Pushing the envelope of this forum, non drum related

That's because you haven't actually engaged in discussion but just repeated your stance. Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe. Quite the contrary.

All sorts of things are different in Europe socially and culturally. If it works for Europe - good for them! In the meantime, many Muslim and Asian nations effectively ban alcohol and all other drugs, yet their ways are not our ways and I'm not going to hold them up as effective models of drug control. I will support efforts to keep cannabis and even more destructive drugs illegal in the US (heroin, meth, synthetic drugs, prescription abuse, etc.). Alcohol and tobacco are bad enough and I don't necessarily buy slippery slope or sticky slope arguments.

I occasionally find statements that the US should become like Europe in any number of ways, or look to Europe for examples of various issues the US is dealing with. Um, no.
 
That's because you haven't actually engaged in discussion but just repeated your stance. Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe. Quite the contrary.

If you'd care to clarify, I'd be interested in knowing if you support or oppose making all drugs legal and free from government control - heroin, meth, synthetics and even prescription drugs.

The mainstream view is that drugs do indeed need government control. Different people draw the lines in different places for particular drugs, but it is indeed rare to find someone who thinks people should have complete freedom of access to every substance man creates.
 
Alcohol and tobacco are bad enough and I don't necessarily buy slippery slope or sticky slope arguments.

Martin, we're not crims ... why spend billions criminalising the activities of otherwise well meaning, industrious people and in the process foster organised crime? Not counting the human cost of arrest imprisonment.

It's a huge own goal. As I said before, it's proven that abuse rates don't go up when it's legalised. Also, some people would switch from booze to pot, something that stressed workers in casualty wards would appreciate.
 
Alcohol and tobacco are bad enough and I don't necessarily buy slippery slope or sticky slope arguments.

Alcohol has got a long list of regulations attached to sales and consumption, you cannot buy it if you're under age and there's a limit implied if you're driving, this doesn't stop the thousand's of accidents, victims and death related to alcohol, legalisation, prohibition or regulation doesn't stop something to be abused and creating chaos, and it applies to all rules.
 
Martin, we're not crims ... why spend billions criminalising the activities of otherwise well meaning, industrious people and in the process foster organised crime? Not counting the human cost of arrest imprisonment.

This is what gets me. Criminally prosecuting people who have done nothing to anyone else. It's just wrong. We should be free to live how we want as long as we don't impinge on anyone else's similar right, period. You may have guessed by now, but I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms.

DMC: if you are the type to hit the bookstore once in a while, see if you can find a cheap copy of this book. It's really informative and stresses some of the same points I do. Here's the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain't_Nobody's_Business_If_You_Do

It's funny that the Europe thing has come up... I kind of agree with dmc on the stance that we shouldn't base our country on theirs, for what I feel is a good reason. We are different. We are a country that was supposedly founded on the right to freedoms. We came here to escape tyranny and unfair restrictions on freedoms. We need to stop using the government as a vehicle to try any legislate that everyone be exactly like we want them to be. If they aren't hurting someone else, leave them alone. It sickens me when people vote to disallow others the right to marry, or want to take everyone's firearms away because some people abuse them. I see people who support alcohol's legality, while simultaneously sitting on some moral high horse about something as harmless as pot, and I admit, it makes me a bit irritated. It's beyond directly hypocritical.
 
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Some of the people I know are a little upset that it is becoming legal here in California. The market is saturated with excellent bud and nobody can move their stuff anymore. People have to take huge cuts on their profits just to get rid of it.

But one of the major problems I see in keeping it illegal is the environmental damage that is caused to our waterways by the growers up there in mountains. At least if it's legal, it can be grown and regulated like a normal crop. Certain conditions and restrictions would have to be adhered to.
 
Some of the people I know are a little upset that it is becoming legal here in California. The market is saturated with excellent bud and nobody can move their stuff anymore. People have to take huge cuts on their profits just to get rid of it.

The only reason anyone can make so much money on that stuff is because it's illegal. I don't feel very sorry for them, because the illegality also kills people and ruins lives.
 
The only reason anyone can make so much money on that stuff is because it's illegal. I don't feel very sorry for them, because the illegality also kills people and ruins lives.

Ya, I agree that it should be legalized. People just have to evolve and adapt.
 
