The "versatility" of gear

caddywumpus

caddywumpus

Archnemesis of Larryace
Is gear really versatile or not?

On this forum, people ask/talk about a particular cymbal/snare/kit, and the question/discussion of its versatility often enters the conversation at some point. I've done some thinking about this for some time, and my question is, "What exactly does it mean for something to be versatile?" Is X pair of hats really better suited for jazz or rock than Y pair? Or, is there a certain pair out there that covers the gamut over all genres? And, what is it about them that makes it so? Plus, does anyone in the audience, or the rest of the band/ensemble, even really care?

When someone comments on a snare and says, "Man, this snare is great for rock, jazz, funk, etc...", part of me says, "Well, what snare ISN'T?" It's a freakin' snare! Obviously, there are sounds more pleasing to some peoples' ears, and those same sounds aren't quite as attractive to others' senses. I'm not talking about personal preference of sound characteristics, but rather defining a genre of music by a set of overtones set off by only certain models of instruments.

Since music and gear preference are such subjective and expressive things, can we really discount some piece of drum equipment as "not being suitable for (insert genre here)!". Are we all just playing some silly imagined game when we do this?

I'm not looking for gear plugs AT ALL, by the way, but WHY we talk about gear in this way, and is it really even necessary???

I would love to hear everyones' thoughts on this...
 
Well, no, some gear is not versatile. My 18" bass drum wouldn't cut it for heavy metal. My ride cymbal is very versatile though, I think it could be great for any type of music, I just happen to use it to play jazz. My snare drum, I don't know. Probably not loud enough for rock music. My 13" K hats? I don't know. My crash cymbal, I think a metal drummer would break it on the first song.
Yes, I do think that some drums and cymbals are better suited for some kinds of music. Isn't that why there are so many to choose from?
I wouldn't want a 22" bass drum, for example. It wouldn't be right for the music I play.
 
jay norem said:
Well, no, some gear is not versatile. My 18" bass drum wouldn't cut it for heavy metal.........
Yes, I do think that some drums and cymbals are better suited for some kinds of music. Isn't that why there are so many to choose from?
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I have heard many 18" bass drums in my travels. Tuned right and miked through a PA system, a lot of them have the cajones for metal music. Punchy, thick, resonant and big-sounding.

Wait! What did I just type? Isn't this last paragraph exactly what I was referring to? See, even I do it. I just pigeon-holed a genre and a certain bass drum sound as being linked. Sheesh! Why isn't an 18" bass drum ideal for ANY genre? It's a representation of a bass drum on a drum kit...

I'm starting to think that there are so many sizes of bass drums and genre-specific, or even non-genre-specific (i.e. "versatile") drums and cymbals because we're being fed a huge marketing (and even cultural, within the drumming world) pile of balogna.

Why would someone, for example, say, "I use such-and-such snare for my rock gigs, but I'd never use it for a jazz gig. I have this snare for that..." Why NOT use the jazz snare for rock? It's a snare for crying out loud! Or, how can one person claim that, and then turn around and find a snare that, according to them, "works for both"?

Maybe I'll read this thread tomorrow and say to myself, "What was I thinking?". More thoughts???........
 
Sound is a very subjective thing first off. What "sounds" you are after are strictly based on a set of personal parameters based on many factors related to the live performance and also the recording of music in the studio. Drums can be altered by head selection and tuning easily enough in most cases unless the sizes or particular character of the drums don't match up for certain different types of musical settings they are needed for. Cymbals are a completely different animal altogether IMO and are best selected more carefully individually for the musical choice of setting and sound/blend with other instruments requirements to be used in since they can't be "tuned" for the music so to speak by the owner.

As far a versatility even in a situation like mine playing acoustic jazz my musical instrument "toolbox" is well equiped for a wide selection of needs for different types of players, instruments and playing situations, rooms etc.. both live and in the studio that cross my path. I just make the selection from the toolbox for each job at hand on a individual bases for what "sounds" are best for the situation.

