Thanks for posting that clip Arky. Just came across a horrendous quality video of the same clip on FB the other day- this ones much better.wildbill,
from the moment you use (or: discover) ankle motion things (speed) will change significantly... This will be the time for you to actually play 200+ bpm (16th notes)! It can be a matter of weeks to get there (depending on what/how you're practicing). Look for 'ankle motion' on YouTube to get a better idea if it's unclear to you ATM.
Now this is completely ridiculous, but a few extreme drummers use quad pedals to hit speeds of well above 300 bpm and might get close to 400, and at 400 bpm it would actually equal 200 bpm 32nd notes. But the 'normal' extreme drummers' max speed is around 280 bpm (16ths), for a pretty limited amount of time (5-10 seconds) - as far as I know. We're talking singles - with doubles there's more speed potential.
One of those hyperspeed quad drummers is the guy from Henker. At full speed his quad bass pedals produce a sound which can't really be identified as individual notes by the human ear. Thus, it sounds like a low-pitched fart... basically no musical value except you like/need this as an 'effect'. Here's that Henker drummer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcAuXrThJXk
(While I do like fast double bass playing - the 'normal' playing - into the upper speed ranges I have to scratch my head when it comes to quad pedals/400 bpm range.)
I wouldn't exactly call it cheating - it kind of is, but as we all agree those pedals (regardless of design) _have_ to be played, they don't play by themselves. Meaning some can do it (at high speed, with rhythmic evenness and dynamic control, and last but not least - overall coordination and integration into handwork etc), some can't. So I'm sure it absolutely takes discipline and effort to learn it. Honestly I wouldn't. I'm fine with 'normal' double bass playing and am happy to stay in the 200-300 bpm range, haha. Swivel/doubles is the greatest cheating thing I have in my bag, but quads - no, never.Thanks for posting that clip Arky. Just came across a horrendous quality video of the same clip on FB the other day- this ones much better.
Yeah at those speeds (and cheating with the quad pedal) sounds like a lawn-mower!
I know that video of George, it's a classic! (I have his DVD where it's on, too.) Yes, this is swiveling. But not in its 'purest' form as George's feet are swiveling differently. His left foot tends to swivel more.So this would be an example of swivel technique?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mnxm1qh_1rw
Would you say swivel is faster/ more accurate than heel toe?
Cool video- saved it for future reference. If you could clarify one thing though- is this a rebound technique (ie 2 strikes per downstroke like heel toe) or is he doing all singles?It was THIS video which made me reignite my efforts to learn this technique. I said to myself if some (see above) can do 300 I want to do at least 250. I've reached 230 by now (within a few months), and it doesn't even feel like working hard. From my experience it IS easier than singles (speed-wise, not technique-wise), it takes less energy, and you tend to hit higher speed. For now swivel feels quite similar to heel-toe.
Todd, as you can alredy do doubles - I guess you'd learn swivel easier. Try it but it might take you a while for some tangible progress. Stay patient. I think I have around 4 months of swivel practice now. I felt like "I'm half way there" months ago - and days ago. It's a medium to longer term process.
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It's all singles. Of course you could do doubles and introduce swivel (this is what I already could do in the past but singles w/ swivel feel quite differently and are harder when you start learning it). But George and Chris are doing singles only. Well some drummers don't consider swivel (even being singles used) as "real" singles technically. When I said that around 280 is max speed even for world class extreme drummers this was related to "real" singles. Altough as for George - I wouldn't say he's cheating, no way. You know what, let's simply forget the term "cheating" in a drum context. Do whatever takes you to where you need/want to be.Cool video- saved it for future reference. If you could clarify one thing though- is this a rebound technique (ie 2 strikes per downstroke like heel toe) or is he doing all singles?
Probably the only reason I'd spend time learning this is I feel the whole rebound thing with heel toe has the potential to get out of control (not so much with extended periods of 16ths but shorter bursts and patterns).
I find it difficult to "stop on a dime" with heel toe- maybe swivel is the answer?
Great advice mate, will give it a go to work out my pattern issues with heel-toe.As for heel-toe (or - similar - constant release) bursts/stops: Now this can be addressed with specific exercises. I struggled with transition control for months and still need much work on it. What I'm doing is e.g. playing 1 bar of 8th notes/singles, followed by the same foot motions but as 16th notes. Think hand rudiments - 1 bar 8th, 1 bar 16ths - pretty easy. Simply switch between singles and doubles. Then start to mix it up into singles/doubles patterns but stick to your R foot playing all on-beat and the L foot playing all the off-beat notes. So just leave out some 16th notes but always assign your feet for the same note positions within a bar. I'm sure this will help you. Well some guys can play all those patterns with regular singles but why not learning/practicing a mix of singles and doubles. This will give you flexibility to handle everything.
wildbill,
from the moment you use (or: discover) ankle motion things (speed) will change significantly... This will be the time for you to actually play 200+ bpm (16th notes)! It can be a matter of weeks to get there (depending on what/how you're practicing). Look for 'ankle motion' on YouTube to get a better idea if it's unclear to you ATM....