker for a great melody.

Indie is about rawness. Not everything needs to be spit polished, eh Thaardy old son me lad. Sure, some of it's too raw for me too, but when indie artists get it right, it cran be great. Don Caballero have a raw indie sound and they are a wow band. In Oz we had an indie group called The Hoodoo Gurus in the 80s and they were a rage live and in the studio.

Don't judge the genre, judge the piece.

And Strangelove, surely even you can agree on that. I see no reason why one can't be a Stanley Kubrick-style fan of the fabulously freaky AND enjoy good pop :)

That's Polly's cracker for now
 
A fine rant, Thaard. Take a bow. I don't agree, of course. You're talking about the least appealing pop. What about the good songs? Just going through my pop MP3 folder now ....

The Beatles. Fleetwood Mac. Great feel drumming, great vocals. Beach Boys. B52s. Cold Play. Crash Test Dummies. Joe Jackson. Early Steely Dan (fabulous twisted pop). Cindy Lauper. Evermore. Kate Bush. Oasis. Simply Red. The Waterboys. Thomas Dolby. INXS. World Part. XTC.

All have come up with great songs. Ok, I admit it. I'm a sucker for a great melody.

Indie is about rawness. Not everything needs to be spit polished, eh Thaardy old son me lad. Sure, some of it's too raw for me too, but when indie artists get it right, it cran be great. Don Caballero have a raw indie sound and they are a wow band. In Oz we had an indie group called The Hoodoo Gurus in the 80s and they were a rage live and in the studio.

Don't judge the genre, judge the piece.

And Strangelove, surely even you can agree on that. I see no reason why one can't be a Stanley Kubrick-style fan of the fabulously freaky AND enjoy good pop :)

That's Polly's cracker for now
Thanks for the input. I´m not hating all pop. Pop thats well produced and appeals to a wide specter of listeners gets respect in my book(even if i don´t like the tune).

Sometimes theres a really catchy tune and I will sing with it without even knowing it, and as we´re now nearing christmas, the doom of last christmas is lurking. George Michael and wham in horrible harmony singing about last christmas. I hate that song, but each christmas i find myself humming it. Each time it results in me lying in the shower, crying, and yelling "pleeaase stoopp, nooo!".
Seriously though, people can discuss for ages on what music is best and why. It will still end up with someone being hurt, so I try to steer away. When theres no steering away, I always try to be as objective as possible, but alas it always ends in "oh yea? Well you can stick your 3 chords and butter-vocals where the sun don't shine. It hasn't even got metric modulation or a solo?" Etc etc. Although I like a bit of discussing sometimes.
 
Well you can stick your 3 chords and butter-vocals where the sun don't shine.
That's rock for you!

Seriously, who thought that song should be made only of 3 chords? That shows that creativity was definitely lacking in those dark ages of almost completely guitar-centred rock.

...the only band that can get away with using one fret for a guitar riff can be Meshuggah, because of all those time signatures and poly-rhythms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY-FG-hj7zU

Now how many frets were used in that riff...?

...but hey, it makes relative-pitch deafness sound awesome...it's to me what pop music is to Pollyanna...
 
A few points.

(First off I am a HORRIBLE Musician. Can't write, can't sing, can barely drum.)

-I get very irritated when I hear those idiot DJs on the local pop stations (I don't listen to them I just have freiends with bad taste). Not only do they play the same three crappy songs over and over again (Billboard's#1, #2, and #3) but they actually INTERRUPT the "Music" by vomiting forth their own generic comments. I don't care how great you think Lady Gaga is, you don't need to say so DURING THE "SONG"!

-Modern Punk. What is this crap? Punk is supposed to be driving and ruthless. Take no prisoners. There is nothing punk about "All the Small Things"! Nowadays its just an excuse for shlocky pop bands to only learn 2 chords.

-What is with the single mounted tom being WAY over to the left and angled totally flat. It's completely innaccessible. I know this because I tried it once thinking that it looked cool (Which I have to admit, it kinda does) and it sucked completely. Who would punish themselves like this in the name of style?


Wow that feels good to get off my chest.
 
-What is with the single mounted tom being WAY over to the left and angled totally flat. It's completely innaccessible. I know this because I tried it once thinking that it looked cool (Which I have to admit, it kinda does) and it sucked completely. Who would punish themselves like this in the name of style?

I don't why the hell some "hip" drummers do that, I have tried to do that and from my perspective (sitting on the drum throne ofcourse) the tom profile is so tiny, maybe because the drummers are tall and it's easy for them...but how does that have anything to do with pop music?

-I get very irritated when I hear those idiot DJs on the local pop stations (I don't listen to them I just have freiends with bad taste). Not only do they play the same three crappy songs over and over again (Billboard's#1, #2, and #3) but they actually INTERRUPT the "Music" by vomiting forth their own generic comments. I don't care how great you think Lady Gaga is, you don't need to say so DURING THE "SONG"!

...and those superstar DJs pretend to make their own music:

"Whoa, I'm so awesome, add a drum machine, and put one song over another and it's done"

...and don't get me started on electro music...!
 
I hope you boys all feel better now :)

Why not 3 chords if they sound good, Thaard? Why not two? We wouldn't want to dis Santana, do we? Plenty of two and three chord wonders - and this is a guy who's played with John McLaughlin. Maybe you don't like him but he's a serious talent.
 
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