John Bonham

Sticktrick- You're a clever guy.
Who cares about John's right foot speed? He had a pretty mean right foot- but as stated already I can easily name ten-fifteen other drummers before or during his time who had a faster right foot. Technique, chops, whatever is something that doesn't matter to the quality of the drumming. If there's a technical weakpoint, okay, sure. Not like Bohnam had one. Anyways, his drumming is great- regardless of who has a better right foot (which drummers such as Tony Williams, Art Blakey, Buddy Rich, Billy Cobham, Elvin Jones or Carmine Appice or whoever did have) his drumming stands on it's own as absolutely legendary. Regardless of who had faster hands, faster right foot, shorter hair, nicer clothes or whatever.
The point I'm trying to get at is that technique is only a means to access your creativity. It's not the be all end all. You can STILL create amazing drum parts without having the godliest right foot in the known universe. This is one of the reasons why Bonzo was such a legendary drummer. Technique is really amusical- it has nothing to do with making great drum parts. Look at Steve Jordan. Has he ever played busy music? I'm not sure, I haven't heard it. He's one of the most in demand and awesome drummers today because he has great parts. Same with Bohnam. Was he technically as virtuoistic as some of the above drummers? No. Were the drummers above better drummers than him? Depending on who you talk to, yes or no, but I love Bohnam and he's right up there with those drummers (even further than most) on my favorites list. It doesn't even matter who had more chops to me.
You'll notice if someone said something like "Elvin Jones is a better polyrhythmic player than Tony Williams" I'd probably say something like "Yes, you're right, but who REALLY cares?". Then, a discussion would follow about how he was a better polyrhythmic player than than Tony. I wouldn't ever try to assert that Tony could smoke Elvin, even if Tony was a better rock drummer, had better hands, had better licks, whatever. They're both fantastic, and I love both almost equally at different times. They're different, and they stand on their own- I don't ever feel a need to defend Tony Williams, or John Bohnam. I know what and who those two, or any drummer, are. I know what they aren't as well. I have a feeling that some of these really popular drummers are greatly overhyped by some, and it doesn't do them justice.
J- That's a great quote, everyone in every field should have that attitude, I feel. Just because you're building on someone doesn't mean they're not giants. Their work stands by itself, it doesn't even need defending.
 
Yeah Duke, you're right with what you say.

I'd like to stretch my point a little further and get away from Hands and Feet. If I REALLY think about the qualities that I appreciate most in all my drumming heroes, I think that the two most important physical parts are not Hands and Feet, but Ears and the Heart.

THATS what it takes to be a great drummer. You need big ears to really notice what the other guys in the band are doing and to hear what they demand from your drumming. You need to pay attention to all the small details of their playing. You need these ears to determine if you're too loud, too soft, too far laid back, etc. Also to realize if the sound you're getting from your drums is the way you want it to be.
You also need a big heart, because if the music you're playing is not touching you there and if all you play doesn't come from your heart, then you will be a brain-driven drummer that no one will want to listen to, because you will never ever be able to touch someone elses heart with your playing.

Hands and Feet are just the limbs that execute these things, but they should always come from your heart and lock in with what you hear with your ears.

And now back to John, Tony, Elvin or any other true musical great drummer: They all certainly had big ears and their playing really came from their heart. If all these crazy Bonhamides that are just talking about his right foot, reduce John to this foot, then they obviously just didn't get, what he was all about: Music, Soul, Heart and Ears. End of the Story.

...

Oh yeah... and I forgot about this: Balls. Thats what it also takes.
 
Yeah, I like where this is all heading. We're getting off the bull of being the fastest and getting towards the more musically complimenting.

Maybe there are quicker drummers or drummers with more chops or whatever, but who out there fits into his/her band as well as Bonham fit into Zeppelin? Actually, the whole band fit so well together, much of what they did and do outside of Zeppelin falls short in my opinion. For instance, and granted is was just a session job and an album I love, but did Dave Weckl's playing with Plant and occasionally Page on the Honeydrippers Vol. 1 album inspire anyone to rush out and pick up some drum sticks, work on vocals, or a buy a new guitar? Who would say that Bonham has more chops than Weckl (not me), but he certainly has chops: there is still alot of clean technique involved in the playing of Bonham.

Zeppelin as a band was one where each member was an excellent musician, but in addition to that, they played well together. Geez, there are so many great drummers, but not all of these guys are playing in groups where the rest of the members take care of their own individual musical business as well as the members of Zeppelin did.

BTW, I saw a post earlier that sort of bashed Plant a little. Plant is an excellent musician. His rhythm, dynamics, his feel for lyrics, the way he chops words and holds phrases out - you can tell he likes to cut his stuff from the same cloth as guys like James Brown. Plant and Bonham gave Zeppelin it's sound and feel as much as anyone has given a band anything.

