My rant on today's pop music

Well Ken, at least they were new when you were the right age. I feel slightly embarrassed admitting that I like them because they're so often retrospectively grouped in with bands that I really do not like at all. People then decide to make assumptions about my musical taste - but this is all retrospective. I don't like a lot of music from the 70's - and I like their 60's stuff and 'The Final Cut', so it's not exclusively 70's - but I really do like Pink Floyd. My Dad is a big fan and used to always play them in the car when I was very small. Somewhere he has the cassettes that he used to play. Lots of memories there from being really very, very small.

When I was your age, I would have felt the same way. It is strange to me that there is so much nostalgia for 1970s music among the young. I went to see a NY deejay Eddie Trunk the other day at a book signing and there was a man there with his teenage son. Of course, the first thing he says to me is "the music today is garbage." Like that wasn't predictible; and then regals me about the good old days listening to Alice Cooper, Zeppelin and Kiss while his father yelled to turn the music down. Of course the man is deaf in one ear and 50% in the other. Is there a conncetion? Talk about crap.

Ultimately, I opened up to alot of musis over the years, and learned to hear it and take it for what it is, rather than trying to be overly critical about its aesthitic value. But I have met quite a few peole who claim that life is short and ask why listen to anything but great music? As a music and a historican I try to listen to as much music as possible from an historcal perspective. Other than that, why listen to anything that doesn't float your boat.
 
I don't think it's an aesthetic thing. I think it's because of the 'me too' saturation factor as much as anything else. The first time I really heard Led Zeppelin, I was fourteen. I loved it, I thought it was great. I listened to them intermittently for years and then it reached a critical mass when I realised that it was like wallpaper. It was everywhere, all the time and I couldn't get away from it. That really frustrated me and put me right off them for a while. Now, I can appreciate it - but I don't enjoy it viscerally like I used to. That's got as much to do with the 'me too' attitude of a lot of crap bands ever since (once again, I reference Wolfmother) and the fact that it's lauded over ad nauseam.

It doesn't make them a bad band - it just makes them overexposed. And that really kills a lot of music for me.
 
Of course, the first thing he says to me is "the music today is garbage." Like that wasn't predictible; and then regals me about the good old days listening to Alice Cooper, Zeppelin and Kiss while his father yelled to turn the music down. Of course the man is deaf in one ear and 50% in the other. Is there a conncetion? Talk about crap..

I never got the Kiss thing.

Somehow in the 70's, I was just a hair too young. Some older kids had the comic and the action figure, so I equated them as characters, and it wasn't until later I realized there was music behind it all.

When I got to PIT, I was surrounded by people who all said they were originally inspired to pick up an instrument by Kiss. So I would go the school's video library and watch Kiss videos for hours, trying to figure out what I missing. I still didn't get it. Peter is a bit sloppy. Gene isn't locking with the drums, and the rhythm guitar isn't locking in with anyone. huh?

So yeah, if someone says music isn't as good as it used to be, and uses Kiss as a reference point, I just have to groan.

Still, I have friends who just worship that band. To each his own I guess.

Led Zeppelin,

It doesn't make them a bad band - it just makes them overexposed. And that really kills a lot of music for me.

I like Zep, but I don't feel inspired to own their albums, because they're always on the radio. The hits, the b-sides, the rarities, my local classic rock radio stations play it all on a regular basis.
 
1) There wasn't a lot of traditional singing going on here. It was a combination of talking, shouting back and forth, and chanting (usually ad nauseum).

2) All the vocals were heavily modified using echo, compression and whatever that program is that they use to modulate and alter the tone (Cher used it on Do You Believe in Love). The "computerized" voices grated on me after about 2 minutes.

3) The songs had no real structure to them. There was no intro, verse, chorus, middle eight, chorus, out, etc. Seemed like the repitiion goes on until the engineer decides to fade out the end of the song. I imagine this is because the primary reason for these songs is to dance to in a club or a party. The way we danced in the 70's/80's bears no resemblance to how you would dance to this music.

4) Out of about 20 songs, I only found one that sounded like it had real drums in it. The rest had clicks, snaps, and real loud bass booms that kept the beat. Some synthesizers (sampling, no doubt), no piano, no guitar.