Reminds me of studio guys I know who are very specific about having a wide selection of snares in particular to choose from for different types of sessions and studio recording projects. Sometimes they show up with 5 or more snares till they hear just the right sound for the artist/project/jingle etc.. at hand well listening and checking the playbacks to zero in on the best fit for each job.
 
I agree with you, Caddy.....mostly.

I've played many many kits over my playing years. These days I play smallish sized maple drums with fast crashes and jazzy rides, but I can also get on to most gigging kits and make them work for me without too much heartburn.

But I have to tell you about a drummer friend of mine who plays for a big rock act. At his home, he has set up a massive 14 piece Tama Starclassic (birch), with the wierdest, heaviest, clangiest Paiste cymbals I've ever heard.

Recently at a small party at his house, he asked me to have a go at his kit... and I have never ever felt more ill at ease on a drum kit!

I couldn't play it.. it made strange sounds, the drums, the cymbals..the heads, the sticks.. Some things we too loud, some too dead, some I had to hit hard some I could play soft even if I wanted to...I felt I was in a very very strange place....

SO yeah, to answer your question, we go way overboard on buying into product sales pitches of the manufacturers, but man,,, is there's a lot of stuff out there ( and Its all on Richard's kit ; ), that would never work for me.
 
caddywumpus said:
I have heard many 18" bass drums in my travels. Tuned right and miked through a PA system, a lot of them have the cajones for metal music. Punchy, thick, resonant and big-sounding.

Wait! What did I just type? Isn't this last paragraph exactly what I was referring to? See, even I do it. I just pigeon-holed a genre and a certain bass drum sound as being linked. Sheesh! Why isn't an 18" bass drum ideal for ANY genre? It's a representation of a bass drum on a drum kit...

I'm starting to think that there are so many sizes of bass drums and genre-specific, or even non-genre-specific (i.e. "versatile") drums and cymbals because we're being fed a huge marketing (and even cultural, within the drumming world) pile of balogna.

Why would someone, for example, say, "I use such-and-such snare for my rock gigs, but I'd never use it for a jazz gig. I have this snare for that..." Why NOT use the jazz snare for rock? It's a snare for crying out loud! Or, how can one person claim that, and then turn around and find a snare that, according to them, "works for both"?

Maybe I'll read this thread tomorrow and say to myself, "What was I thinking?". More thoughts???........
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Especially with a mic! With a mic, an 18" kick can = 26" kick. I agree with the principal.

You can use a BOP kit for any genre, especially with today's electronics.
 
I think it's more of an association of sounds to what we are accustomed to hearing. When playing big band, i want to sound like Buddy or Gene, how their kits were tuned. When playing metal, i want to sound like Lars Ulrich or Vinnie Paul and I've got a specific sound in my head of what i'm after. To me though, personally, it's in the head selection and tuning. I've got evans genera g2's on my ddrum bubinga kit for a brighter focused attack but i use remo coated ambassadors on my vintage Ludwig maple classics to get a warmer, more organic sound. Am i buying into the hype? maybe, but i'm very finicky in my own preferences
 
Steamer said:
As far a versatility even in a situation like mine playing acoustic jazz my musical instrument "toolbox" is well equiped for a wide selection of needs for different types of players, instruments and playing situations, rooms etc.. both live and in the studio that cross my path. I just make the selection from the toolbox for each job at hand on a individual bases for what "sounds" are best for the situation.

Reminds me of studio guys I know who are very specific about having a wide selection of snares in particular to choose from for different types of sessions and studio recording projects. Sometimes they show up with 5 or more snares till they hear just the right sound for the artist/project/jingle etc.. at hand well listening and checking the playbacks to zero in on the best fit for each job.
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Yeah, but isn't a ride a ride? Who's to say that your wonderful jazz cymbals couldn't find a place on a rock drummer's kit? Who's to say that a 20" Zildjian A Medium Ride wouldn't get the job done just as well as a hand-crafted Turkish cymbal on a jazz gig? Why do we try to claim that certain sounds from certain instruments only "work" with certain genres? It's not the actual instruments that attribute themselves to the specific tasks we use them for. It's all subjective, and I'm wondering why exactly we (myself included) have the audacity to profess that there's anything more to it than an opinion. We present it to each other on this forum and to ourselves as if it were some "fact" that we weren't making up in our own minds.

