Drumlines will hold back the drumset player

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I think techniques need to be adapted from drum corps when moving to set. I learned a drum corps grip that I had to loosen to move over to set, for instance.

I don't agree with your assessment of increased uniformity being a more recent thing in corps. I think it's the opposite, and most involved in corps today lament the loss of that element. The old guard were far more "drum" oriented than the more entertainment-themed corps of today, and the techniques were more regimented. The Bobby Thompson/Les Parks style grips and techniques that were used and taught by people like Marty Hurley and Ken Mazur back in the 70s and early 80s were the pinnacle of precision and uniformity.

All this being said, the benefits gained from playing in drum corps, like coordination, hand development and precision, far outweigh any baggage that comes along with it, IMO.
 
Even the guys I work with at Disneyland, their drum corps abilities include the drumline drumming seen in the movie "Drumline" (a couple of those guys were in that movie) and that seems worlds apart from anything I see from the Blue Devils or the Santa Clara Vanguard. If it's pin-point accuracy you want, then a modern drum corps guy is what you're looking for. But when I see Steve Gadd playing his snare stuff, I see The Old Guard from Washington DC - that kind of drum corps drumming. Definitely more of a swing and a lilt to the playing, and groovier.

Also keep in mind that our favorite watched female player here, Emmanuelle Caplette (?) is very corps-oriented and she grooves quite well. But I also know not everyone here likes how she comes across on the kit too. I just think Steve Jordan's The Groove is Here DVD should be standard issue to all players leaving drum corps and entering the world of playing drumset in bands ;)

Interesting, and cool to hear from someone who actually deals with players on both ends of the spectrum. But is it really fair to Steve Jordan or Steve Gadd to imply that their playing doesn't have "pin-point" accuracy? At some point we need to get away from categorizing these things as correct, right, precise, or accurate. Grid-like, quantized playing is not desirable in much of modern music (pretty much anything that swings, really), but it is very much in vogue within modern drum line playing, and very, very desirable in most of today's pop and R&B music. So is it any surprise that someone steeped in drum line will sound out of place in a Blues Brothers tribute or big band? No, but that doesn't make them "held back". "Inappropriate" is a much better word, and it's nothing that practice and/or experience won't fix.

Mechanical feel aside, the music itself and the way it is learned should also be considered. Drum line players certainly learn to read, but to my knowledge they are rarely encouraged to interpret or improvise, and these can be important skills in a groovy rock band. Playing ideas that fit the music well also comes from a familiarity with a particular genre or style of music. For a drummer, that would include everything from dynamics and phrasing to vocabulary and voicing, as well as song forms, cadences, and other musical structures. Furthermore, many rock bands function without written music completely, working off of a predetermined framework or group of influences. So, yes, a drum line player will have to sort through some tendencies if he wishes to sound authentic on a drum set (and vice versa), but only within certain genres and styles.

If a drum line player doesn't address the needs of the music, then yes, he'll continue to sound out of place; however, that is not the shortcoming of the drum line.
 
Irony? Oh boy, readjust your perspective. No irony from my end. I'm speechless...

Telling someone not to jump on someone else's posts while doing exactly that.

The post was about context, or lack there of. It was joking about it. No harm, no foul. Seriously, you need to not take internet interactions so damn seriously.

It'd be cool if we could stay on target. My intent is actually to help others, not myself. Lord knows I already need all the help I can get.
 
The challenges that a drummer faces going from corps to set can definitely be overcome, I just don't think there is that big of a conversation about how to make the transition effectively. There are only a couple books and dvds (that are not that popular) to cater to this instance. One could say there is a market for it.

What do you think of Bo's idea?

I just think Steve Jordan's The Groove is Here DVD should be standard issue to all players leaving drum corps and entering the world of playing drumset in bands ;)
 
The biggest difference is going to be muscle memory related.. As long as a coprs drummer can spend enough time on developing the muscle memory for kit playing, IE: looser grip, lower tuned drum skins and incorporating feet into the equation.. There's no reason why a drum corpser could'nt be great at drumset.. I general most of the Drum Corps people I know that play kit sound stiffer than desired.. However, most of the drumkit players that don't know rudiments and proper technique sound like sloppy bags of crap.. Which is better?

Someone who can do both..
 
What do you think of Bo's idea?

I've not dealt with any of Steve Jordan's material but I think it's probably a great idea. The things that helped me most were Gary Chester's The New Breed, Advanced Techniques For The Modern Drummer by Jim Chapin and 4-Way Coordination by Marvin Dahlgren and Elliot Fin. Oldies but classics and goodies. I learned enough to come out of my shell but still a long way to go. As far as movement is concerned I think Benny Greb is one of my favorites presently. He may not have as amazing chops as some other cats but he hears and takes advantage of the broad sonic spectrum that comes with the drum kit. Even the most subtle.

I will check out The Groove is Here. Probably safe to say that learning funk and jazz are two styles of playing that will help get the person out of a Drum Corps strictness and intensity it has your hands, playing, and perception.

It's hard to not be immersed and consumed by corps because the level of intensity and the level of competitiveness. It's just flat out cool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LcAoL9IgI0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dms9lOmEMYA

Incredible stuff and talent. But get behind the kit and it can be like trying to ride a bike for the first time. Vice Versa too.
 
most of the drumkit players that don't know rudiments and proper technique sound like sloppy bags of crap

LOL
fat_drummer.gif
 
Quote....My limitations on the kit are a direct result of drum corps and my strengths are as well.

I would say that if you spend as much time on drum set as you have on drum line I think you find that that is also retrains the brain. I think equal time would change that theory
 
Drumlines or school bands or just drum instruction all have a few things in common, and it will only add to your drumming. One you read drum music, two you are forced to have discipline, three like it or not you will learn sometype of chops, four these experiences teach you to have better control of your sticks, and there are probably a few more advantages to drumlines/school bands, I just can't think of them at this moment.

