Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

Mozart? That hack??

Seriously (?) Ken, that summary is right on the money. Just as well you didn't bring that out earlier or we wouldn't have had all this fun.

Stan, I can't help it. I was Born To Be Mild.
 
it's amazing to me that this discussion never goes any where. Abe, can now start another thread. are jazz listeners that most rigorous about their defense of the genre

Ken, we dont even need a coherent thought. If the thread title read sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha, it would run into 5 pages of jabber here.

Now isnt that amazing! A so called sidelined, mothballed genre that noboby really gets into, and is supposedly dead, gets the highest ratings, involvement, and passionate comment around here.

I think the epic BIG JAZZ THREAD and the DOUBLE PEDAL thread are the WAR and PEACE of Drummerworld.
 
Ken, we dont even need a coherent thought. If the thread title read sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha, it would run into 5 pages of jabber here.

LOL. Now that you mention it, I don't care for sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha. Anyone with taste knowns it's not real sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjhaHA!

Now isnt that amazing! A so called sidelined, mothballed genre that noboby really gets into, and is supposedly dead, gets the highest ratings, involvement, and passionate comment around here.

It's be be expected since we are sidelined, mothballed people who noboby really gets into ... aka drummers :)
 
Hey guys, been away for a few days and come back to a monster thread. Great! Lots of love and getting up each others ass/arse's. That's quite worrying. Ah well, as I'm the guy with the least knowledge round here, & as the Irish say, I'm just here for the crack!
 
I am not the jazz drummer that Stan is, and anyway musicians are always getting up each others' ass.

But all of us here have a lot more in common than not. So, let's find what it is that we all have in common, I say. And you know what? We're still going to get up each other's ass!

OK, What do I have in common with the rest of you? lets see;

1) I listen to all styles of music from Classical to Hip-Hop. I like music, period.

2) I play Rock, R&B, Country, and Contemporary Bluegrass with bands. Those are the musical styles that I am most comfortable with.

3) I play Jazz privately for fun and insight. I sit down with some jazz musicians now and then to improv and jam. I don't play Jazz for an audience. I play Jazz at what I would call a mid-intermediate level. I have learned a great deal from Jazz and I incorporate some of what I have learned into the music that I play.

4) I take my playing seriously. I study and learn all that I can with the free time that I have available to me.

5) I feel that music is all about artistic expression and every musician should be free to express themselves in the way that they see fit.
I don't want to be a judge of anyone. If I don't like what is being played, I simply don't say anything and I don't listen.
 
Ken, we dont even need a coherent thought. If the thread title read sdkfjhsfvnbscmvnbJAZZaksjskjdhlasdjha, it would run into 5 pages of jabber here.

Now isnt that amazing! A so called sidelined, mothballed genre that nobody really gets into, and is supposedly dead, gets the highest ratings, involvement, and passionate comment around here.

I think the epic BIG JAZZ THREAD and the DOUBLE PEDAL thread are the WAR and PEACE of Drummerworld.

We have over 2,000 views. We must be doing something right.:)

Maybe we should start to charge for the show, get it up on Skype and wear make-up and funny costumes. Can anyone breadth fire, spit blood or chop their head in a guillotine?

On a serious note, from someone who is overly educated and perhaps overly critical, I believe one has to develop a critical faculty to excel as a musician. Being someone who is overly educated, I can tell you that it is the one thing in this country that people look down on and it is a shame. Maybe if people developed a little criticism, these mediocre talents would get less of the focus, and that's all I would really say, that they should get LESS focus, which also means less of their share of the pie.


I'll edit this post to say what I really mean and open up the discussion to the real issue at hand.

why pick on Bob? because in Bob's posts I see the answer to the question being posed. Bob is criticizing Metheny on two grounds:

1) artist should have the freedom for self-expression and that freedom should be unencumbered.

2) he does not see a value in judging someone else's work.

