Speeeeed!!

Larry,
I agree those results are quick. But I started as late as at age 37 so I simply don't have the time to invest 15 years or something to crunch some bpm (I spent a good deal of my life on guitar techniques, don't have another life to do the same with drums). Those 240 bpm on footwork/heel up was something which took me about 7 months (starting from zero)! No progress since that time though, but considering 240 isn't bad, I'm not complaining.

I don't want to bore anybody with guitar stuff but just to clear up: I was doing that test with sextuplet patterns played on the high e string. I was sliding up and down after playing that pattern 1 time, and that slide made it a 7-tuplet. I don't remember the exact calcultation but the speed I was pushing myself towards was in the 210 bpm range. Those patterns involved finger combinations 1-3-4 or 1-2-4 (1=index, 4=pinky).

Ok, let's just ignore the bpm's I've given relating to myself as long as I don't provide video proof. Let's go on and see what others have to contribute. This thread isn't about me, ok? ;-)

More on topic, and also addressing Larry's idea of writing a book (hahaha - Larry, you're a creative guy!) - here's some thoughts on how to go for progress. What works for somebody doesn't necessarily work for others. You have to find out what works best for you - when to practice (it might not matter at all, or some prefer to practice in the morning, evening etc.), how long to practice, how you're structuring your practice. I was focusing on technique/speed so that was where my results are. I said months ago that for now I'm doing that "strategy" to just "get into it" mechanically while lacking in terms of groove, style. This is what I will address at a later time, or gradually grow into. I'm still in the "learn the mechanics, and push it" phase. Makes sense to me (and has worked well so far). I also want to mention that there's so much one can do for overall improvement in addition to actually sitting at a kit, or to even practice while being away from a kit. That concept of practicing (patterns, rhythm) in one's mind is really great - I haven't really explored that yet - has been discussed on other threads.

Then there's the purely physical aspect. I do some sports (running, sometimes weight training) to stay fit and for some overall endurance. You don't have to do so but if you're going for high speed and holding this for minutes (e.g. heel up @ 240 bpm for 40 minutes, as I did about 2 months ago), some degree of physical conditioning (from running, cycling, weight training) certainly helps. It's not a must but a "should"/"can't hurt". I'm also doing isolated left hand exercises a lot - while being at the PC, with the right hand doing all the stuff, I would practice trad grip on a pad or snare (& pad on top usually). I try to make practice time. There's lots of ways to work on various stuff. Check your diet (there's huge potential for me in that field!). Try to stay healthy (or frankly: don't drink or smoke!). Etc.

I'm trying to implement multi-tasking in my life. Took me some experimenting on what works and what doesn't. I remember a discussion on DW with a guy who said: What? You're practicing while not 100% focusing on drumming but watching the TV or doing other stuff? Mike Mangini doesn't do this, he's always focusing 100%. (And I - meaning that guy - am a disciple of Mangini so I would never practice at the TV.) As I said - for some it works, for others it doesn't. I'd say everybody could find out how to max one's practice time (including time being away from the kit and pad!) or to combine things to save overall time. I think it does boil down to the time you can find to practice (whether 100% focused or multi-tasking). This has actually changed my life. E.g. I'm practicing doubles on the feet while working at the PC. Took some time to learn this but it's working for me. I couldn't imagine to first do this, then do that, purely consecutively. I'm trying to "layer" various things. One can learn this to some degree. Give it a try, it's your time you're saving.

I'm imagining a conversation with that "I'm practicing like Mike Mangini [who is a superb drummer, I'm using him for example purposes here] - only 100% focus" guy (let's call him the "MMD" - Mike Mangini disciple).
MMD: What? You max out at 240 bpm w/ heel up?
Arky: Yes. Can you do this? (Just guessing that he can't.)
MMD: No. How did you do it? How long did it take you? (I'm playing for... [let's say 6-8] years.)
Arky: I hit that speed in 7 months. Multi-tasking. Making practice time. Do several things at the same time. (= NOT always having 100% focus.) And yes, sometimes I'm practicing at the TV, too. (Has worked with the guitar for years - at least for me.)
MMD: I see... (Returns to his 100% focused practice routine and being a Mike Mangini disciple.)]
...just an example that some things work for some, not for everybody, and that some people choose to do things in a certain way and maybe are passing the chance to optimize/maximize by trying to squeeze more what can be done into the same amount of time.
 
