My rant on today's pop music

I don't really have a problem with today's pop music, but that's probably because I don't involve myself in it at all. It really makes me cringe that "pop music" is so influenced by hip-hop. I guess it comes down to that lack of humanity in the music, like has been said earlier. I call it robot music... made by and for... robots.
But again, when I start to cringe, I just remove myself from it and pop in a Beatles record or something and enjoy some good "pop". People like what they like, and that's fine. I like what I like and try not to criticize other's interests... even though I can't make sense of them sometimes!
 
Andy, I think you have just made the transition from valued member to troll :) Larry, yes, he has the backbeat backwards haha
Really? My stuff is that contentious? Was I ever a valued member? Ok, I admit it, it's kinda fun to tweak the nipples of established thinking. Similar to lighting the blue touch paper on a firework, you know something's going to explode, just not sure when.

Of course, my praise post was as sarcastic as it gets, but I think it's worth limiting our fire to mainstream record company produced crap. Not all music that aspires to be or becomes POPular is terrible. Take http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0bwN-9GM14 as the best example I've come across in years!
 
Yep Andy, your sparkling little irony-fest is worth repeating ...

ALL modern music is superb, especially everything mainstream. I love how clean & precise everything is these days. No more crappy distorted guitar or horrible glassy cymbals, & ALL the singers are so good. Modern drum sounds are so powerful too, not like those old empty boingy things I used to hear.

Yes, the formula-weavers should be the target for any crap - and the "artists" ignored. After all, the flak being given to Rebecca Black will probably make her a multi-millionaire. Go figure. Her true place should be singing in school shows.

But Project RnL as pop? Pop prog fusion?? Nowhere near as many views as RB.

Of course you're a valued member ... cymbal geek, engineering consultant and the Marcia Hines of Drummerworld Idol! (the nice, encouraging judge).
 
Marcia Hines? Never heard of her. Is she a judge on one of these singing competitions that I pretend not to watch?

She was the nice judge on Oz Idol. No idea if she's still doing it - I got out of touch after the second series.

When I watched it I found most of the singers too cookie-cutter, but I was super impressed with Guy Sebastian's voice when he sang some soul classics on the show. His raspy voice reminded me a bit of Terence Trent D'arby (I'm a sucker for male singers with a bit of rasp).

Unfortunately, the material he chose - or was chosen for him - after winning the show was disappointing.
 
It really makes me cringe that "pop music" is so influenced by hip-hop. I guess it comes down to that lack of humanity in the music, like has been said earlier. I call it robot music... made by and for... robots.

Made by robots, for robots? I'd like to see that!!

I'm not saying anyone has to like anything. But it's important to understand that there's humanity in any art, and the creators of this 'robot' music have as much passion for what they do as, let's say, Neil Peart and Mickey Hart have for what they do. For those drummers, playing drums is not just hitting them, and for most modern music producers and artists, making music is not just pushing buttons. There's a lot of creativity and thought that goes into making most pop/rap/dance tracks. Just because a producer didn't physically play a bass, or guitar, or drums, doesn't mean he clicked a mouse and out popped a track!

Let's show particular respect to arguably the most mindless of those genres: dance. As drummers, do we actually listen to what goes into those tracks, or do we just think it's someone pressing a few keys on their midi controller and calling it a drum part? Well, I have to listen. Part of my primary gig is backwards-engineering such tracks in order to recreate the drum & percussion parts, and I can assure you that more often than not, those parts are well thought out, involve creative sounds and different tunings, and may have a dozen sneaky little things going on that contribute to the groove of the track. These are things that a live drummer wouldn't do, and couldn't do.

I'm not asking anyone to like those songs and genres, but as musicians, and especially as drummers, let's show some respect for the work that goes into the majority of these tracks. It's the same as not liking jazz, for example. You still have the respect the players for what they do.

Bermuda
 
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Whenever I get home from my local healthclub that insists we all hear modern pop music with drum machines and autotune pop princesses sugary lyrics, I have to remind myself that there was a time when real musicians played real instruments. They played these instruments with their own hands and used creative song formats. The extensive use of dynamics, melody and harmony. Did I mention dynamics?