The trick is how you apply this learning to the drum set. That goes for anything you learn from drum teachers or drum books, stick control book, any snare book,
EVERY THING GETS APPLIED TO THE DRUM SET IN SOME WAY. The way you end up applying what you learn, is how you are going to sound on the kit and what will endup being your own drum technique.
 
i must politely disagree with the original post. Drumline is not only about the technique learned, which you are correct, can be tought on the mechanical side, but the hands and stickings that are learned in drumline are valuable, as is the experience of playing with other percussionists in a military like regimine. i do agree that it seems to have taken the feel out of some of the more recently discovered drummers who claim drumline to be their main influence, but i recently read an interview with cora coleman duhnam of Prince and the New power generation, and while she was a drumline veteran herself, her feel is really quite nice; she has a great pocket and good chops. I think my biggist mif about drumlines, if i had to find one, is that much like the Gospel chops fad going around, they can put too much of an emphasis on speed and flash, but again, that would vary from drummer to drummer, some knowing less is more, some doing more for less.
 
but the hands and stickings that are learned in drumline are valuable, as is the experience of playing with other percussionists in a military like regimine.


Totally agree with that part. I owe my rudimentary ability to drum corps and instructors. It was fun. Lots of time and dedication, sleeping in gyms and playing in school gyms, parking lots, different stadiums, many friendships and lots of instruction. I probably was in the best shape of my life too. But I still think it programs a drummer to be overly syncopated, brings machine playing to the kit, holds back free flowing improve, and can be a challenge for the hand and foot coordination. Some cats out there can adapt easily, others not so much.

Looking back I wish I would have taken more time to balance it out. I never thought of it like that in the thick of things, which is why I'm writing this thread. In a lot of ways balancing it out probably would have only helped my snare playing in corps. Your goal is to keep your spot. Lots of guys competing for the same thing too.

Bo Eder hit it on the head with mentioning the difference in style of drumline. DCI in the 90s started to turn. In the later years the style had more groove to it, it was loose, it had swing, more personality. It's not like that anymore. My experience with the cavies was much more robotic all around.
 
All that marching around with a drumset must be a killer, no?

Oh yeah. It sucks. And my back ain't getting any younger!

To further clarify what I said: That laser-like pin-point accuracy I see demonstrated with the modern drum corps players seems alot different than old skool drum corps players, like Steve Gadd. Even when I saw some rudiment demonstrations done by members of the Old Guard, the way they play their Lesson 25's seems much different then how they'd be played by a group like the Garfield Cadets - and there'd even be a difference in the way the Garfield Cadets from the 1980s played them compared to the Garfield Cadets of 2013. Apparently this is an issue of evolution and interpretation.

I was in no way implying that Steve Gadd or Steve Jordan are sloppy players. Perhaps an even better, broader statement would be that, when comparing modern drum corps to drum set players, I see a different clock ticking. And I'm not saying one is better than the other, they're just different. I enjoy both and am always amazed when I see great performances come from both types of players.

As a side note, I'm a little biased in that I enjoy drum corps from the 70s through the 80s because the snare drums just sounded more like snare drums back then. I can't get my head around what the kids like about these modern kevlar-headed snares - to me they sound atrocious. But, being an old bass drummer, the rudimental bass drums lines of today I wish we could've approached when I marched! But it's an evolution, I guess.

But perhaps the goal should be the intent. If you know you want to eventually make a living as a drumset player, then why not make that the focus? I know, I'm opening another can of worms, especially since we're all about "doing everything you can do" as a percussionist. But there's nothing wrong with saying "this is what I want to do - so this is what I will do". Hell, it worked for Buddy Rich, didn't it?

And this would explain the amount of incredible drum corps players on the planet. These people have decided that that's what they wanted to do, so they did that. Nothing wrong with that at all. Not all of them will successfully make the transition to in-demand drumset player, and that's ok. Not all drumset players will be able to walk into a drumline and be successful there, either. And isn't that ok?
 
marching band is geeky. even the drummers are uber geeks. they just put on tough faces to hide their geekness.
 
As a side note, I'm a little biased in that I enjoy drum corps from the 70s through the 80s because the snare drums just sounded more like snare drums back then

I don't know anything about military music so when Larry posted a thread about his dislike of the Kevlar sound I checked it out with fresh ears.

I quite liked it - a bit surreal, like a caricature of a snare drum sound, and I don't mean that as a bad thing. As Brent said, the increasingly mechanical nature of military drumming is in step with modern pop / rock.
 
I don't know anything about military music so when Larry posted a thread about his dislike of the Kevlar sound I checked it out with fresh ears.

I quite liked it - a bit surreal, like a caricature of a snare drum sound, and I don't mean that as a bad thing. As Brent said, the increasingly mechanical nature of military drumming is in step with modern pop / rock.

I don't like the sound and I can't stand the feel. The rebound is absurd. It's funny, because people wonder what the hell the old-timers were talking about when they muscled out every note and talked about "playing through the head." But those were different heads. On a kevlar head, you would destroy your hands in short order playing like that. It's all about bounce now. That and stick tricks. The real rudimental art form is on hiatus.
 
I don't know anything about military music so when Larry posted a thread about his dislike of the Kevlar sound I checked it out with fresh ears.

I quite liked it - a bit surreal, like a caricature of a snare drum sound, and I don't mean that as a bad thing. As Brent said, the increasingly mechanical nature of military drumming is in step with modern pop / rock.

Yeah, it's an acquired taste. Unfortunately I never acquired it. Playing on one feels very strange. It might as well be a hardwood! But corps guys can make them sound amazing. Just not my cup of tea ;)
 
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