Pedals is my Life..

Dr. Pedal said:
Very Creative. I see a lot of very creative designs like this that work very well for the creator but don't translate well into the broad market. I've seen other players sit on a bass drum or cajon and play a normal pedal backwards with the heel, but never anything like this. Good Luck with it, though I don't feel a lot of players will change their style to adapt...

I hope that helps...

Lucas
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OK... lets clear something up first, are you a real doctor, or are you just playing one here on DRUMMERWORLD?

This design makes sense from an anatomical standpoint b/c the player is stabilized by a planted foot, as opposed to a floating foot. The heel is the more efficient driver also, has more power.

This 'style' may be so natural a motion, there might be nothing to adapt to.
 
Les Ismore said:
OK... lets clear something up first, are you a real doctor, or are you just playing one here on DRUMMERWORLD?

This design makes sense from an anatomical standpoint b/c the player is stabilized by a planted foot, as opposed to a floating foot. The heel is the more efficient driver also, has more power.

This 'style' may be so natural a motion, there might be nothing to adapt to.
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First let me say this...

I do admire your passion, and willingness to stand behind your design, you'll need that in whatever designs you have now or in the future... Don't let what I say discourage you, it IS very creative and I'm sure you learned a lot in making it. In my experience this education and keeping "at" something is a rare talent, keep it up. I only say that my experience would lead me to think it would be a difficult sale...

I've been designing pedals and drum hardware since 1987... The DW 9000 and 9500 high hats are my designs, IF you wish, you can check the patent numbers. You can find them at http://www.eccentricsystems.com And though I don't have a PHD in Engineering, I do know about pedals... In my professional opinion:

This pedal has no speed, the beater comes back so far you have to tuck your pants in your sock, and even on the demo, you drop beats because the mechanics can't handle the re-direction.

Hey, Jazz is also a difficult sale, and much beautiful music is never accepted by "the masses" though this by no means detracts from the talent and creativity. Design is a frustrating passion....

again, best of luck in your ideas... I do mean that sincerely...

Dr. Pedal
 
LukeSnyder said:
Dr. Pedal, what is your opinion on internal compression springs, like the Trick pedals, and why have they not become the standard yet? I'm interested in hearing your opinion.
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Hey Luke,

The Tricks look real interesting. The spring design is a re-design of the old Ludwig Ghost pedal. I used to play that Ludwig and found it smooth, but the spring adjustment on it was not great.

With the Tricks, I'm sorry to admit I've not played one, and don't know much about it's adjustment. These are one of only a few brands that are not compatible with another of my designs the Quick Torque Return Spring Cam. Because I've been concentrating on pedals with a Side Mounted Spring, I have no good information for you at this time... Sorry Buddy... But let me know what you find...

Thanks
Dr. Pedal
 
Dr. Pedal said:
Hey Luke,

The Tricks look real interesting. The spring design is a re-design of the old Ludwig Ghost pedal. I used to play that Ludwig and found it smooth, but the spring adjustment on it was not great.

With the Tricks, I'm sorry to admit I've not played one, and don't know much about it's adjustment. These are one of only a few brands that are not compatible with another of my designs the Quick Torque Return Spring Cam. Because I've been concentrating on pedals with a Side Mounted Spring, I have no good information for you at this time... Sorry Buddy... But let me know what you find...

Thanks
Dr. Pedal
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Fair enough! The adjustment on it is extremely simple, you just turn a knob. Here's an image, in case you haven't seen it:

DV019_Jpg_Regular_482299_tension_spring_detail_1.jpg


I believe that this method of returning the beater is similar to what happens with your quick torque cams. As the pin on the left side of the assembly rotates counter-clockwise, it compresses the spring. As the pin rotates more, the force is increased geometrically. I don't think Trick's design actually allows you to adjust that rate of change, however.
 
LukeSnyder said:
Fair enough! The adjustment on it is extremely simple, you just turn a knob. Here's an image, in case you haven't seen it:

DV019_Jpg_Regular_482299_tension_spring_detail_1.jpg


I believe that this method of returning the beater is similar to what happens with your quick torque cams. As the pin on the left side of the assembly rotates counter-clockwise, it compresses the spring. As the pin rotates more, the force is increased geometrically. I don't think Trick's design actually allows you to adjust that rate of change, however.
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Thanks Luke For Proving Me TOTALLY WRONG... I admit it, I was wrong!! I had thought they used a rotational spring, But this is NOT that...

It's use of a compression spring was generally only found in the speed king. This is quite unique, and I thank you very much for the education... The pin seems to rotate in a concentric manor (rotating at the same distance from the pivot) but because a compression spring can build more force in a smaller area, and more pressure per degree of rotation, the spring can be quite small. Can you adjust the beater angle on the Trick? I'm sure you would be able to, and I will have to check this out "first foot" as it were...

As to the Quick Torque cams, they are eccentric cams (changing the distance from the edge to the pivot) kind of like a compound bow, or the drive cam on an accelerator pedal. These reduce the amount of drive shaft rotation required to build the spring tension improving the efficiency of the mechanical parts.

