Girl drummers

JasperGTR;1099283 I said:
Pretty narrow. I'd suggest you:
get out of your basement,
read some books,
expand your personal observations,
GET some evidence, and increase your sample size, and reduce your BIAS

before you make any assertions on this topic. Everything you are saying is subjective.
 
This idea of 'inherent gender characteristics' is an interesting one, to say the least.

Count me in as one of the 'nurture' crowd. I'm sure there are some inherent female characteristics beyond the obvious physical differences but in all honesty, in the field of drumming, I think it makes very little difference. I've had the pleasure of meeting a few great female drummers (Michele, if you're reading) who are as good as if not better than almost any professional male drummer you care to mention.

Quite simply, I don't see what the point of defining drummers by their gender is. Likewise, with any other instrument. I've met male flautists, male violinists, female contrabassoonists, male cornet players, female sousaphone players, female double-bassists, female orchestral percussionists and any array of other instrumentalists. I've never once bothered to even consider their gender in relation to their playing, it's just not relevant.

With the drums, there is certainly a history of male players dominating the instrument but that has nothing to do with any inherent 'female' characteristics and everything to do with stereotyping and the opportunities available to female players (very limited) in the early days of the instrument. Most of the early Jazz ensembles were male-dominated in all rôles - why that is I have little idea - but there was a novelty of any female players in some of the early Big Bands. Now, taken that the drums were originally derived from Big Bands then historically there is certainly a male lineage of great drummers - from Big Sid Catlett, to Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich then into the smaller bands like Elvin Jones, Tony Williams, Jack DeJohnette and then into Popular bands like The Beatles and The Who - all of which were in male-dominated groups. That's historical and has no bearing on the 'inherent' characteristics of the instrument.

If anybody wants to spout out the 'aggression' 'strength' and 'speed' arguments, I'm afraid you're just wrong. You do not have to be aggressive to play the drums, you do not need to be physically strong (though I know plenty of women that are both) and the athletic abilities of women in general are no different in terms of speed - the only obvious differences being in high-class athletics that represent 0.1% of the exceptional population.

If you want to hear tasteful, strong, aggressive, agile drumming I'll take Susie Ibarra over any dozens of male equivalents any day and that has nothing to do with her gender. Just her ability and expressive nuance.

So why bother making these comparisons at all? It's like telling somebody in advertising that they're good at their job 'for a girl'. If anybody said that in a workplace I were in charge of, they'd be in a meeting with me in a femtosecond, explaining why they expect the standard of women to be lower. So why say it for female drummers? They're a drummer that happens to have female reproductive organs - so what?!
 
Can we see a video of you playing?
I'm nothing special, I assure you.

And that's not the case with the majority of all drummers, regardless of gender? How about you?



Right, you're just an impartial observer. “Regrettably, those seem to be the facts...”

What motivated you to resurrect this dead thread? The spirit of scientific inquiry?
I've stated, this is based on my personal observations only. And I agree that this observation is across genders (regarding limiting one's self). We see this among almost all talents and venues (whether music, sports, science, etc...).

I don't believe you took my comments entirely in their intended context.

The reason this appears to be resurrected is twofold - #1 I haven't checked back here in a while, and #2 if I stated my opinion after reading the other posts on a new thread, it would just be cross-linked anyway, so this just clears up the unnecessary steps.

I've seen other girl drummers, but they all seem limited, almost as if they quit learning - almost saying,"this is as much as I need to develop - and now I'm done."


Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait. QUOTE]

Well crap! Not only am I destined to be a failure with my limited abilities, but I'm masculine as well! Guess I better turn in my sticks now! :p

(P.S. - I hope this isn't the same logic you use to encourage your daughter!)
It appears as though you are offended by my comments. I cannot discuss this path, because I do not see it this way. I have no idea how one can take - "I haven't seen it" and turn that around to "It is impossible, so you shouldn't try".

Interestingly enough - I firmly believe that I am not the only one making these observations, but those who agree are usually not willing to take an un-PC approach to real life experiences.

So, for people who believe that female drummers are a common sighting, please share with me your experiences. Even female drummers here - are other female drummers common with you?

To me, Cindy Blackman is an anomaly. One of rare talent, combined with artistic and emotional ability, regardless of gender. And I have not even discussed her ability, because, to me, they can mutually exclusive, and . One can be a GREAT drummer, with little ability. Because there are many types of music, just as there are many types of drummers and styles.
 