Another thing I'd add is that Bonham wasn't a drummer who was out cooking a quiche when simple srambled eggs would do. First, he did what the music called for and what his band needed - throwing a little personal spice and taste in at the same time and showing off occasionally just to make sure no one forgot he was back there helping to hold down the fort with Jones.

When I think about a good drummer when compared to someone else, I don't just look at a person's playing. Most of us can move our hands and feet pretty fast in a coordinated effort over our instrument. However, how many of us and how many of the drummers that get mentioned as being "better" than Bonham can help create and sit in a pocket as tightly, be musically supportive, stand out in a group's sound without being completely dominant, and fit into the musical situations in which we find ourselves as well or better than Bonham did. If I could do that, I'd be pretty happy even if I didn't have broken bass drum triplets at quarter note = 180 or a 4 voice polythm going on.

I'm not saying that every person that plays simple stuff necessarily falls into the Bonham category as far as feel and such either. There are alot of professional recordings where the stuff is as simple or simpler than some of Bonham's playing that does not even come close to being as tight or supportive or fit into the group's tapestry of sound as well as Bonham's playing fits into Zeppelin's or give a band such a fat, comfortable, broad base over which to play. Charlie Watt's is play's pretty straight ahead ideas. Can anyone imagine his sound as part of Zeppelin? I can't, but he fits in whith the Stones very well.

Bottom Line
I wonder if a few replies to this post by could possibly give a list of drummers people think sat or sit so well with the band or bands they play/played in? I'd be much more interested in investigating and listening to drummers within groups on that list than I would a list of drummers who have faster feet or the quickest paradiddles or whatever. Who do you think fits in as well as or bettern than Bonham did with Zeppelin? Whose drum sound do you think is as signature as Bonham's and at the same time is backed up by a group where nearly every member's sound is as signature to the sound of the group without a single sound being completely dominant? Hit me...

Thanks in advance for any info you give.
 
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only guy i can think of is jimmy chamberlin. his parts just slide perfectly into pumpkins music. i was thinking of keith moon, but he almost seems a tad too obvious.
 
I can easily name ten-fifteen other drummers before or during his time who had a faster right foot.
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.
 
Bonham to the moon said:
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.

I want to see this too.

Name and links, mp3s.

15 people I'm waiting for.
 
Bonham to the moon said:
alrite, i can agree with most of what your saying but that statement is absolutely rediculous, please name 15 people that BEFORE OR DURING his time had a faster right foot. And please provide some examples of their playing. I pretty much exclusively listen to stuff before 1980, and i havent heard anybody touch bonham in his right foot speed, let alone power.

And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?
 
finnhiggins said:
And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?

I agree with you on that one reguarding Matt Chamberlain. Wonder stuff he does on the latest Morrissey album.
 
And in one fell swoop, the discussion returns to the banal.

Serious, BTM - do you really, really think it is essential for your man Bonham to be The Fastest, The Most Powerful? Can't he just be an amazing musician? My favourite studio drummer around today is Matt Chamberlain. Does that mean I have to argue that his hands are better than Vinnie's? No! I just happen to like his stuff more.

So, I guess the ultimate answer is: Who cares? And if so, why?

well i didnt want to go back to this, but i couldnt let that go. I dont care if bonham did have the fastest right foot, but the fact is, is that he did have an extrmemly fast right foot and me being a a huge bonham fan, its completely false to say that at the time there were 15 guys that had a faster right foot. Im ready to be preoven wrong, if he can give names of 10-15 people and some examples then i'll shut up, but until then thats absolutely rediculous to say.
 
BTTM and fixmejesus- I will PM you both because I don't want to talk about other drummers much more.
You guys are still missing the point. It doesn't even MATTER who's faster. Why split hairs about it? All are great!
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?
 
theduke86 said:
I thought I'd return this discussion to John Bonham. I have a question. How do you guys all count the drum intro to Rock and Roll?

I transcribed it as follows:

RockandRollIntro.JPG


I'm not sure, but I think on the album version, he's stricter about playing a locked hands shuffle through the tune, but on the live stuff I think he cuts the snare down to just the backbeats and some ghosted, locked hands here and there.

As far as counting it, I think the above is the most logical. I've seen transcriptions and tabs that add a 2/4 bar or something right before the band comes in to make up for an entrance that starts right on 1 of the first bar and ends with a crash right on a downbeat when the band comes in. I definitely hear the crash on the upbeat (just before the band enters on the downbeat) plus I don't think that it's logical to have a bar of 2/4 before the band comes in when the rest of the tune is in 4/4.