aydee said:
SO yeah, to answer your question, we go way overboard on buying into product sales pitches of the manufacturers, but man,,, is there's a lot of stuff out there ( and Its all on Richard's kit ; ), that would never work for me.
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There's lots of stuff that I don't like playing on. I'm very finicky about my own gear and what I use specific pieces of my collection for. I'm trying to wax philosophical about WHY we do what we do when, truth be told, we could use any instrument to fill a slot where it's needed--but we somehow in our minds have trained ourselves to think that "this" or "that" instrument simply isn't "good enough" or "appropriate" for a particular application.

I got thinking about this in reference to some recent threads about; orchestral vs. drum kit snares, jazz vs. rock rides, versatile hi hats, the versatility of 18" kick drums, snares for jazz, and some others...

Who's to say that we can't use a drum kit snare as an orchestral snare? (well, me for one, but why do I even bother?) I'm just trying to get to the core of the general consensus about these matters...

More thoughts???
 
caddywumpus said:
Yeah, but isn't a ride a ride? Who's to say that your wonderful jazz cymbals couldn't find a place on a rock drummer's kit? Who's to say that a 20" Zildjian A Medium Ride wouldn't get the job done just as well as a hand-crafted Turkish cymbal on a jazz gig? Why do we try to claim that certain sounds from certain instruments only "work" with certain genres? It's not the actual instruments that attribute themselves to the specific tasks we use them for. It's all subjective, and I'm wondering why exactly we (myself included) have the audacity to profess that there's anything more to it than an opinion. We present it to each other on this forum and to ourselves as if it were some "fact" that we weren't making up in our own minds.


QUOTE]

NO not all rides are created equal :} Some cymbals simply sound "better" or "fit better" with certain kinds of music based on the players musical ideas, touch etc.. based on a certain range of cymbal characteristics and dynamic response for in particular by example in my case acoustically related ensemble jazz music situations to my ear as intended by design and other cymbals certainly do not being designed with a different set of parameters and music in mind to my ears.Your not going to play at a small concert hall playing an intimate evening of subtle piano trio jazz with a set of Zildjian Pitch blacks LOL!

Subjective opinion yes agreed but no gray area for me when I know and have what best fits the character of the music to a tee to my ears for my touch and the music I play. Straight up plain musical common sense the way I see it personally and professionally speaking.

Maybe my pies would be fine for heavier loud music but the dark complex qualities of them probably wouldn't fit {or be heard} and be cutting and bright enough for really loud music and for the players intent of what is desired from them in the first place is my quess on it. Some of them would be played much to hard to try and get the volume required out of them when they were originally designed to best fit well in a mix at softer levels for a blend in a acoustic piano situation by example. Makes sense? Does for me. No right or wrong only the "right" choice of instrument{s} for what the music needs best for each players individual situation.
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Caddy, I can certainly relate to your struggle with the contradiction. I find that I like the sound of thinner crashes to give a quicker explosion with a trashy element to them. My HHX studio crash did just that, but I find a far more complex and fuller sound from my Paiste Twenty crashes but they still retain that trashy, quick sound. Superior in sound to my ear.

But to your point, I don't find one more versatile than the other. Period. They are just great sounding cymbals.

Also, to further your point, I commented on another thread many months ago, that I feel there is an EXTREMELY small percentage of us drummers that can pass a Pepsi Challege from one drum brand to another. For example, if someone walked into a bar (no this is not the beginning of every joke you've heard) and the band's drummer had a huge Pearl logo on his black reso head, but every drum in his set was a Yamaha Maple Custom, and someone asked the guy the next day what drums the band played, what do you think he would say?

