Girl drummers

Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as "girl drummers"? We don't say "boy drummer" although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much.

hmm yes, but we do say male model, male prostitute and male nurse.
 
Referring to the gender is fine, it's the difference between the use of the word "girl" vs the word female. If we said "boy" model I don't the the male models would like it very much. ;)
 
Unless you're talking about someone under the age of, say, 14, it's pretty offensive, especially in the context of a conversation about “girls” being crappy drummers who unfairly hog all the YouTube hits. It's not a whole lot better than calling an adult African-American male “boy”— there's the same ongoing history of belittling there. To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.
 
Fair points about girl vs woman, although it should be said that the circle turns and sometimes when one reaches a certain age, being called a girl or chick again is ... refreshing.

It's true that "girl" and "boy" can be to help enforce subjugated status, but it's pretty well never the case on this site. These words are almost invariably coming from young males whose world consists of "guys and girls" - no intent, no harm, no foul IMO
 
Karl, was she to the best of your knowledge the first women drumkit drummer?

I see what you mean, but if I remember the piece correctly, they didn't list VS as the first "drum kit" player. Could be wrong, but I don't recall "drum kit" being singled out.
It was Gretsch publicity too, so they'd say whatever they wanted in an advertisement for a pretty lady on their drums.

I have no idea on how "rare" she was as a drummer. She and her sisters were all in Vaudeville at an early age (under 12 for sure) though.

I don't have any pics of my Grandmother on a "tensionable lugs on both heads" kind of kit from back then. She probably played what was a "trap" kit with a Chinese tom, snare and all that.
I have a pic of her when she was older on a Radio King 4 piece kit.
I have pics of my Grandfather on a tunable kit, and some marching pics of him.

This is the only pic I have available on PB of her ATM--Nelly Jay and her Jay Birds--think this is 1926

JayBirds.jpg

If I only had that bass drum.... :)

I have A bass drum (Leedy), but not this one.
 
Blah blah blah blah blah.

How’s our favourite dead horse doing?

In the UK (correct me if I’m wrong), “boy” is a pretty normal term for any male human. Not insulting at all.

And while we’re picking nits, “gender” has little to do with “male” and “female”: those are sexes, not genders per se.

Here’s my (completely unsupported) theory on why there are so few female drummers: women in the Western world are taught from a very young age that it’s somehow wrong to sit with legs apart, so sitting at a kit with a snare drum in the normal position causes mental anguish (conscious or otherwise) which manifests as a general uncomfortable feeling about drumming. Or, similarly, our young wannabe-drummer may have a great desire to play, but she’s put off by thoughts that other people will judge her as un-ladylike, which is, again, something she’s been taught to avoid. (Note, however, that this argument seems irrelevant when you look at the large number of female cellists. Go figure.)
 
Fair points about girl vs woman, although it should be said that the circle turns and sometimes when one reaches a certain age, being called a girl or chick again is ... refreshing.

It's true that "girl" and "boy" can be to help enforce subjugated status, but it's pretty well never the case on this site. These words are almost invariably coming from young males whose world consists of "guys and girls" - no intent, no harm, no foul IMO

I think most of the time the word "girl" isn't intended to be offensive. Most guys toss the word around without really thinking about it. It is inappropriate to refer to adult women who play the drums as "girl drummers" though. I see your point about it coming full circle after a certain age. It's like reaching that point when your flattered to get carded for beer. :)

Karl, that picture is amazing! I need to learn more about these women.
 
Unless you're talking about someone under the age of, say, 14, it's pretty offensive, especially in the context of a conversation about “girls” being crappy drummers who unfairly hog all the YouTube hits. It's not a whole lot better than calling an adult African-American male “boy”— there's the same ongoing history of belittling there. To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.

Doesn't really ring true in the UK. Boys and Girls are 'usually' the term for children but there is no sense of offence if it's used for adults.
 
Oh well, then your speculation was questionable. In matters of skill I think you will find far greater difference within genders than between them.

Males tend to have more fast-twitch fibres in their muscles so that may be your angle, but I don't equate speed with quality as a musician and but some people seem to think the acrobatic component of music is paramount (I see speed as one of the least important things in drumming, except in a few genres and subgenres).




Happy to help you change your perception.

You have based your speculation on 3.5 billion people on a handful of girls in your old school - a particular place in a particular time with a particular culture with a particular availability of role models with particular instructors and the girls had their individual family situations, who will have attitudes about women on drums (as opposed to girls on drums - a lot of girls quit sports prematurely too).

Add society's stereotypical views about gender and drummers and you have far too many qualifying and mitigating factors to allow for valid speculation about comparative physiological aptitude.

Regarding different muscle fibers - I was not at all referring to the physical ability, rather the mental framework. We've all learned in life that various activities are usually more mental than physical. I believe that drumming is a LOT of neurological training.