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All this speed talk is all very well, but have you done a "2 minute solo challenge" video? I want to see where it's all getting you.
 
Once again - this is not about me. Come on, what have you to contribute to this thread? ;-)

All this speed talk is all very well, but have you done a "2 minute solo challenge" video? I want to see where it's all getting you.
No, I haven't. But I gave it a thought. But hey, I'm a beginner basically so why should I even attempt to mess with the real (wo)men? Also, and as you may well be aware, to do some interesting solos doesn't mean you need high speed or blistering chops. So that question to me sounds a bit like asking an extreme drummer to just play some funk. If he/she can't play some funk - is this a sign of having completely wasted one's practice time? Considering I've started drumming with the initial goal of developing some understanding of how drummers think to get better at arranging drum samples on the PC, I think I've come a long way. I didn't expected to get hooked.

Liebe Zeit, how long have you been into drumming until you recorded your first solo and uploaded it onto a drummer forum? Under 2 years? Just curious.
Also, I'm not selecting what to practice on the basis of what others think of this. Why am I drumming? To please others? No, to please... me! So "where is this getting me"? I'm still on my way, the journey hasn't ended yet and I don't know where all this will/might take me. No idea, really.

Honestly I feel I'm so much lacking maturity in terms of drumming to do anything like a solo so it doesn't make sense. I could record myself improvising on the pad for 1 minute but hey, that would be a mix of various rudiments, nothing more. I can't express myself freely on the drums because I haven't acquired the means to do so (at least not yet).
hi arky. its not that i don't believe you. i'd just like to see a video.
This is perfectly clear. I'd like to have some proof in that case, too if someone is claiming this and that. Without proof it's just blabbering.

I've just checked my current paradiddle speed and must say that 250 bpm... that was on a very good day. It was a bit sloppy when I just played it, even 230-240 wasn't easy. So I'll push it the next few days to get it "more real" for video purposes.
 
Yeah, like you, I've been playing about 18 months. The video is on the 2 minute solo thread

It's just a bunch of paradiddles, and not very fast at all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyJoh1ERFsE&feature=youtu.be
Hey, that's a cool video! Well kudos to you then.

Ok, I could try something similar. No Mozambique or clave but what I've been doing recently was spreading rudiments between ride & hihat/snare plus have the feet going in machine gun mode. Even a standard paradiddle sounds super cool if you're using various zones on the ride to get different sounds out of it (I like my Meinl Byzance ride - got it used).

You know, I did follow that solo thread at the beginning, but the amount of videos and posts got so overwhelming for me so I just disengaged.
 
spreading rudiments between ride & hihat/snare plus have the feet going in machine gun mode. Even a standard paradiddle sounds super cool if you're using various zones on the ride to get different sounds out of it (I like my Meinl Byzance ride - got it used).
That sounds like a great idea! Give it a go! I just used a digital camera for the video and recorded on my laptop on a decent USB mic, then added the latter to the former
 
Considering I've started drumming with the initial goal of developing some understanding of how drummers think to get better at arranging drum samples on the PC, I think I've come a long way. I didn't expected to get hooked.

Ha!!! ...it's becoming an addiction, isn't it? :) It's all good man, I understand the feeling, and unlike fags, drugs or alcohol, it's a pretty safe stuff to become addicted too ;-))

So "where is this getting me"? I'm still on my way, the journey hasn't ended yet and I don't know where all this will/might take me. No idea, really.

...well, hopefully to make some music, as a drummer of course, you already did it as a guitarist :))

With all the rudiments, techniques you've practiced for some 20 months, you're ready to play behind a proper kit, and since you have already worked out the important but relative aspect of Speeeeed, lol, you could apply your aqquired experience to the kit, but focusing on control, sounds, dynamics, time, space, coordinations, styles, creativity, tuning, the list is almost endless :)

... as far as soloing on a drumset, you're not a genuine beginner, 21 years of playing guitars, writing music and your general experience as a musician gives you an edge, and you'll probably be surprised as to what you'll play on a good inspired moment behind the drums, but that's another thread's topic, haha :)
 