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fi-sUOM8io&feature=related
 
Whenever I get home from my local healthclub that insists we all hear modern pop music with drum machines and autotune pop princesses sugary lyrics, I have to remind myself that there was a time when real musicians played real instruments. They played these instruments with their own hands and used creative song formats. The extensive use of dynamics, melody and harmony. Did I mention dynamics?

Here's an example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fi-sUOM8io&feature=related

Feeling nostalgic . . I remember channel surfing late at night when this song came out to find it. At the time, I had no idea who Yes was, although I remember hearing the Roundabout edit single on WCBS AM back in the car with my folks. This is a snog that will do that, and there is not many of them and few today.

I hear what Bermuda is saying, and posted a link to a documentary called Copyright Criminals on the main page. It really gives a good both sides view of hip-hop and sampling and the mechanization of modern music. You can't just shut down to certain types of music because it is not your thing. On the other hand, I don't think that it is a good thing in any sense of the word that we have taken musicians out of the process of making popular music. In the days of the great studio bands, the studio musicians put a lot of affect into the interpretation and composition of the song. As a songwriter, that is one thing I have learned. In the hands of Booker T and the MG's, one of my tunes would have been a hit.

You've got me listening to Yes today. Now Angus Young has nothing on Steve Howe: 8:02

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jhk5MEugJY&NR=1
 
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Made by robots, for robots? I'd like to see that!!

I'm not saying anyone has to like anything. But it's important to understand that there's humanity in any art, and the creators of this 'robot' music have as much passion for what they do as, let's say, Neil Peart and Mickey Hart have for what they do. For those drummers, playing drums is not just hitting them, and for most modern music producers and artists, making music is not just pushing buttons. There's a lot of creativity and thought that goes into making most pop/rap/dance tracks. Just because a producer didn't physically play a bass, or guitar, or drums, doesn't mean he clicked a mouse and popped a track.

Let's show particular respect to arguably the most mindless of those genres: dance. As drummers, do we actually listen to what goes into those tracks, or do we just think it's someone pressing a few keys on their midi controller and calling it a drum part? Well, I have to listen. Part of my primary gig is backwards-engineering such tracks in order to recreate the drum & percussion parts, and I can assure you that more often than not, those parts are well thought out, involve creative sounds and different tunings, and may have a dozen sneaky little things going on that contribute to the groove of the track. These are things that a live drummer wouldn't do, and couldn't do.

I'm not asking anyone to like those songs and genres, but as musicians, and especially as drummers, let's show some respect for the work that goes into the majority of these tracks. It's the same as not liking jazz, for example. You still have the respect the players for what they do.

Bermuda

I can buy what you're saying to a point.

Some programing does show a lot of artistic work went into it. The first NIN nails album comes to mind, as do other albums where their was a thought process.

On the other hand, there are plenty of such recordings where the thought process isn't there. Either because it's a simple part, or (as often happens), the parts were simply taken from a stock source.

There are thousands of pre-recorded drum CDs out there for producers to purchase, not to mention thousands of pre-programmed beats and fills available via midi that come with the average drum machine or software package or can be found online.

When I was doing the Industrial Rock band, I had a handful of disks of loops, each one containing hundreds of drum and percussion parts. And those parts from the few discs I own are clearly in other songs that I have heard on the radio. Now figure that was over 10 years ago, and there have been thousands of new discs of pre-fab stuff since then.

When my bass player sends me demos of songs he's written, the drums parts he's programmed can be pretty insane, but he's not actually programming anything, he's just cut and pasting from a pre-fab list of midi parts.

And if you layer two or three pre-fab parts, yes, you can create some really insane and groovy drum parts. But that doesn't mean there was a lot of hours of thought put into the process. Cut, paste, oh hey, that sounds good, OK, we'll use that.
 
You can't just shut down to certain types of music because it is not your thing.

Unfortunately, too many people dismiss things simply because they don't happen to like them. Cars, women, TV show, drum brands... music. There's got to be a certain amount of "live and let live" or people just go nuts.

On the other hand, I don't think that it is a good thing in any sense of the word that we have taken musicians out of the process of making popular music. In the days of the great studio bands, the studio musicians put a lot of affect into the interpretation and composition of the song. As a songwriter, that is one thing I have learned. In the hands of Booker T and the MG's, one of my tunes would have been a hit.