I'm amused by the amount of misconceptions and assumptions being made about me personally. Not sure how that equates to this topic (as if I base this off of a particular moment in time in one specific area).

So if there are too many factors allowing speculation, I should just turn my pens and pencils in, and accept that nothing can explain it, but I'm wrong.

The question really is: Aren't there more male musicians then female around generally? (And I rather mean professional adults)
So it probably has nothing to do with anything drumming specific I guess.
This. Just last night I was at a show. Of the 11 bands that played - there were two female musicians. One was a bass player/vocalist. A guy turns to me and says,"I love girl bass players. I think they're hot."

She wasn't impressive as bass player, but that didn't stop my friends from being amazed.

This observation does span across more instruments (and also reverse with a few, where I've seen more females excel than males), I was just trying to stay within the context of drumming.


Wow, the age old debate never dies, eh? Are you really going to refer to us all as "girl drummers"? We don't say "boy drummer" although maybe we should start. I'm a full grown woman thank you very much.
Yeah, PC isn't for me. If people get offended by being called girl (within the context of girls/guys, even though it has been gals/guys vs girls/boys) - there are bigger issues here.
 
... To people like our Jasper, this is an example of political correctness gone mad, but it's really just acting like a grown-up and treating people with basic human respect.
Yeah, I enjoy this aspect of discussions...

My observations appear to be sexist, but then if I attempt to equal the results, then there is more sexism. There is no place for political correctness (unless you are attempting to be elected to a political office).

If I say that more male drivers race cars than women, I'm sexist - right?
It is my observation. How is that wrong?
Are there female drivers? OF COURSE!
Can women race cars? YES!
Can women race cars well? YES!
Is race car driving dominated by men? YES!
Is it politically correct to say any of this? I don't care - it is true, based on my observation.

Now replace race car drivers with drummers. Everything still fits.

*edit: It may very well be a sheer numbers thing - i.e. 1 in 100 drummers would be exceptional, 5 in 100 would be great, maybe 2 of those 100 drummers might be female. So where they fall in could be anywhere in that group of 100. If there were more participants, then perhaps numbers would fall in line. Nobody here is trying to suggest that those two females can't excel, but rather the odds of those two being seen is a rarity (unfortunately). But if 98% (arbitrary assignment) participants are male, there is a large percentage the exceptional ones will be male. I just haven't found that sample of the 2 (or overwhelming minority) excel in that group. I've always seemed to have seen the average (in rare cases, above average - but then is my perception skewed?).
 
Last edited:
I've already conceded this with my earlier posts. In fact, I think I pretty much opened with this. I don't disagree with you (except for the book reading thing - I don't see how this would help me see better drumming). I have every right to make assertions based on my present observations. And I'm here to learn as well.

If someone approaches you and says,"Regarding this topic, I don't agree."

Do you respond and say,"Well you're wrong."

Yes indeed IF I know what someone is stating is not factual, in other words has no *hard data* behind it. A few personal observations are not data, sample size is small and inherently biased already (for example maybe your observations are in all male clubs, or in clubs with music that does not attract many females). Look at how many musicians there are, and then how many are female, and so on.

The book reading helps. This is about opening your mind to the work showing that gender bias exists everywhere and there are simple historical and culture reasons for it (see post by Anduin) that we can easily all be aware of (and that still don;t make it right)

Its like this .....When little Sally shows an interest in music, the drums are the last thing her parents would talk her into. This was the case in 1930, 1950 , 1980 and is only maybe slowly changing today.
 
Yeah, I enjoy this aspect of discussions...

My observations appear to be sexist, but then if I attempt to equal the results, then there is more sexism. There is no place for political correctness (unless you are attempting to be elected to a political office).

If I say that more male drivers race cars than women, I'm sexist - right?
It is my observation. How is that wrong?
Are there female drivers? OF COURSE!
Can women race cars? YES!
Can women race cars well? YES!
Is race car driving dominated by men? YES!
Is it politically correct to say any of this? I don't care - it is true, based on my observation.

Now replace race car drivers with drummers. Everything still fits.

*edit: It may very well be a sheer numbers thing - i.e. 1 in 100 drummers would be exceptional, 5 in 100 would be great, maybe 2 of those 100 drummers might be female. So where they fall in could be anywhere in that group of 100. If there were more participants, then perhaps numbers would fall in line. Nobody here is trying to suggest that those two females can't excel, but rather the odds of those two being seen is a rarity (unfortunately). But if 98% (arbitrary assignment) participants are male, there is a large percentage the exceptional ones will be male. I just haven't found that sample of the 2 (or overwhelming minority) excel in that group. I've always seemed to have seen the average (in rare cases, above average - but then is my perception skewed?).