Incidentally, I've seen published transcriptions that so something similar on Misty Mountain Hop. One actually adds a bar on 9/8 or something. For me, I don't think Zeppelin, even as rhythmically sound as they were, would do something like that on a tune like Misty or add a 2/4 bar before the band enters on Rock and Roll. It's far more logical to transcribe the intro with no barlines and begin counting backwards if necessary to figure out where the intro starts with respect to the band coming in. Then you end up with something like the above graphic: an entrance in the middle of a pick-up bar to a 4 bar intro - very logical, very straight forward, and very likely.

BYW, on the studio version during the verse parts, I hear a few different bass drum variations (which I have transcribed), but through it all, Bonham plays a heavier downbeat when riding on the hi-hat. I've seen transciptions that have him playing just quarters while riding on the hih-hat, but I don't hear it that way. Also, on some of the live videos, you can catch a glimpse of his stick and it's definately articulating two attacks (the downbeat and the upbeat), so the sort of two attacks for the price of one seems like a reasonable technique to employ on this shuffle groove.

Of course, I am probably totally wrong, but hopefully someone will correct me and I can amend my transcription and be better for it. :)

Thanks for the opportunity to bring this discussion back to music. Oh, and my feet are not very fast (yet), so I have to make up for it by studying the people whose music I enjoy so that someday I'll be a better musican AND my feet will be faster. :)
 
fixmejesus said:
I want to see this too.

Name and links, mp3s.

15 people I'm waiting for.


Read my first post. Think about it. I have a question for you: Why do you care about this? Does it make Johns accomplishments better if there aren't any drummer with a faster right foot? Does it make them worse if there are? Will you enjoy Zeppelins music more or less if you know exactly?

I still don't understand why so many people on this whole forum confuse drumming and music with sports. You wanna compete? Go play soccer or become a runner.

I also don't understand this whole "my favorite drummer is better than yours" attitude. Cut the crap guys, it's annoying as hell. There are so many great drummers.... there is so much great music....

Why argue in such pointless ways about such nonsense?

Maybe I also get this whole Discussion Forum idea wrong - that's why I left this forum for quite some time and it's the reason why I'm about to leave once more.

Finn - we'll stay in touch anyway!
 
That looks like a pretty sound transcription. Really the best way of counting it is to feel it, I can't think of a strict way of doing it personally but then again theory never has been my strong point.

For an interesting variation on the introduction, I play the off-beat snare hits as bass notes so it goes something like this:

(S) = Snare (B) = Bass

SbbSbSbbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbSbS

Something along those lines. It's too late to transcribe it properly but it sounds good if your right foot can keep up.

EDIT: StickTrick I entirely and utterly agree with you. Music is not a competition, stop making it one. BTTM I remember you used to do this all the time and it really got on my nerves.
 
Mediocrefunkybeat said:
For an interesting variation on the introduction, I play the off-beat snare hits as bass notes so it goes something like this:

(S) = Snare (B) = Bass

SbbSbSbbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbbSbSbSbS

Something along those lines. It's too late to transcribe it properly but it sounds good if your right foot can keep up..
That's cool - I'll try it that way. At one time I experimented with it along those lines, but I couln't keep the feel relaxed. To be honest, I haven't tried it in quite a while and maybe it would be OK now.
 
I can't always get it down to be entirely fair, it's a tricky one and it's really high energy but it feels great when you pull it off. I only do it because it's the way I first listened (incorrectly) to the song. It's a great introduction, good luck with it.
 
Here's the intro to Mist Mountain Hop that I mentioned above as I hear it. I have the book "Best of Led Zeppelin Drums" and if I remember correctly it has a bar of 9/8 before the band comes in. The transcriber must have heard the upbeat ostenato played by Jones as coming in on the downbeat. I don't hear it that way and I think the below way is much more likely. Again, this is my own take:

MistyMountainHopIntro.JPG


Does anyone else hear it this way or a different way?

Also, the groove Bonham plays here to me is very much like the groove he plays for Rock and Roll. The Misty groove is slower than Rock and Roll and there are no locked hands between snare and riding hi-hat, but I believe he employes that shuffle feel in riding the hi-hat where the first attack (on the downbeat) is stronger and the second attack (on the upbeat) is more of a bounce or more of a two for the price of one type thing. A very traditional thing for an R&B drummer to employ, so it's a very likely technique to be part of Bonham's repetoire in my opinion. When you watch the live stuff, you can see this attack and you can see how it's a flick of the wrist technique (sort of - it's actually easier to see or demo than to explain). His bass drum comping in both tunes is very similar as I hear it too.
 
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I hear an anacrusis, but by definition that's the upbeat. Interesting...
 
It's four measures with two added beats. In your mind, you can add the two extra beats at the front, or the end. Or, if you're like me, I never count anything, ever, anyway.
 
Coolmanchu- Those transcriptions are sweet. I never really heard rock and roll that way. I used to count it starting it on one... I think it would roll out on the and of 2 on the last bar. You're a smart guy. I dig that misty mountain hop one too.
 
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