It's all in technique and proper motion. Attempting to improve in speed is a grey area, in my opinion. Do you need it? No. Does it come in handy? Yes. I will never have to play paradiddles at 280 BPM, singles at 280 BPM, and other rudiments/hybrid rudiments at 200 BPM+ for an extended period of time, but I can. Most of your favorite drummers can do all of this, as well, but you never see them do it, because it's not necessary unless you're planning to audition for Dragonforce or Dimmu Borgir. Applying the Moeller Method is where you'll see an increase in speed for any type of playing. Jim Chapin preached this his entire life and it works. It works very well. Also, DCI drummers achieve this through proper technique and training to specific muscles, or specific hand/finger movement. I would never suggest practicing speed when you're lacking in groove, timing, or overall musicianship. If you do so anyway, let me tell you: you're headed in the wrong direction. Be honest with yourself and find out what you need to do in order to become a better drummer.
 
It's all in technique and proper motion. Attempting to improve in speed is a grey area, in my opinion. Do you need it? No. Does it come in handy? Yes. I will never have to play paradiddles at 280 BPM, singles at 280 BPM, and other rudiments/hybrid rudiments at 200 BPM+ for an extended period of time, but I can. Most of your favorite drummers can do all of this, as well, but you never see them do it, because it's not necessary unless you're planning to audition for Dragonforce or Dimmu Borgir. Applying the Moeller Method is where you'll see an increase in speed for any type of playing. Jim Chapin preached this his entire life and it works. It works very well. Also, DCI drummers achieve this through proper technique and training to specific muscles, or specific hand/finger movement. I would never suggest practicing speed when you're lacking in groove, timing, or overall musicianship. If you do so anyway, let me tell you: you're headed in the wrong direction. Be honest with yourself and find out what you need to do in order to become a better drummer.

please post a video of you playing paradiddles at 280
 
Yeah. My guess with some of this stuff is your mind and ears can play tricks on you when playing along with a metronome. There are times at really fast speeds when you believe you're keeping up but you're actually not.

Matt Smith talked about this a lot in the context of WFD and how trying to use a metronome at those speeds was often fool's gold for the player who thought he was cranking out championship speeds. Then the player would try the same thing on a Drumometer and be shocked at how much slower than expected the results were.
 
Back to your OP Arky, I did a quick and dirty clock of myself.

I can do paradiddles comfortably at about 180.

I can single stroke comfortably at 200. I didn't try bursts.

Anything beyond that starts to get sloppy. I haven't worked on straight speed in quite a while though.
 
Great input - thanks everyone!

@ JoeLackey
Yes, I'd like to see/hear those 280 bpm, too. Or I'll do it myself, probably in 3 years ;-)
Just kiddin'.
I understand your general perspective on speed. I guess you're doing me wrong here (not in terms of me being a "good" drummer in any way - I'm a beginner!), but in terms of my overall orientation (you don't know my orig. stuff).
PS: Dragonforce would be a no-go for me (children music on speed to my ears), but Dimmu... that's serious!

@ 8Mile
Good point! In my max speed regions this might be an issue to some extent, but you'll see/hear for yourself. I have a slow down prog to check the audio - I've never recorded myself drumming, neither the double bass stuff nor handwork - but that prog can slow things down to 10% of the original speed.

@ Larry
Thanks for checking that out, but you know, that's merely numbers. If you needed more speed for the music you're after then you'd have practiced accordingly. What we're practicing depends of what we want/need, right? (Be it for real music or physical conditioning.)

----------------

I haven't forgotten this thread... I'm pushing it for a few days now. Going at 250 bpm in 2-minute MP3 click tracks for a while now (started @ 200, then speeding up in 10 bpm increments) - pushing paradiddle for a few seconds, switching hands, do some slower flams between, switching between matched and trad. It's hard but if I do a few video takes (going to do so at the weekend) there should be some clean runs among them.

Did 4 hours of footwork and a 6 km run afterwards yesterday. Today = feet rest. The foot speed was good, I could hold 240 for a while. As for hands... Feeling some lack of control in my left hand. I'd practice slower stuff to address this but continue to push it for the weekend video takes.

In case I'll survive the weekend and "the drumming community" critique I'll return to more moderate speed for a while, to build more control. I'm sure there won't be any noteworthy speed progress for quite some time, but it might/should get easier to maintain those speeds, with more ease and mixing up more patterns.

Everybody - feel free to post some speed videos (of yourself) of course!!
 