There's nothing sexist about observing that there are fewer female drummers, of course! It's just a fact. Is someone arguing that it is? I'm late to the party here so maybe that was a previous argument. To American women it's just more respectful to say " women" or "female" vs "girl" when you are referring to them in a non-playful manner. And it's a double standard when men are not called "boys" in the same manner that women are called "girls", typically. That's just another fact. And thank you for saying "female" in your last post instead of "girl". See, you really do listen even though you pretend not to. ;) ;) ;)
 
Yes indeed IF I know what someone is stating is not factual, in other words has no *hard data* behind it. A few personal observations are not data, sample size is small and inherently biased already (for example maybe your observations are in all male clubs, or in clubs with music that does not attract many females). Look at how many musicians there are, and then how many are female, and so on.

The book reading helps. This is about opening your mind to the work showing that gender bias exists everywhere and there are simple historical and culture reasons for it (see post by Anduin) that we can easily all be aware of (and that still don;t make it right)

Its like this .....When little Sally shows an interest in music, the drums are the last thing her parents would talk her into. This was the case in 1930, 1950 , 1980 and is only maybe slowly changing today.
While your points are valid, I don't need any further proof of gender bias. Anyone who has been alive for more than 15 minutes sees this everyday.

There's nothing sexist about observing that there are fewer female drummers, of course! It's just a fact. Is someone arguing that it is? I'm late to the party here so maybe that was a previous argument. To American women it's just more respectful to say " women" or "female" vs "girl" when you are referring to them in a non-playful manner. And it's a double standard when men are not called "boys" in the same manner that women are called "girls", typically. That's just another fact. And thank you for saying "female" in your last post instead of "girl". See, you really do listen even though you pretend not to. ;) ;) ;)

This has been a moving target. You haven't missed much.

I usually say female. That was a mistake, though - because the original post was about 'girl' drummers. So my use of the term 'female' was incorrect. Please disregard.

But basically, this has originated on the premise that 'girl' drummers get more views on youtube videos (or attention in general), simply because they are female, and not their ability to play the drums well (or any better than their male/boy counterparts). And the term of 'girl' is sometimes used correctly. I saw a video with two qualifiers ~ "great girl drummers (for her age)". Uuuggghh.
 
Yeah, Jasper, getting back to your original point I think I agree with you. Women are gonna stand out because it is still relatively unusual to see a female behind the drums and therefore garner more attention. That and they are better to look at. Well, usually anyway. It's rarer still to see a REALLY GREAT female drummer, too. Not for any reason other than there are less of us around.
 
Jasper, no one's arguing against facts, just questioning some of your other comments, like:

Perhaps drumming is a prepositioned masculine trait. Obviously there are women with masculine traits, just as there men who have feminine traits (I have an odd ability to pick out shoes and clothes for my wife).

I'm a rather ordinary female drummer who would seemingly prove your point. Yet I still can't see the genetics in it - not with drums, not with any instrument. Music is one of the most gender neutral things you can do. Certainly at school the guys on the footy team won't think of the guys in the music room as macho.

Yet, most musicians are male, apart from maybe orchestras. I think the most important reason behind this is that women aren't encouraged to play instruments - we are supposed to sing and dance and look pretty and poised for the guys. While some men dig sweaty Amazons (fortunately), princesses are far more in demand ... and a proper lady does not chuck a spread around a snare drum and get all boisterous and sweaty on the drum kit!

The other reason major reason is that gigging and motherhood are an especially tricky juggle.

It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums, but I can't see how there could be an aptitude difference. It's environmental.
 
I sometimes dread to read the comments underneath a youtube video of a girl drumming, some of them are so obnoxious that even I get angry.... I mean, I've been drumming for a year now, and I had some pretty stupid comments thrown into my face when I said I want to drum in a black metal band. (Women shouldn't do black metal, women can't drum black metal, yadda yadda yadda. One even laughed straight into my face...) Oh well, fuck them.

Some girls are drumming in high heels in the youtube videos (why!!! I don't get it! It's the same with driving a car in high heels. I just don't get it.) Respect if you can do it, you know, but why make it more difficult than it is already.
 
It's possible that there may be some minor tendency differences between women and men on the way we play the drums,
I think there are, but almost always a positive aspect of female drummers. Less testosterone is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Almost every female drummer I meet places a far greater emphasis on the song, & is often far better at using dynamics to express rather than relying on flash. To sum up, I think most female drummers, at least the ones who play well, are less selfish in their approach to the instrument.

Some girls are drumming in high heels in the youtube videos (why!!!
let me start by saying, that prick who laughed in your face is a turd of a human. He will reap the benefits of his own prejudice for sure.

Regarding playing in heals. To me, such players are obviously seeking to place a concentration on their femininity. They're shooting for a certain audience, & looking to amass hits primarily on that basis. You can spot that vibe a mile off. Smiles to camera, hair flicking, low cut top, etc, etc. Although that may do them some good on the surface, I don't think it helps their case as a musician to be taken seriously, & it certainly feeds the stereo typing of a gender in drumming. I'm as red blooded as the next guy, but there's a time & a place for that, & it's not behind a kit.
 
Back
Top