Hearing a difference in birch or maple is one thing but hearing a difference in Tama's maple or DW's maple? C'mon! It's witchcraft. And like it's been mentioned before, with recording variables and controls, can you really tell if someone is playing Sabian bronze or Zildjian bronze (of course many would argue it's the same bronze, but still). How many of us could identify by ear a brand of cymbal? Would you bet your kit on it?

We like what we like. But more importantly, we like what we think we like. Many of us don't really know. For me, I'll admit that there's a pride in ownership factor that probably carries more weight than it "should" in my gear purchasing. Anyway, who was it that said, "I have the simplist of tastes. I only like the best."

My other obsessive hobby is watches (no surprise by my avatar). And there may not be a more subjective object on the planet than watches. Some only care if tells the time. To me every watch tells the time, I want it to speak to me. There is no limit to what I would spend on a watch or drums. As long as I can afford to part with that amount of money I will have no regrets. Not many people are cool with dropping $4000 on a watch that "all it does is tell time." Just like many people think it's crazy to drop a year's worth of college tuition on "just a set of drums."

Bottom line is that what gear a drummer plays seems to only matter to other drummers (and occasionally other musicians). What a drummer plays never seems to matter to the fans. They just don't care. Ever been asked what kind of cymbal you played by anyone who didn't have a drum key in his/her pocket?
 
yeah, agreed on all. There are certain situations where you need a specific tool for the application that you are after. ie- In an orchestral environment, sensitivity and articulation are requisites for certain arrangements and the snare off of a pdp 805 or pearl export kit just isn't going to match up with a Ludwig COB with a super-sensitive strainer when attempting Evocation #1 for orchestral snare by William J. Schinstine . My popcorn soprano piccolo maple snare just won't cut it when i'm covering "Blood and Thunder" from Mastodon either. I have a k constantinople 22" that has a nice "ping" and a dry sizzle to it that would just turn into an inaudible wash if i tried to play metal with it. My Paiste formula 602 gets that job done easily and cuts through a jackass on my left with a marshall stack jcm 800 and a jackass on my right with a mesa boogie triple rectifier who've called volume war.
 
TenPastTen said:
Caddy, I can certainly relate to your struggle with the contradiction. I find that I like the sound of thinner crashes to give a quicker explosion with a trashy element to them. My HHX studio crash did just that, but I find a far more complex and fuller sound from my Paiste Twenty crashes but they still retain that trashy, quick sound. Superior in sound to my ear.

But to your point, I don't find one more versatile than the other. Period. They are just great sounding cymbals.

Also, to further your point, I commented on another thread many months ago, that I feel there is an EXTREMELY small percentage of us drummers that can pass a Pepsi Challege from one drum brand to another. For example, if someone walked into a bar (no this is not the beginning of every joke you've heard) and the band's drummer had a huge Pearl logo on his black reso head, but every drum in his set was a Yamaha Maple Custom, and someone asked the guy the next day what drums the band played, what do you think he would say?

Hearing a difference in birch or maple is one thing but hearing a difference in Tama's maple or DW's maple? C'mon! It's witchcraft. And like it's been mentioned before, with recording variables and controls, can you really tell if someone is playing Sabian bronze or Zildjian bronze (of course many would argue it's the same bronze, but still). How many of us could identify by ear a brand of cymbal? Would you bet your kit on it?

We like what we like. But more importantly, we like what we think we like. Many of us don't really know. For me, I'll admit that there's a pride in ownership factor that probably carries more weight than it "should" in my gear purchasing. Anyway, who was it that said, "I have the simplist of tastes. I only like the best."

My other obsessive hobby is watches (no surprise by my avatar). And there may not be a more subjective object on the planet than watches. Some only care if tells the time. To me every watch tells the time, I want it to speak to me. There is no limit to what I would spend on a watch or drums. As long as I can afford to part with that amount of money I will have no regrets. Not many people are cool with dropping $4000 on a watch that "all it does is tell time." Just like many people think it's crazy to drop a year's worth of college tuition on "just a set of drums."