Pretty narrow. I'd suggest you:
get out of your basement,
read some books,
expand your personal observations,
GET some evidence, and increase your sample size, and reduce your BIAS

before you make any assertions on this topic. Everything you are saying is subjective.
I've already conceded this with my earlier posts. In fact, I think I pretty much opened with this. I don't disagree with you (except for the book reading thing - I don't see how this would help me see better drumming). I have every right to make assertions based on my present observations. And I'm here to learn as well.

If someone approaches you and says,"Regarding this topic, I don't agree."

Do you respond and say,"Well you're wrong."

Or like another poster,"Well, I should just quit then (sarcastically)."

To me, it doesn't help anyone. The videos that were posted reminded me of what I already knew to be true, that there are amazing drummers out there, of both genders. I just haven't seen it. To be fair, maybe my expectations are too high in general.


...
So why bother making these comparisons at all? It's like telling somebody in advertising that they're good at their job 'for a girl'. If anybody said that in a workplace I were in charge of, they'd be in a meeting with me in a femtosecond, explaining why they expect the standard of women to be lower. So why say it for female drummers? They're a drummer that happens to have female reproductive organs - so what?!
This was actually my original position. Why post "female drummer"? Why not "drummer"?

I believe for females to be taken the same way in a seemingly male-dominated arena, drop the moniker.

I'm perfectly content with watching any drummer, regardless of gender. Once that person has been self-described as either 'male' or 'female', you've categorized yourself, and I shall put you in the self-labelled container that was requested.
 
If you have no doubt there's some outstanding, talented female drummers out there,why did you post such sexist comments? It doesn't make sense...

This forum include several female drummers, some of which are extremely talented, do you really have to see them before your eyes to acknowledge their talent?

Female drummers are a minority in the drumming world, for sure, but they are as good and bad as any male drummers, to assume that a gender defines "good" or "bad" is utterly ridiculous, in drumming or any other instruments

(Almost missed this one at the bottom of the previous page - my apologies)

Because the women who post - 'female' drummer, to me, are suggesting that there is a different category, and are initially launching a sexist platform to be judged, as if it is a separate starting point (like the women's tee in golf).

And my comments may appear sexist, because sometimes - in real life - it works out that way. I don't always agree with it, doesn't make it not a reality. Life isn't as politically correct as we all wish.
 
Jasper,

Your "drumming is inherently masculine" angle is way off the beam, you might like to check out the book "When the Drummers Were Women: A Spiritual History of Rhythm".

The reason why not so many women play drums drum is a traditional stereotype based on patriarchal suppression. In short, it would read "Men are strong, women are weak. Drumming is a robust activity and it is unfitting of a lady to do such an activity". I have spoken with many women who have expressed a wish to play drums, but they say they "can't". What they mean is they are afraid of being judged as masculine.

Do you see a lot of men playing the harp? Genetic predisposition? I wonder how many guys don't do dancing when they are young because it's perceived as feminine in the world of brain-dead jocks?

Meanwhile, fundamentalist Islamists will tell you that women are unsuited to being educated because we are unable to reason logically. Some nice irony there, no?
 
We already did, X. I'd never seen an orchestra on TV with a featured male harpist. You let me know that any stereotype derived from that observation would be invalid. Problem solved.

I won't defend my initial observation (which is completely compatible with your reply) by speculating that men are less genetically predisposed to the qualities needed to play harp ...
 
I could post these all day....but this should get the point across
Anthony, I just visited this thread after avoiding it for obvious reasons, and the examples you posted are superb (isn't Hilary just wonderful :)), but there's a ton of female drummers out there who don't play in heels, don't hit the headlines, & don't play the "cute" card. Just bloody good & humble hard working drummers facing the same challenges as we all do. They're all our drumming brothers!

Just to add to our list: http://youtu.be/-FZQuLQuZG0?hd=1
 
Anthony, I just visited this thread after avoiding it for obvious reasons, and the examples you posted are superb (isn't Hilary just wonderful :)), but there's a ton of female drummers out there who don't play in heels, don't hit the headlines, & don't play the "cute" card. Just bloody good & humble hard working drummers facing the same challenges as we all do. They're all our drumming brothers!

Just to add to our list: http://youtu.be/-FZQuLQuZG0?hd=1

Rock solid jam session going on there, excellent drumming. That said, OMG! super sweet drums. My first time checking out Guru and all I can say is no EQ on that mix? Thats a beautiful sounding kit.
 
Male vs. Female drummer hasn't ever occurred to me.
When I started in 1975, there was a girl in the drum section. She was good too.
When I got into high school, there were 4 or 5 girls in the drum line who were all good drummers.
I had 2 or 3 different drum instructors that were female over a few summers.
My first girlfriend was a drummer, but she didn't play after high school.