But songwriters and musicians playing instruments are two different animals. While musicians aren't always so prevelant in making modern music - let's not forget that at least one person has to be able to play keyboards - songwriters still exist, and are largely making a killing on modern tracks where the artist doesn't always write their lyrics or music. As a songwriter, you're supremely employable: not every song may need musicians, but every song needs at least one writer.

My real concern is that drummers resent and dislike a lot of music because there's not a live drummer on there, as if that 1) invalidates the music (a rather cynical position) or 2) takes a gig away from them (a rather self-serving and presumptuous position!)

I was thoroughly amused by drummers in the early '80s who were convinced their careers were over because the Linn Drum and other machines had become so fashionable. "Machines are replacing us! Quick, make up some 'Drum machines have no soul' bumper stickers!" Sheesh. Guess what - when machines became the vogue, I bought a machine! And to this day, I don't know of any drummers who were put out of work by it. And I've never felt like any less of a drummer just because I sequenced a part rather than physically playing it. It's all part of the music-making process. Maybe the album credit reads drum programming, but so what?

Bermuda
 
On the other hand, there are plenty of such recordings where the thought process isn't there. Either because it's a simple part, or (as often happens), the parts were simply taken from a stock source.

The thought process doesn't always exist on completely live recordings, either. A real person is always ultimately responsible for a track's quality on any level.

There are thousands of pre-recorded drum CDs out there for producers to purchase, not to mention thousands of pre-programmed beats and fills available via midi that come with the average drum machine or software package or can be found online.

If we're talking sounds, the same can be said for guitar players who happen to own the same guitars and stomp boxes as the next guy. What makes them different from each other? The notes they play. The bending. The arrangement. The timing and inflections. It's not just the sounds.

The same goes for modern music producers, who also strive to not use stock sounds, and have limitless tools to create impossible sounds. Sure we're hearing a resurgence in classic drum machine sounds, but the majority of drum sounds out there are unique to the recordings they appear on.

I'm dissecting a song right now, and I'm telling you, some of these sounds are just ridiculous. It's not even a question of how did they do that, it's how am I gonna do that?!

Like it or not, ya gotta give 'em their props.

Bermuda
 
But it's important to understand that there's humanity in any art, and the creators of this 'robot' music have as much passion for what they do


I would agree to most of what bermuda says except maybe this one line. I am afraid most of their passion lies in the money. Lets churn them out as fast as we can because the listeners mood changes so fast that yesterdays cool is todays, bleh.

In my mind, The day the music died, was immediately after the initial British Invasion. The BeaTles longish hair led to let's see how long we can make our hair, and lets see how loud we can be. "Standing in the Shadows of Motown", was the beginning of the end.
 
I remember being disappointed when Stevie Wonder came out with I Just Called to Say I Love You, which was all synthesizer and drum tracks. Yet compared to most of today's pop songs, it sounds pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwOU3bnuU0k
I don't think the synth tracks and drum machine are what's wrong with that song. If it was played with more conventional instruments, I think it would still be cheesy. But if Superstition or I Wish were played with electronic instruments, they would still be awesome, imo (with the concession that nothing could top the originals). As an example, here is a remix of Superstition:

http://soundcloud.com/juwee/stevie-wonder-superstition-funkanomics-remix

So, while it has decidedly electronic sound, it's still really good, because at the root of it, Superstition is just a way better song than I Just Called To Say I Love You.
 
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But if Superstition or I Wish was played with electronic instruments, they would still be awesome... So, while it has decidedly electronic sound, it's still really good, because at the root of it, Superstition is just a way better song than I Just Called To Say I Love You.

That's basically what I've been saying - to judge a song on its merits as a song, and not whether it fits in a preferred genre, or if there's a live drummer on it, or how many synths or samples were involved in creating it, or if the beat was designed for dancing, or if a pop tart or boy band or rapper is at the mic.

People need to keep a more open mind, not stereotype, and then they can decide if they don't like a song when they hear it. You can't pre-judge. It doesn't work. I'm guessing that most of the folks here who resent pop or dance or whatever, haven't really heard enough of it to justify their position against an entire genre.