Bottom line is that what gear a drummer plays seems to only matter to other drummers (and occasionally other musicians). What a drummer plays never seems to matter to the fans. They just don't care. Ever been asked what kind of cymbal you played by anyone who didn't have a drum key in his/her pocket?
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Many of us simply use our ears as our guide to our favorite sounds. I do and know what sounds I like and what sounds don't work for me as a musician and musical instruments just as you and countless others do based on your own individual needs. Pretty simple and it's not a crime to be picky and discerning for any individual regarding going about searching out those certain particular sounds that define our musical stamp or personally that really"do it" just right in the context of the music you play. Sound and character are always #1 with hype being very far down at the bottom of the list at least for me

We are all different with different taste and sound desires based on many factors so it's fine to let our various choices in instruments reflect that in my view.
 
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Steamer said:
Many of us simply use our ears as our guide to our favorite sounds. I do and know what sounds I like and what sounds don't work for me as a musician and musical instruments just as you and countless others do based on your own individual needs. Pretty simple and it's not a crime to be picky and discerning for any individual regarding going about searching out those certain particular sounds that define our musical stamp or personally that really"do it" just right in the context of the music you play. Sound and character are always #1 with hype being very far down at the bottom of the list at least for me

We are all different with different taste and sound desires based on many factors so it's fine to let our various choices in instruments reflect that in my view.
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A very eloquent summation. It will take much more exposure to much more gear to refine my taste as much as yours.

Fact of the matter is, if Stanton Moore played my Mapex M Birch and Paiste Twentys they would sound downright greasy while dripping funk. If Tomas Haake played my Mapex M Birch and Paiste Twentys it would sound like power punches of death with cutting, biting bronze barks.

When I play Stanton's Gretsch USA Customs and Bosphorus gear, I sound...like me. Same with Haake's Sonor Designer Series and HHX's.

I quess to rubberstamp an answer to the question: no. If gear was truly universal, there would not be so much of it. Same as drumming.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but it all comes down to the drummer I think. I think a lot of great jazz drummers around here can play jazz very well on that 24" Chris Adler ride, even though it's not designed for it.
You have to make the gear work for you, great drummers sound great on cheap drumsets with Stagg cymbals. I you play the beat like you want to hear it, it doesn't matter if you have a Zilbian HHK Custom or something like that, people will probably just hear your beat, and that it's tight (or swingy if that's what you want to play :)) .

I totally love gear myself though, and I am dreaming of a big set one day, with all the cymbals that sound exactly like I want them, even though I am probably the only one that's going to hear the big difference.
 
What would you think of led zeppelin if john bonham used a 12" piccolo snare? or how bout an 18" bass drum? or smaller cymbals? I think we would think of him very differently. Why? because his sound was what made him unique, his power, his passion. there's only so much power you can achieve from an 18" bass. Kashmir would have been nothing special.

I think it just comes down to personal preference and what sounds just "fit" in with the music your playing.
 
Thanks for the comments so far. Here's the thing...I agree with ALL of you so far. I know that Steamer and TenPastTen have different viewpoints on this, but I can see both sides of the issue. I guess that's my problem. I'm picky about my gear, I'm very finicky about my sounds that I'm creating, but I also am of the opinion that a lot of the stuff we talk about in regards to gear is all just opinion, and none of it really matters. Historically speaking, a lot of the greatest players never played on the greatest gear. We are more obsessed with the holy grail of kits and cymbals now more than ever.

This sums up exactly what I was thinking when I made the post. Thanks for articulating it so well, TenPastTen...
TenPastTen said:
But to your point, I don't find one more versatile than the other. Period. They are just great sounding cymbals.
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Once you get above the beginner cymbal level, the cymbals are all great. Pingy and bright or trashy and dark--it doesn't matter. One cymbal isn't inherently "better" than all of the others. It's all just personal opinion and taste.
 
frank0072 said:
I didn't read the whole thread, but it all comes down to the drummer I think. I think a lot of great jazz drummers around here can play jazz very well on that 24" Chris Adler ride, even though it's not designed for it.
You have to make the gear work for you, great drummers sound great on cheap drumsets with Stagg cymbals. I you play the beat like you want to hear it, it doesn't matter if you have a Zilbian HHK Custom or something like that, people will probably just hear your beat, and that it's tight (or swingy if that's what you want to play :)) .