1. Correct. Like all those great nursery rhymes we learned when we were kids. Add some sports crowd chanting, and you're pretty much on track.

2. Auto-Tune. It makes the hairs on my neck stand on end. The thought going through my head when I hear an artist with Auto-Tune is: are they going for the effect, or is that "singer" so off, they're just there because they can then market the music to tween boys/girls?

3. The form of hip-hop songs these days is thus:

the chorus, or these days called "the hook" followed by a "verse"
then the hook again, then another verse
then the hook, then another verse, or some cases a bridge
then the hook, usually twice, and fade usually, so the DJ can beat cut one tempo into the next as a seamless transition

4. Correct. And if it's not synthesized drums, it's "sound replacement." Basically you can take, for ex. Steve Gadd hitting a drum once. Then a different drum. Then a snare. Take all of those samples and arrange them electronically. Voila! You have Steve Gadd on your track, and he never physically played one note of your song. And you did not have to pay him triple scale to play the session. In addition to Gadd, I believe there is Vinnie, JR Robinson, Russ MIller, Chad Wackerman sound replacement kits. Sound samples with these drummers just playing drums and some grooves, and insert to your hearts content.

Sounds kinda scary, doesn't it?
 
Simply put, today's pop music has no soul.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's al about sex and drinking, and if not that, it appeals to teenagers because if it isn't sex or clubbing or drinking, it's "love". LOVE DOES NOT EXIST WHEN YOU ARE 14 YEARS OLD. YOU CANNOT LOVE SOMEONE AFTER DATING THEM FOR 3 WEEKS. I'm so sick of seeing sophomores and Juniors in high school getting engaged after only knowing each other for one month. No wonder my generation of women is so clingy, obsessive and annoying.

/rant
 
I can remember in middle school my older brother and his three friends dressing up as KISS for Halloween. I didn't really understand what it was all about, since I was only about 12 or 13. I never did really understand the draw of KISS, although they did have a few catchy songs..

I went through a period in high school/college where I was really into Zep. But I eventually burned out from them, and got sick of hearing them everywhere. Nowadays I do still appreciate them, but mostly their less common stuff. Just today I hear Whole Lotta Love on the radio and had to turn the station. I can't stand to listen to Stairway for the 10,000th time. I do still like listening to songs like Good Times, Bad Times.
 
I don't think it's an aesthetic thing. I think it's because of the 'me too' saturation factor as much as anything else. The first time I really heard Led Zeppelin, I was fourteen. I loved it, I thought it was great. I listened to them intermittently for years and then it reached a critical mass when I realised that it was like wallpaper. It was everywhere, all the time and I couldn't get away from it. That really frustrated me and put me right off them for a while. Now, I can appreciate it - but I don't enjoy it viscerally like I used to. That's got as much to do with the 'me too' attitude of a lot of crap bands ever since (once again, I reference Wolfmother) and the fact that it's lauded over ad nauseam.

It doesn't make them a bad band - it just makes them overexposed. And that really kills a lot of music for me.

Me too. If I listen to any Zep today (which is not too often), it's songs like In The Light, No Quarter, Tangerine, Out on the Tiles, In My Time of Dying and others that were never played over ad nauseum on the radio. In Texas, back in the 1960s and early 1970s we actually got underground radio from Mexico that played complete albums and very cutting edge artists that were never played on pop stations in the states. They called it outlaw radio like what Jim Morrison sang about, but soon the radios in the states caught on and started what they called "album rock". Many of them mimicked the outlaw stations and played very cutting edge music. One I used to listen to played Kraftwerk's Autobahn album regularly back in 1975, which was unusual - a German language album broadcast in the cactus and mesquites of South Texas, lol. But it was these stations that developed cult followings that the old time producers never understood, and like Zappa said in his interview that was up earlier in this thread, a bunch of younger hippie generation so called experts took the management of these stations over and they started playing a lot of singles off of what used to be an entire album. This was when I recall hearing a lot of Zeppelin (Black Dog, Rock and Roll, etc) getting played over and over again. But this was when it seemed that a lot of what were album artists like Zep, Pink Floyd, ELP, Clapton in all of his forms, Jethro Tull, etc literally started to saturate the rock market and transformed from being innovative artists to pop artists. Queen went into that movement head first, and they went from rock anthems like Great King Rat, Keep Yourself Alive, and Liar to pop songs like We Are The Champions and Fat Bottomed Girls. Artists like the Rolling Stones and Elton John were always content being on Pop radio, but these guys were literally dragged into it, as those album rock stations evolved into pop stations. KISS came along at the end of the arena rock era, like Pete Frampton, and I always kind of considered them the forefathers of the Big Hair Rock era.
 