This is what gets me. Criminally prosecuting people who have done nothing to anyone else. It's just wrong. We should be free to live how we want as long as we don't impinge on anyone else's similar right, period. You may have guessed by now, but I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms.

DMC: if you are the type to hit the bookstore once in a while, see if you can find a cheap copy of this book. It's really informative and stresses some of the same points I do. Here's the wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ain't_Nobody's_Business_If_You_Do

It's funny that the Europe thing has come up... I kind of agree with dmc on the stance that we shouldn't base our country on theirs, for what I feel is a good reason. We are different. We are a country that was supposedly founded on the right to freedoms. We came here to escape tyranny and unfair restrictions on freedoms. We need to stop using the government as a vehicle to try any legislate that everyone be exactly like we want them to be. If they aren't hurting someone else, leave them alone. It sickens me when people vote to disallow others the right to marry, or want to take everyone's firearms away because some people abuse them. I see people who support alcohol's legality, while simultaneously sitting on some moral high horse about something as harmless as pot, and I admit, it makes me a bit irritated. It's beyond directly hypocritical.

I'd be interested in knowing whether or not you support the legalization of all substances - including natural heroin, meth, synthetic drugs, LSD and more. Under the argument you present above, I infer you support legalizing anything and everything - anything available at the time of this nation's founding was indeed legal and the Constitution is printed on hemp.

The mainstream view is that everything that gets people high needs to be either regulated (alcohol), allowed only by prescription (cannabis) or completely banned (meth). People draw lines differently for their own substances - but they do agree lines need to be drawn. Reasonable people can disagree with where the lines are drawn and may choose to discuss these things without calling each other unreasonable, hypocrites, etc.
 
Re: Europe ... what I said was "Claiming that more people will abuse pot is not supported by decriminalisation measures in Europe". I didn't say the US should be more like Europe - that was just Martin using my post to go riding one of his hobby horses.

If there were problems with regulation in Europe then prohibitionists would be citing stats from there. True, Europe is not the US or Oz, but who is? Yet countries take policy leads from others all the time. Govts are always looking at the way laws n other countries play out. We're all still human.

It's just commonsense. What we do to our bodies is a personal health and taste issue and everyone has their own standards. I have no intention of adopting someone else's health and taste standards because they think I should be more like them. Maybe they should be more like me?

Yes Martin, I support regulation of all banned things. Prohibition is a proven failure (and it wouldn't work with guns either, but regulation works). Regulation brings everything out into the open and makes it difficult for organised criminals. Increased regulation of gambling would be a good idea too. Prohibition doesn't work unless you're willing to go all the way like a dictatorship. Automatic death penalty.

Going at it half-assed means the worst of all worlds - the massive costs, the crime and increased drug abuse (due to attraction of the forbidden).
 
I'd be interested in knowing whether or not you support the legalization of all substances - including natural heroin, meth, synthetic drugs, LSD and more.

Absolutely. Given my choice in the matter, adult citizens would be free to live as they want as long as they aren't hurting others or hurting another's ability to also do so. Going to an extremely dangerous substance for example, putting crack users in jail helps literally nothing. It doesn't help them, and it only gets them "off the street" for a short time, during which they are a burden to the country and tax payer.

I believe that the penalties for hurting another's freedom should be greatly stiffened, and there should be no penalty for hurting yourself, or doing something that might potentially harm self. Regulation is another matter. To an extent, I see a need for things like age restrictions, and safety-based production regulation. Even this is a losing battle, but it's much less harmful to self and society than outright criminalizing something, creating black markets and cartels for the banned item in the process.
 
...but I'm a huge fan of personal freedoms.

Freedom??? what is freedom? the fact you can do whatever you want providing it's within a set of rules, the infrastructure of a government, with all the regulations and prohibition involved? That's not freedom, it's just an illusion, freedom doesn't exist, at least not in the proper sense.

The world is set by rules, regulations and prohibitions. Freedom is a given model of how we should live on this planet, wherever you live.

Legalizing, regulating or banning drugs will change very little, it will still be around causing the same trouble, the same victims and the same deaths, and someone will still fill up their pockets with huge amount of money at the instance of others, unfortunately drugs will still be around, like guns, violence, murders, crimes, rapes alongside all these immoral subjects which are poisoning lives of millions of people around the globe.