Thanks for the lesson Luke... I've still much to learn!! Stay in touch Buddy!!
 
Can you tell me if your adaptor will fit the original Taye XP-1 pedal that won best of show at NAMM a few years ago.It was Metalworks model I think, but not the current one. Taye has since changed it but would be willing to give it a try if it will fit. Thanks.
 
Dr. Pedal said:
Thanks Luke For Proving Me TOTALLY WRONG... I admit it, I was wrong!! I had thought they used a rotational spring, But this is NOT that...

It's use of a compression spring was generally only found in the speed king. This is quite unique, and I thank you very much for the education... The pin seems to rotate in a concentric manor (rotating at the same distance from the pivot) but because a compression spring can build more force in a smaller area, and more pressure per degree of rotation, the spring can be quite small. Can you adjust the beater angle on the Trick? I'm sure you would be able to, and I will have to check this out "first foot" as it were...

As to the Quick Torque cams, they are eccentric cams (changing the distance from the edge to the pivot) kind of like a compound bow, or the drive cam on an accelerator pedal. These reduce the amount of drive shaft rotation required to build the spring tension improving the efficiency of the mechanical parts.

Thanks for the lesson Luke... I've still much to learn!! Stay in touch Buddy!!
Click to expand...

Haha, I don't really know what I'm talking about though, I'd never even HEARD of the Ghost pedals... You are correct of course, the pin does move concentrically. As far as the beater angle, yes, you can adjust it. You can also adjust how high the footboard connects to the direct drive link:

attachment.php


I had slightly misconstrued how your Quick Torque cams function, before, I see not how they differ. I just looked at them more closely, and it appears to be a fantastic idea! I'm slightly confused as to why they won't work with Axis pedals though, is there a brief explanation for that? I have a pair of Axis AL in the mail, and would have liked to try out those quick torque cams!
 
GRUNTERSDAD said:
Can you tell me if your adaptor will fit the original Taye XP-1 pedal that won best of show at NAMM a few years ago.It was Metalworks model I think, but not the current one. Taye has since changed it but would be willing to give it a try if it will fit. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Well, we can find out in just a minuet if you wish, I see from pictures it very well might. They seem to have the beater adjustment at the top of the spring assembly...

Luke, another friend here has just schooled me about Trick pedals so I'm trying not to assume, but if you remove the spring arm, and the shaft is round, and splined or having a rough surface, then it should be compatible.

The Quick Torque Cams have a single set screw in the 12 O:Clock position, so if that has a good grip point on the drive shaft, everything should be fine.

Take a look and let me know... Now I'm Curious....

Dr. Pedal
 
Dr. Pedal said:
Hey Guys, I'm new here but been building pedals for over 25 years... Maybe my experience can help... Any Questions??
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Hi Dr Pedal
I've read the forum in which you are talking about foot style, ie: jazz or rock. I played the "rock" style for about ten years and then moved on to play the "jazz" style for the last twenty years. I do have sometimes the problem described by Ted about the beater touching the heads between strokes, but over the years i kind of managed to avoid this trouble by adjusting my foot techinique, i play heel-up, toe-heel and some sliding techniques, i use about two third of the footboard.

Now, you mentioned this was normal and that a direct drive pedal would be more suitable the "jazz" style.

I play with a recently purchased Mapex Falcon that i have choosen over 5 others contenders because it offers to 2 drives systems (chain or strap) and 2 cams (glide or pursuit) with the option (at extra cost) to fit a direct drive unit to the pedal.

Would the direct drive resolve the problem? and would it still be suitable for fitting your Quick Torque system?

By the way welcome to the drummerworld forum, I'm a new member myself.
 
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LukeSnyder said:
Haha, I don't really know what I'm talking about though, I'd never even HEARD of the Ghost pedals... You are correct of course, the pin does move concentrically. As far as the beater angle, yes, you can adjust it. You can also adjust how high the footboard connects to the direct drive link:

attachment.php


I had slightly misconstrued how your Quick Torque cams function, before, I see not how they differ. I just looked at them more closely, and it appears to be a fantastic idea! I'm slightly confused as to why they won't work with Axis pedals though, is there a brief explanation for that? I have a pair of Axis AL in the mail, and would have liked to try out those quick torque cams!
Click to expand...

Thanks Luke,

That Trick does surprise me... It should be smooth...

The Quick torques don't fit the Axis because the cam is physically too large, It'ed be like puttin' a corn fed Kansas farm girl into a Beverly hills Bikini... It just won't fit..... Mechanically I think it would work, and I am working on talking to them, but the cam is about as small as I can make it and still have adequately sized screw..

With the Quick Torque design, I tried to use a screw with a drum key sized head, but because the screws are small and drummers like to "Torque Things Down" I found I had to switch to the allen screw heads. It keeps people from breaking or stripping them, though I feel less "handy" as a drum key... again, Design is a fickle business...