On the first ground one would have to say that this is a constitutional question that Bob has proposed. I don't think that Metheny is addressing a constitutional issue at all. I don't think anyone here is and the closest thing to such is Jay's allusion to Ayn Rand and his libertarian views that obviously come through his posts. It can't be a constitutional question because if it were, then Metheny has a constitutional right to state his opinion. So as much s someone saying this is a constitutional issue has the right to state his opinion, it dies not get to the heart of the matter.

Obviously we don't want the state to tell us who or what we should listen to. When it comes to the marketplace, "caveat emptor." But what about McDonald's advertising "A Big Mac meal supersized is great nutrition for all involved. There is no better meal that you could have ". Would then people not say that they are misleading the public? If someone would to step-up and say, "Hey, that is just wrong. This stuff'll kill ya." would we then say that this guy is too critical and interfering with McDonald's right to free speech? I would think not. If someone is saying that his music is something that it is not, isn't he guilty of the same infringement of the truth? If not, Why is music different? Why is it held to a lesser standard than eating?


2) The second statement goes to the heart of the matter. This question is one of the oldest in the history of human thought. Plato spent his life making the distinction between truth and falsehood. He wanted to limit music and wanted strict controls on it for the very reason we are discussing. That belief has followed man through out history, until we decided that freedom of expression was a basic right. Hey, it's the first one. So Glenn Beck gets to speak his peace even though his rhetoric is based on convoluted logic that any first year philosophy student could see through. People not being able to see through it was the fundamental problem that Plato saw. How much intelligence do you have at a Tea Party rally?

The only counter to misguided rhetoric is for someone to say. 'You know, this just ain't right." Metheny saying it is not infringing on Kenny G's First amendment right; but his criticism will limit the amount of BS he can get away with in the public square. And that is the only correction you have in a free market society, for people to speak up and say, "I am not going to let you tear down this forest." "I am not going to let you pollute this lake." You know, you're music is not really jazz. "

It's kind of a mute point because Kenny really no longer matters. He doesn't garner the type of fame he had ten years ago. Polly was right. I looked at Best Buy today and he is in the jazz section; that is new. But there isn't a sleeve for him at Target. So he's been relegated to the corner shelf, the jazz shelf, the one where nobody goes. Poor Kenny, he may have gotten what he wanted after all.

I think if Smooth Jazz was called instrumental R and B, purists would have less trouble with it. It borrows its improvisation from jazz but it really has more in common with EWF, Stevie Wonder and Steely Dan, and we all love that stuff, so Smooth R and B is great, isn't it?
 
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On a serious note, from someone who is overly educated and perhaps overly critical, I believe one has to develop a critical faculty to excel as a musician. Being someone who is overly educated, I can tell you that it is the one thing in this country that people look down on and it is a shame. Maybe if people developed a little criticism, these mediocre talents would get less of the focus, and that's all I would really say, that they should get LESS focus, which also means less of their share of the pie.
That's interesting Ken, Some of the most highly educated people that I know are the softest spoken when it comes to criticizing others. They don't see the need to belittle because they are confident and secure in their own knowledge and ability. They have nothing to prove.
 
That's interesting Ken, Some of the most highly educated people that I know are the softest spoken when it comes to criticizing others. They don't see the need to belittle because they are confident and secure in their own knowledge and ability. They have nothing to prove.

Bob, is that a 'criticism' of me?

the bottom line is that you are wrong.
 
Ah Ken, you are a treasure. I never thought of that perspective. I'm wondering if what you're talking about is less like protesting about deforestation as lobbying for a beautiful old building to be placed under the protection of the Heritage Act. In a way, yes, in another way no (because jazz is a living and evolving thing). Then there's standard rationalism question - is an art from that cannot win enough hearts and minds worthy of protection (apart from in terms of heritage) ... the argument being that relevance and quality should decide. Trouble is those pesky marketeers and uneven playing fields.

Just thinking aloud. I'm at work at the moment so the parallels are a bit complex for me to wade through at morning tea but, like Arnie, I'll be back :)

KIS & Abe - maybe a radio show? I have a great face for radio!
 
Then there's standard rationalism question - is an art from that cannot win enough hearts and minds worthy of protection (apart from in terms of heritage) ... the argument being that relevance and quality should decide. Trouble is those pesky marketeers and uneven playing fields.