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Isn't this all just an obsession with speed now? You said yourself you started drumming to help you understand how to programme drum tracks better. Your quest for speed seems totally unrelated to that now, so haven't you drifted from your original aim and ended up down a blind alley? Or is there some purpose or thought out change in your aims that I don't see?
 
Isn't this all just an obsession with speed now? You said yourself you started drumming to help you understand how to programme drum tracks better. Your quest for speed seems totally unrelated to that now, so haven't you drifted from your original aim and ended up down a blind alley? Or is there some purpose or thought out change in your aims that I don't see?
Ok, this isn't really OT but as you'd like to know:
Obsession? I TEND to get obsessed with what interests me. If you knew me you wouldn't have asked, haha.

Yes, there's no real relationship between getting better insight into a drummer's mind and what I'm doing now. But imagine I'll continue to push it for a while so I'd have serious advantage taking this stuff to the kit (when I'll have one) - going the usual route of starting slow etc. would take a few years more, wouldn't it? I'm doing this for coordination sake, just so I would know how 2xx bpm feel with the hands/feet. Why do I have to postpone this and get into that speed range in, say, 5-10 years? What's the benefit (of "waiting" instead of addressing technique/speed right away)? I'm not feeling I did something wrong, quite the opposite.

I've paused that songwriting/recording stuff temporarily (but want to go on working on the first album soon). One thing I can benefit from is that while I was completely going by ear/instinct when arranging the drum lines I had some year ago, now knowing a bunch of rudiments has hugely expanded my understanding of breaking the more complex stuff down into its fragments (quite similar to the el. guitar and solo stuff). But the music I need those arrangements for isn't fast or mighty complex (at least for drums) so there is some... I wouldn't say discrepancy, but over-motorisation. IMO it's not a blind valley but I came to a fork and chose to go another (not exactly parallel) path for a while.

When I started drumming I didn't know in advance what the outcome would be. I thought I'd just hit some sticks onto a pad, learn 2-3 rudiments and all of a sudden I'd have a deeper understanding of drum arrangement. I wouldn't say I'm in a blind alley now. It's a question of how to apply musically what there is technically. Whatever this will be, it won't be utilised in my current projects. Because those need a _good_ drummer (=being creative, finding the right parts for the song sections), and there's nothing over 144 bpm (if I remember correctly). In terms of speed I'd have enough headroom, haha.

Don't worry, I won't practice speed stuff all the time. There will be a time to get into styles & grooves (which in a way is harder than practicing 16th rolls between the limbs).

Hopefully I'm not boring you with those details. I'm practicing drumming (with a focus on technique/speed) just for fun. This might change any time and head into a new/different direction. I might end up in jazz although this isn't very likely.

[A recent comment of my dad, on me practicing on the double pedal: "If you continue to do this then one day (in the not so distant future) you'll get spastic."]

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@ Matt Smith
Matt, would you mind sharing some speed demon bpm values? Now that would be interesting.
 
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Control first, then enduarance and then push for speed. That's the formula that works for me.

If one wants to be a creative, adaptive and versatile musician it's great to have tons of overhead. I think it's important to be fully conscious of every note though, and develop the ears simultaneously as being a slave to limited but fast technique is no fun. Hence I like to spend some time pushing my physical ability. When I'm working on speed the focus is on endurance and whatever I do I try to keep it interesting and musical.

I don't fully keep track of tempos as I want to be able to switch things up while playing, but I do one handed 16ths as an endurance exercise and those are around 116 bpm now.

Playing music is a whole different ballgame as then the focus can't be on technique.You have to switch things around all the time and because of placement of different surfaces and that you're mainly going for sound, a good feel and musicality there is a different type of endurance needed. The sound of the kit changes your perception and how things feel. This to me is especially true for the bass drum which truly was a pain for me at first. Very different from using my Realfeel pad.
 
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Yeah. My guess with some of this stuff is your mind and ears can play tricks on you when playing along with a metronome. There are times at really fast speeds when you believe you're keeping up but you're actually not.

Matt Smith talked about this a lot in the context of WFD and how trying to use a metronome at those speeds was often fool's gold for the player who thought he was cranking out championship speeds. Then the player would try the same thing on a Drumometer and be shocked at how much slower than expected the results were.

love the new avi pic

pure class
 
I've tried to stay outta this thread......tried and now failed miserably.

Guys, I wanna see these paradiddles played as 16th notes at 250 and 280bpm.
 
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