When I was your age, I would have felt the same way. It is strange to me that there is so much nostalgia for 1970s music among the young.

It begs the question as to whether there are qualities of music that are universal rather than culturally subjective. Personally, I think there are.

Sometimes the cultural differences can be a bridge too far, but a great sound is still a great sound and I'm sure a beautifully played groove can be recognised by most of us here, no matter what flavour. When music is played with passion, honesty and soul it is, as the cliche goes, the universal language. Those who don't really care for music, like my father, will only enjoy the music of their youth and detest everything since, but music lovers tend to span a pretty wide range.

Perhaps some young 'uns who have mostly been exposed to soulless business-minded pop find that some of their parents' records hit the spot more than what they hear on the radio? My 19 yo nephew doesn't care for old music, but he loves Pink Floyd.
 
Why single out today's pop music? Go look at the chart for any week in the past few decades and most tunes in it will be utterly awful
 
i don't care if i get flamed for this. pop music is garbage , nuff said.

if you disagree then watch rebecca blacks video called "friday"

Joey hit the nail on the head, perhaps a more refined 'modern pop music is garbage' would have been better but I wholeheartedly agree.
 
Today's pop scene is a lot more savvy - the producers have the formulas of success worked out to a fine art.

Surely you jest. I think they have it worked out more like a fine trainwreck. The music is horrible, there are but a handful of talented vocalists, and the melody and ryhthm parts sound like they were programmed by a K-12 student. Do we call this progress? No wonder so many kids (mine included) are into the late 60s and 70s music.
 
As far as I know there is no "fine art" to success. At no point in recorded history has this been true. Ry Cooder had no idea his Buenna Vista project would pay off. Nor did many motion picture producers know their endeavours would flop, or make it.

The formula for success. What a product that would be!

It has never, and will never exist.
 
Pretty young person
Dance moves
Autotune
Groovy drum machine
Rapping
The Hook

How does that apply the Ry Cooder's project?

There is no recipe for success. The trend in today's pop scene, whether it music or film, is for "pretty young things", but for every success there are thousands of losers.

Any formula for success that could be sold would be worth billions. It has yet to show itself. And dare I say with an eye to history, it never will.
 
It begs the question as to whether there are qualities of music that are universal rather than culturally subjective. Personally, I think there are.

Sometimes the cultural differences can be a bridge too far, but a great sound is still a great sound and I'm sure a beautifully played groove can be recognized by most of us here, no matter what flavour. When music is played with passion, honesty and soul it is, as the cliche goes, the universal language. Those who don't really care for music, like my father, will only enjoy the music of their youth and detest everything since, but music lovers tend to span a pretty wide range.

Perhaps some young 'uns who have mostly been exposed to soulless business-minded pop find that some of their parents' records hit the spot more than what they hear on the radio? My 19 yo nephew doesn't care for old music, but he loves Pink Floyd.

In the 1970s, there was a lot of 1950s nostalgia that came in the form of of punk and new wave but even bigger artists like Meatloaf, Bruce Springsteen and then came the jump blues and rockabilly of Rockpile, Stray Cats, Joe Jackson and The Smiths. But as compared to the more innovative music of Crimson, Yes, Steely Dan or Floyd, it all seemed a bit tired though by many it was considered real rock n roll. Crimson, ELP or Yes weren't. Maybe it was the more well produced or electronic sounds over the raw sound of early rock and roll that I enjoyed. On CD it's a whole different story and you can even understand the words in those earlier songs. I always did have a thing for Jump Blues artists like Stray Cats and Joe Jackson. Stray Cats are from my hometown and Joe Jackson was always great.