I totally love gear myself though, and I am dreaming of a big set one day, with all the cymbals that sound exactly like I want them, even though I am probably the only one that's going to hear the big difference.
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Yes I understand your point. A good player player can adapt to gear to still try and get their sound out. My point is valid too that why not choose to play an instrument{s} that fit much easier into the mix of the particular music you select to play from the get go. You don't have to work quite so hard to get to the "zone of character" you're after right away which you can achieve on the spot for instruments designed for certain type of musical situations/blend with other instruments in mind. This works just the same for soft acoustic jazz right up to very loud heavy metal about finding what's best needed to suit the player and the music without having to fight to get the sound just"right".

Adapting is fine but having the right tool{s} to begin with sure makes the job a hell of alot easier and just "sounds" more appropriate for each given genre to my ears.
 
TheGroceryman said:
What would you think of led zeppelin if john bonham used a 12" piccolo snare? or how bout an 18" bass drum? or smaller cymbals? I think we would think of him very differently. Why? because his sound was what made him unique, his power, his passion. there's only so much power you can achieve from an 18" bass. Kashmir would have been nothing special.

I think it just comes down to personal preference and what sounds just "fit" in with the music your playing.
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Yeah, and what if Sing Sing Sing were played on the snare drum, or Ringo played on a Gretsch Round Badge in bop sizes on the Ed Sullivan Show? The face of drumming would be waaaayyyyyy different. It would still be here, but the trends would be different...
 
Just remembered a thread I'd started a while back called " gearsucker" which talked about this dilemma...

he's my 1st post from that thread. This performance is still etched as a riveting musical memory in my head:

Walking down the streets of NYC, this summer, I came across a 3 piece street band that was burning up the street, playing some seriously funky music. The Sax player and bass were hot, but the young drummer…must have been 18-19…was something else. He was smokin'... He was doing the most incredible things I’d ever heard. And I've heard a few...

....On a beat up and torn old No- name bass drum, a snare with a lug missing from the batter head and a hi-hat that kept collapsing. That was it.

The sound and the energy creating by this band was unreal. Even the jaded ol' New Yorkers had to stop sucking on their Starbucks and listen.

Wonder if we sometimes make too big a deal about gear, and heads, cymbals etc, and not enough about the music were making.

I think I am often guilty of this. What do you think?
__________________
 
Steamer said:
Yes I understand your point. A good player player can adapt to gear to still try and get their sound out. My point is valid too that why not choose to play an instrument{s} that fit much easier into the mix of the particular music you select to play from the get go. You don't have to work quite so hard to get to the "zone of character" you're after right away which you can achieve on the spot for instruments designed for certain type of musical situations/blend with other instruments in mind. This works just the same for soft acoustic jazz right up to very loud heavy metal about finding what's best needed to suit the player and the music without having to fight to get the sound just"right".

Adapting is fine but having the right tool{s} to begin with sure makes the job a hell of alot easier and just "sounds" more appropriate for each given genre to my ears.
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Yeah, but aren't we just kidding ourselves by saying that "x" gear is better suited for "y" music than "z" gear? When, how, and why did we learn this--is it because it's what we've heard before and are simply going along with the norm and the pattern already established by players who came before? Or, are we coming up with new and innovative personal opinions and choices that reflect our own ground-breaking innovations to the world of drumming? Anywhere between these two points is just blowing smoke up our own butts and into our inflated drumming egos, I think. No offense to anyone at all. I'm talking mostly to myself here, and trying to stir up more discussion...

Who decided that smaller singing drums were a part of the jazz sound? Where did we get the notion that rock drummers should play on kits that have a big boomy sound?
 
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