inneedofgrace
Platinum Member
Okay, so drummer are musicians.
What about rappers?
What about rappers?
It is just a different talent than a flutist (for example).
Good call, Grea. I also like the bit you attribute to Duncan about intent. To me, that and context has everything to do with whether something's music or not, and whether the person doing it is any kind of musician.It's ironic for drummers to claim to be musicians and then say rappers aren't - each is focused on rhythm.
The loops programmers are musicians too. Is Bermuda not being a musician when programming parts for some of Weird Al's songs? Or Pat Mastelotto when he was with Crimson?
i find it hilarious that someone could class themselves as a musician (being a drummer), but then say that a "rapper" somehow isn't, or is in some way inferior. i think this will be a fun thread (;
Grea said:Some classical boffins believed that drums were not a musical instrument but merely noise makers. At the time drums did have more of a sound effect role in classical rather than being intrinsically tied to the flow and structure of the music as they are in jazz and other modern music.
Nowadays, of course, noise-making can be a legitimate musical pastime. Duncan and I have talked about this stuff a bit and he pointed me to instances where noise is used in mainstream music and listeners (including me) barely even notice, apart from digging it.
People love to say "that's not music" about music that challenges their conservative and fearful world view, eg. Cage, Stockhausen, free jazz (some say it's not "jazz"). My Dad said it about The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix.
Duncan also put me on to the notion that what distinguishes music from non-music is intent. So music need not travel up and down the stave, nor even be capable of being written with conventional notation. If you intend to make music, then you're making music. Whether it's any good or not is another matter.
Some Mad Italian said:This evolution toward noise-sound is only possible today. The ear of an eighteenth century man never could have withstood the discordant intensity of some of the chords produced by our orchestras (whose performers are three times as numerous); on the other hand our ears rejoice in it, for they are attuned to modern life, rich in all sorts of noises. But our ears far from being satisfied, keep asking for bigger acoustic sensations. However, musical sound is too restricted in the variety and the quality of its tones. The most complicated orchestra can be reduced to four or five categories of instruments with different sound tones: rubbed string instruments, pinched string instruments, metallic wind instruments, wooden wind instruments, and percussion instruments. Music marks time in this small circle and vainly tries to create a new vari- ety of tones. We must break at all cost from this restrictive circle of pure sounds and conquer the infinite variety of noise-sounds.
Duncan also put me on to the notion that what distinguishes music from non-music is intent. So music need not travel up and down the stave, nor even be capable of being written with conventional notation. If you intend to make music, then you're making music. Whether it's any good or not is another matter.
I can agree with that. I was referring to a more general population view (i.e. demographic of an X factor/ American Idol audience).Maybe it's the circles I follow, but I find more praise about recorded drum solos than any other instrument (perhaps besides vocal).
I mean, a cool guitar riff/solo is cool, but when a drummer lets loose, usually everybody watches.
My (then) 8 yr old nephew went to a Rush concert just to see Neil Peart play a solo. Watching the rest of the band was just a bonus.
There's only one thing missing from rap, & that's prefix letter "C"What about rappers?
I just went back and read the posts. I didn't see anyone who said that a rapper is not a musician. Please direct me to the someone you're referring to.
There's only one thing missing from rap, & that's prefix letter "C"
... in general use drums are 'noisy'
In 20 years' time rappers will be as integrated into the music system as synthesisers
But again, I've been brainwashed by enough bad jokes to associate musician with music - as in actual tuned notes, scales, modes, and all that - hell, many of us drummers think we're pretty clever if we can tune our toms in 4ths, or to just get top and bottom heads in tune with themselves. I'm not about to get all worked up by anyone thinking drummers aren't proper musicians, because by many critical measures, we're simply not, despite our contributions to the final product.
Drummers talk in vagaries like bright vs dark, attack vs round, sustain vs dry, but "musicians" speak very mathematically: integer multiples of specific frequencies. If someone's out of tune, a musician can hear it right away - how many drummers can hear when their batter / resos stray from whatever random shell sweet-spot "note" they were tuned to to begin with? Minor and major? Where is there anything similar with drums that isn't just some fleeting state and a happy accident?
Noise is in everything we hear, say, do. It's there. The 'intention' part is interesting because if we're talking about 'Noise Music' - then there are a variety of definitions and meanings. 'Noise' usually refers to that which is unwanted - look at the idea of a 'noise floor' in sound engineering or photography - but by consciously constructing 'Noise', we introduce an inherent paradox or contradiction. That's where the field of 'intention' comes into music and that is a whole lot more complicated...
People hear music in places where there was never intent to create any. The expression "music to my ears" comes to mind. I can hear music in the repetitive rhythms and whine of machinery. But those machines were not built with the intent of creating music.
Just going to call you on something Grea briefly before I lose my patience with the World and its oysters (not you, just in a bad mood - time for a cigarette).
I wouldn't ever classify 'noise' music as 'atonal'. Sure, there are elements of noise in atonality (and I would argue inherently so - but that's a story for another day) but to try and alleviate the paradox of 'noise music' by calling it 'atonal' suggests that there is a form of tonality to base it on in the first place. If you're really creating 'noise' as bespoke, then you don't have those reference points. Although etymologically calling it 'atonal' is correct (inasmuch as it lacks tonal centering) aesthetically it's not if you trace the lineage - at least of the terminology.