Polly, this is such the battle going on now in the states, and behind it is the notion, Are people who are not smart enough to get health insurance worthy of being saved in the first place when they get ill? Darwin lives . . .lol
 
Bob, is that a 'criticism' of me?

the bottom line is that you are wrong.
It was meant as a joke Ken! Sorry if it didn't translate.
Seriously, I am more critical of myself than I am of others. Personal goals mean more to me than what I think of others.
 
It was meant as a joke Ken! Sorry if it didn't translate.
Seriously, I am more critical of myself than I am of others. Personal goals mean more to me than what I think of others.

Oh, Bob, you made a critical remark. Don't try to get out of it now. :)

I know what you mean. I am one of the most overly-critical people, and never like my playing; but I'm a wok in progress so that may be a good thing.

My remark about being wrong was meant to be taken as figuratively, as in Metheny is saying that Kenny is wrong, and I am saying that you are wrong. That is the whole crux of the point. You can say to someone "you are just wrong." What is jazz? These questions are not easy to answer; but it is Pat Metheny defining it, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
 
Oh, Bob, you made a critical remark. Don't try to get out of it now. :)

I know what you mean. I am one of the most overly-critical people, and never like my playing; but I'm a wok in progress so that may be a good thing.

My remark about being wrong was meant to be taken as figuratively, as in Metheny is saying that Kenny is wrong, and I am saying that you are wrong. That is the whole crux of the point. You can say to someone "you are just wrong." What is jazz? These questions are not easy to answer; but it is Pat Metheny defining it, and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
I really did mean it to make a point in a humorous way.

We all know that music popularity is not all about musical content and talent.
Here was kenny G. Just a guy playing his music. (Not the best music, Just music)
Someone in the recording biz spotted him and they decided that he could be produced and sold.
Along came a producer who said, "Come to the studio and record on our dime."
Kenny said, "Yes" and signed a contract.
Kenny recorded, They marketed, Kenny and the company made lots of cash.

You would have done the same thing!
 
See, I don't see how Kenny G is "wrong," I just don't. Obviously for a lot of people he's "right," just like for lot of people the Black Eyed Peas are "right."

Joe Lovano is one of the best jazz saxophone players out there, he's doing well with his career and he's also a hell of nice guy, and he doesn't seem to give a row of pins about Kenny G.

Why Pat Metheny does is his business, of course, but Metheny's done very, very well for himself, he's played his music on his own terms and he's made a good bit of money doing it.

You know. Nobody else's success in any way diminishes your own efforts or achievements. Okay, American society is pretty plastic and mediocre but that doesn't at all have to reflect or impact on what you're about. Who would want it to?

Anyway, people have been saying how stupid society is getting for thousands of years. I think you have to be very firm and very sure about what it is that you want to and then be happy with what you've achieved.
 
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This is also the case with the simple music that I play with The String Band.
The most requested song that we play is a stupid tune called Head Like a River Stone.
Rob wrote it in about ten minutes one night when we all had to many beers. We played it as a joke the first time that we preformed it at a party.
Musical content has nothing to do with what people like!

People like what they like!
 
Jay, you are wrong, too. :)

The idea is that it is misguided to call Kenny G's music jazz. To call it jazz is wrong, just like calling a Cellica a Cadillac is wrong. You may prefer to drive a Cellica; but that still does not make it a Cadillac. It's that simple.

As far as Kenny's success the question really has nothing to do with it. But honestly Jay. do you really think that calling Kenny G's music jazz made a heap of difference for the jazz market. Did he sell more Kind of Blue records. maybe. But it seems what it does is give anyone who defends Kenny G ample ground to call anyone who doesn't a jazz snob.:)

Pat alludes to the greater implication of Kenny playing with the Louie film. It would be interesting to see what people believe some of those greater implications were, especially now that ten years have passed. In those ten years, you had the establishment of JALC, so now everyone has Wynton to hate. :)
 
The words Truth and Advertising have never been synonymous.
Let the buyer beware.
Why should the music industry be any different?
Why should we be surprised?
 
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