One thing I noticed in the recent DRUM! issue of 200 Greatest...
They listed that Viola Smith was billed as the FIRST "Female Drummer" because she was in a Gretsch ad in 1939, and in a movie.

Not to disparage her accomplishments, but.....
Pffffffffffffttttttttttttttttt!! I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different "All female" groups. She had "billing" in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.

Cindy Blackman is one of my favorite drummers. She's very nice too.
 
Rock solid jam session going on there, excellent drumming. That said, OMG! super sweet drums. My first time checking out Guru and all I can say is no EQ on that mix? Thats a beautiful sounding kit.
On behalf of Michele, thank you:) & thanks for your kind words on the kit too. First half of the video is 3 mic's only, second half is with close mic's too.


One thing I noticed in the recent DRUM! issue of 200 Greatest...
They listed that Viola Smith was billed as the FIRST "Female Drummer" because she was in a Gretsch ad in 1939, and in a movie.

Not to disparage her accomplishments, but.....
Pffffffffffffttttttttttttttttt!! I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different "All female" groups. She had "billing" in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.
Wow, now that's something very special :)
 
I have a scrap book of my Grandmother in 1925-1926 during her touring days in 2 different "All female" groups. She had "billing" in the adverts as well. That's the ONE scrapbook I have--my relatives have all the other stuff.

Karl, was she to the best of your knowledge the first women drumkit drummer?
 
Jasper,

Your "drumming is inherently masculine" angle is way off the beam, you might like to check out the book "When the Drummers Were Women: A Spiritual History of Rhythm".

The reason why not so many women play drums drum is a traditional stereotype based on patriarchal suppression. In short, it would read "Men are strong, women are weak. Drumming is a robust activity and it is unfitting of a lady to do such an activity". I have spoken with many women who have expressed a wish to play drums, but they say they "can't". What they mean is they are afraid of being judged as masculine.

Do you see a lot of men playing the harp? Genetic predisposition? I wonder how many guys don't do dancing when they are young because it's perceived as feminine in the world of brain-dead jocks?

Meanwhile, fundamentalist Islamists will tell you that women are unsuited to being educated because we are unable to reason logically. Some nice irony there, no?
I simply stated PERHAPS it is a masculine trait. I personally don't feel that there is any actual testing of genetic predispositions for various instruments. I was just merely speculating.

The mere fact that we all enrolled on this website, is a testament to the devotion some of us have towards our instrument, willing to share our knowledge and experience with others for the benefit of the community. I honestly do not feel anything I've said (or posted) will change anybody's opinion of themselves.

There were plenty of female drummers back in my school days, and in the drumlines I've marched with. I've played along side many female drummers. Like I said, I didn't just come up with my observations out of thin air. I didn't put females in certain chair sequences, or judge their ability. I simply watched what happened. I encourage all musicians to pursue their goals.

In fact, I'd like to help change my perception, along with those people who see the same things I do. But - my issue with that is self-conflicting. How does one encourage females to do something, without being sexist in the first place?
 
I simply stated PERHAPS it is a masculine trait. I personally don't feel that there is any actual testing of genetic predispositions for various instruments. I was just merely speculating.

Oh well, then your speculation was questionable. In matters of skill I think you will find far greater difference within genders than between them.

Males tend to have more fast-twitch fibres in their muscles so that may be your angle, but I don't equate speed with quality as a musician and but some people seem to think the acrobatic component of music is paramount (I see speed as one of the least important things in drumming, except in a few genres and subgenres).


There were plenty of female drummers back in my school days, and in the drumlines I've marched with. I've played along side many female drummers. Like I said, I didn't just come up with my observations out of thin air. I didn't put females in certain chair sequences, or judge their ability. I simply watched what happened. I encourage all musicians to pursue their goals.

In fact, I'd like to help change my perception, along with those people who see the same things I do. But - my issue with that is self-conflicting. How does one encourage females to do something, without being sexist in the first place?

Happy to help you change your perception.

You have based your speculation on 3.5 billion people on a handful of girls in your old school - a particular place in a particular time with a particular culture with a particular availability of role models with particular instructors and the girls had their individual family situations, who will have attitudes about women on drums (as opposed to girls on drums - a lot of girls quit sports prematurely too).

Add society's stereotypical views about gender and drummers and you have far too many qualifying and mitigating factors to allow for valid speculation about comparative physiological aptitude.
 
Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as "girl drummers"? We don't say "boy drummer" although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much.
 
Back
Top