Suppose somebody said they resent your favorite genre, or band, or drummer, and you know they really don't know enough about the music or players to correctly arrive at their conclusion. For example, suppose I said "I hate jazz, what a bunch of unstructured self-indulgent self-important crap." And someone asks "Do you have any jazz albums? Have you seen live jazz at a club, or TV, or heard it on the radio? Are you familiar with any of the jazz greats?" and I say "No, I just remember hearing some boring, rambling be-bop once, no real beat to speak of, and I didn't like it. So I hate jazz."

I dare say the ensuing conversation would be more heated than this one!

Bermuda
 
Made by robots, for robots? I'd like to see that!!

I'm not saying anyone has to like anything. But it's important to understand that there's humanity in any art, and the creators of this 'robot' music have as much passion for what they do as, let's say, Neil Peart and Mickey Hart have for what they do. For those drummers, playing drums is not just hitting them, and for most modern music producers and artists, making music is not just pushing buttons. There's a lot of creativity and thought that goes into making most pop/rap/dance tracks. Just because a producer didn't physically play a bass, or guitar, or drums, doesn't mean he clicked a mouse and out popped a track!

Let's show particular respect to arguably the most mindless of those genres: dance. As drummers, do we actually listen to what goes into those tracks, or do we just think it's someone pressing a few keys on their midi controller and calling it a drum part? Well, I have to listen. Part of my primary gig is backwards-engineering such tracks in order to recreate the drum & percussion parts, and I can assure you that more often than not, those parts are well thought out, involve creative sounds and different tunings, and may have a dozen sneaky little things going on that contribute to the groove of the track. These are things that a live drummer wouldn't do, and couldn't do.

I'm not asking anyone to like those songs and genres, but as musicians, and especially as drummers, let's show some respect for the work that goes into the majority of these tracks. It's the same as not liking jazz, for example. You still have the respect the players for what they do.

Bermuda

What I meant by robot music is that machines are the biggest tool to create the music, and to me, it just sounds like something that would cater more to a robot, with the repititious beat, sometimes embarrassingly simple melodies (ie. a song that literally has 3 octaves as the melody and thats it), and vocals that sound like robots (autotune to the max). And I agree with you that these people are into their thing just as I am into mine, but that's not really where I was going with it. Like I said, people like what they like, and that's fine. I like what I like and try not to criticize other's interests. I'm pretty open to a lot of things, but I can also recognize regurgitated repackaged radio garbage when I hear it and no matter what I do, I can't get into it or appreciate it. Plus, I find myself with PLENTY of music to catch up on that was recorded before I was born to keep me busy. But overall, I just don't pay attention to what radio is trying to convince me is cool or whatever. That goes for rock or anything else, not just pop or hip-hop... anyone seen "They Live"?

And yes, I would love to see real robots making music... or cybernetic organisms, whatever they prefer.
 
That's basically what I've been saying - to judge a song on its merits as a song, and not whether it fits in a preferred genre, or if there's a live drummer on it, or how many synths or samples were involved in creating it, or if the beat was designed for dancing, or if a pop tart or boy band or rapper is at the mic.



Bermuda

The sanctity of genre in today's world is kind of silly. Even hip-hop can be better understood if you view sampling as a form of covering a tune. There is a sanctity for classic rock perfectionism that is even more problematic. I do remember my older friends saying the same thing about synth pop in the eighties, it was soulless. But now my younger friends who grew up listening to that, love it. there is certainly a generational aspect to this. the way jazz guys ragged ragged on rock n roll or the older guys ragged on led Zeppelin. For every generation, great music dies at a specific time in history. That time is the point at which that generation turns 18.
 
My real concern is that drummers resent and dislike a lot of music because there's not a live drummer on there, as if that 1) invalidates the music (a rather cynical position)

When I was a teen, I had the attitude.

Now though, if I had to make list of my all time favorite albums, there would be a few albums that had drum machines with no sign of a live drummer.
Good music is good music.

I'm dissecting a song right now, and I'm telling you, some of these sounds are just ridiculous. It's not even a question of how did they do that, it's how am I gonna do that?!

Like it or not, ya gotta give 'em their props.

In no way am I 100% disagreeing with you. Many tracks are done that way.

But the popularity of pre-fab drum parts available for purchase makes it quite clear a lot of tracks are not.
 
There was a resurgence of classic R and B tracks with Amy Winehouse and Buffy about that time. I also really liked the Linda Perry song Beautiful that Christina Aguilera did.
 
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