This discussion is going round in circle, while all opinions can be worthy, it won't change a lot in the real world, we can't change greed, we can't change the fact there will be drug users, we can't change mankind.

//end of rant//
 
Freedom??? what is freedom? the fact you can do whatever you want providing it's within a set of rules, the infrastructure of a government, with all the regulations and prohibition involved? That's not freedom, it's just an illusion, freedom doesn't exist, at least not in the proper sense.

Personal freedoms are not the same thing as total freedom to do whatever you want. If there's no victim, there should be no "crime". Don't hurt people, or deprive them of anything reasonable, and you shouldn't have to worry about being labeled a criminal.
 
Personal freedoms are not the same thing as total freedom to do whatever you want. If there's no victim, there should be no "crime". Don't hurt people, or deprive them of anything reasonable, and you shouldn't have to worry about being labeled a criminal.

While I admire your explanation within your post Watso, mankind has an historical agenda of creating victims, crimes, hurting and killing people, depriving entire civilizations and very often not even labelled as criminals, somehow I can't share such a view on personal freedom, and I'm a very optimistic person.
 
There's a few obvious fault lines where laws are based on tradition and are now doing more harm than good - prohibition, gay marriage and dying with dignity. We've made progress before - abolishing slavery, women's rights, multi-racial acceptance...
 
There's a few obvious fault lines where laws are based on tradition and are now doing more harm than good - prohibition, gay marriage and dying with dignity. We've made progress before - abolishing slavery, women's rights, multi-racial acceptance...

That's a whole lot of classic sticky slope arguments: "Because we outlawed this, that and the other, and because we made legal this, that and the other, then of course we need to make legal/illegal this here list of things." All those things cut both ways and several ways.

My strawman dragged a red herring across your slippery slope!
 
Nuthin slippery around any of them, although I suspect herrings of any colour will be slippery ... I'd see your straw man and up you a malapropism except I've forgotten what it is and couldn't be bothered Googling :)

All these legal changes will happen, just as abolishing slavery was always going to happen. Just as women will one day have equal rights in Asia and the Middle East (although that will take much longer). It's just a matter of getting past the inertia of tradition.
 
Legalizing, regulating or banning drugs will change very little, it will still be around causing the same trouble, the same victims and the same deaths, and someone will still fill up their pockets with huge amount of money at the instance of others, unfortunately drugs will still be around, like guns, violence, murders, crimes, rapes alongside all these immoral subjects which are poisoning lives of millions of people around the globe.
Woah - what makes you think all "drug users" are the same? If someone takes prescription drugs for a mental conditon, are they are drug user? And in many cases they are different from day to day based on whether they took their meds., ate something that made their meds pass through slowly/quickly. Using cannabis as an example there are many who use it responsibly and thoughtfully. So responsibly that they never are arrested, lose a job,etc. And in some areas they grow their own, legally. Regulating cannabis would lower the price tremendously, stop virtually ALL the incoming trafficking, stop almost 1 million American's from being arrested for minor possession each year, generate tax revenue whilst reducing Court and enforcement costs dramatically. And stop labeling those people as criminals which REALLY ruins lives. //end of Rant//
 
Nuthin slippery around any of them, although I suspect herrings of any colour will be slippery ... I'd see your straw man and up you a malapropism except I've forgotten what it is and couldn't be bothered Googling :)

All these legal changes will happen, just as abolishing slavery was always going to happen. Just as women will one day have equal rights in Asia and the Middle East (although that will take much longer). It's just a matter of getting past the inertia of tradition.

That's a sticky slope argument - "This case that I support is just like the cause of [fill in name of some great, well-known human movement for freedom and equality from any time and place]." Your cause is just like the struggle against slavery, so how could any right-minded person think differently, right?

I could argue the slippery slope, that your case is really like [fill in the name of some well-known human-caused disaster, injustice, or failed policy] but I won't because analogy is a very weak form of reasoning. From your statement, it isn't too hard to extrapolate that those who oppose cannabis legalization are in the same camp as those who support slavery and oppose women's rights in the Middle East, a "wrong side of history" theme.
 
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