It's just that there is some good pop out there for teenagers to listen too. is someone really going to laud Kiss and say Avenged Sevenfold is okay but doesn't have good songs? (Yes, Ian, he said that.) there are so many melodic metal bands like Disturbed, After Forever, Within Temptation, a lot of them from N. Europe, that's where it 's happening. There are many of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVrU2MVAWBU&feature=related

As Bermuda stated, it's about the songs, and whether at the end of the day the songs are any good.There are still good song writers around like John Mayer, Ryan Adams or Josh Ritter, Gavin MacGraw. Some of those reference might be a bit outdated; but I bet that a lot of the older folks haven't listened to them any way. I remember there was a kid on her a while back and the older guys made fun of him for liking Jason Mraz. Whose the idiot?

Then there was the whole resurgence of progressive rock in the early 2000s with Tool, Spock's Beard and Flower Kings. Are people ware that these things are happening or have happened?
 
I think there are many fine works of art that were bypassed by the wider public. How many people today listen to Madona but have never read Sophocles?

To base a value upon artistic merit based solely on public appetite is, in a word, base.

Popular culture often is not based in a so called "value". Often it can be viewed as a herd movement based in access to the so called artistic work.
 
I have to admit that the 90's were a musical black hole for me, especially in terms of rock n roll.

In the 1970s, there was a lot of 1950s nostalgia that came in the form of of punk and new wave

And in the 80's, there was a big interest in 60's music. Into the 90's, we suddenly saw everything about the 70's be cool again.

And 80's music just continues to be considered cool.
I'm always amazed how many people who were too young or not born yet to have experienced the 80's, yet know every band and every song that was popular back then. And in the last 10 years, we've seen a lot of band who fully embraced and reproduced the 80's new wave vibe see success. As much cheese as their was in the 80's, it seems to be a golden era of music to so many people.

And lately, I've even noticed the high school kids wearing 80's type clothing.

I recall in the 90's, listening to grunge take over the radio, and thinking, yeah, but in 10-20 years, will be look back on this fondly with the same sense of nostalgia people give to the 50-80s? I didn't think so.

To an extent, I've been proven right and proven wrong. VH-1 did an "all 90's weekend" this past weekend, and there are numerous cover bands that focus on the 90's. But at the same time, one local radio station did an all 80's weekend this past weekend, and it seems all 80's features on the radio are way more common. 80's cover bands seem to be more abundant than 90's focused bands.

And despite this past weekends look at the 90's, it does seem the vast majority of programing on vh-1 and vh-1 classic is focussed on the 70s and 80s.

I just don't see teenagers looking at back at the 90's and thinking " yeah, it was so much cooler then, when everyone wore flannel and did heroin"

But perhaps that is all just my biased opinion.


. is someone really going to laud Kiss and say Avenged Sevenfold is okay but doesn't have good songs? (Yes, Ian, he said that.)
Eh, well, I think Avenged Sevenfold only really has one good album. I own a bunch of them, but there is only one I like.


there are so many melodic metal bands like Disturbed, After Forever, Within Temptation, a lot of them from N. Europe, that's where it 's happening. There are many of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVrU2MVAWBU&feature=related
Yes, as I have said in numerous threads, 99% of the albums I've bought in the last few years have been from European bands who have little to no following in the US.



Then there was the whole resurgence of progressive rock in the early 2000s with Tool, Spock's Beard and Flower Kings. Are people ware that these things are happening or have happened?

I think that had more to do with the internet than anything. Tool was already popular. The rest were there, but the net gave them an outlet.

In the 90's Dream Theater really embraced the internet. Back in the days when most people only had AOL, you could go to the Dream Theater AOL board, and Mike Porntoy and then keyboardist Derek Sheridian would actually post and reply to posts from fans, as well as Mike's sister and their ex-vocalist. They helped build a huge network of online prog fans. A lot of prog musicians said wow, I can actually do this music and find an audience now. Where as before they would have limited to just playing in their living rooms.

But still, it's not like those prog bands sell millions (Tool being the exception). Most of them just get by.
 
KC and the Sunshine Band was a pop hit machine back in the late 70s. Three Dog Night was the same in the early 70s. Hall & Oates was the same in the late 70s/early 80s. I try to listen to their songs objectively to see how they compare to the pop hits made over the last 5 years.

There isn't a whole lot to compare, although KC's formula for success consisted of a very simple song structure, lots of repetition, a few horns, and a danceable groove. I'd still rather listen to a song like Boogie Shoes than most of today's pop songs.
 
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