We could experiment.......

Dr. Pedal
 
Mad About Drums said:
Hi Dr Pedal
I've read the forum in which you are talking about foot style, ie: jazz or rock. I played the "rock" style for about ten years and then moved on to play the "jazz" style for the last twenty years. I do have sometimes the problem described by Ted about the beater touching the heads between strokes, but over the years i kind of managed to avoid this trouble by adjusting my foot techinique, i play heel-up, toe-heel and some sliding techniques, i use about two third of the footboard.

Now, you mentioned this was normal and that a direct drive pedal would be more suitable the "jazz" style.

I play with a recently purchased Mapex Falcon that i have choosen over 5 others contenders because it offers to 2 drives systems (chain or strap) and 2 cams (glide or pursuit) with the option (at extra cost) to fit a direct drive unit to the pedal.

Would the direct drive resolve the problem? and would it still be suitable for fitting your Quick Torque system?

By the way welcome to the drummerworld forum, I'm a new member myself.
Click to expand...

Hi MAD...

Welcome in...

A Question, did you find you changed your style for "tone" IE a better bass drum tone? Personally though I don't get to play as much as I like any more, I'm a rocker.. I'm wondering what is your experience with speed in this change? Given that the pedal is already back away from the head when you start your stroke, there may be a higher potential for speed, but most players I know that play the Jazz style don't use a high speed foot... What is your experience???

As to the Mapex, It's a good pedal, some quality parts and bearings in it. I'm also seeing that they have a direct drive adapter for it.

I mention direct drive, and the bicycle cages over the foot because this eliminates the pedal moving. Everything is directly attached. With a chain or strap, you may hold the foot plate with a cage, but the strap will go slack and still rock back to the head.

The falcon is compatible with Quick Torque cams, and I have heard from other jazz players that they do help a lot in the double striking. Because the Eccentrics on the Quick Torque pull the drive shaft back at a 30% higher speed, the cam also needed a better way to stop the forward motion, which was designed in...

Tell you what, if you want to try them and DON'T like them, I return your money and shipping...
 
Dr. Pedal said:
Thanks Luke,

That Trick does surprise me... It should be smooth...

The Quick torques don't fit the Axis because the cam is physically too large, It'ed be like puttin' a corn fed Kansas farm girl into a Beverly hills Bikini... It just won't fit..... Mechanically I think it would work, and I am working on talking to them, but the cam is about as small as I can make it and still have adequately sized screw..

With the Quick Torque design, I tried to use a screw with a drum key sized head, but because the screws are small and drummers like to "Torque Things Down" I found I had to switch to the allen screw heads. It keeps people from breaking or stripping them, though I feel less "handy" as a drum key... again, Design is a fickle business...

We could experiment.......

Dr. Pedal
Click to expand...

Yes, the more I saw of the Trick pedals, the more I was impressed. The price tag is very high, they cost around $850... not getting a pair anytime soon!

Ahhh, that makes sense about the cam just being physically too large. Because I had my Axis X longboard out, and I was looking at it, and I thought to myself... "There's no reason those quick torques couldn't work on here!" That would be a problem...
 
LukeSnyder said:
Yes, the more I saw of the Trick pedals, the more I was impressed. The price tag is very high, they cost around $850... not getting a pair anytime soon!

Ahhh, that makes sense about the cam just being physically too large. Because I had my Axis X longboard out, and I was looking at it, and I thought to myself... "There's no reason those quick torques couldn't work on here!" That would be a problem...
Click to expand...

So Luke, do you facebook...

Friend me at Lucas Jacobson. Minneapolis I'd like to stay in touch...

PEACE

Dr. Pedal.
 
Dr. Pedal said:
Hi MAD...

Welcome in...

A Question, did you find you changed your style for "tone" IE a better bass drum tone? Personally though I don't get to play as much as I like any more, I'm a rocker.. I'm wondering what is your experience with speed in this change? Given that the pedal is already back away from the head when you start your stroke, there may be a higher potential for speed, but most players I know that play the Jazz style don't use a high speed foot... What is your experience???

As to the Mapex, It's a good pedal, some quality parts and bearings in it. I'm also seeing that they have a direct drive adapter for it.

I mention direct drive, and the bicycle cages over the foot because this eliminates the pedal moving. Everything is directly attached. With a chain or strap, you may hold the foot plate with a cage, but the strap will go slack and still rock back to the head.

The falcon is compatible with Quick Torque cams, and I have heard from other jazz players that they do help a lot in the double striking. Because the Eccentrics on the Quick Torque pull the drive shaft back at a 30% higher speed, the cam also needed a better way to stop the forward motion, which was designed in...

Tell you what, if you want to try them and DON'T like them, I return your money and shipping...
Click to expand...

I changed my foot technique for many reasons, part of it is about the sound, secondly, when I was doing double stroke in 16th notes I did not liked the fact the first hit was an "open" sound followed by "buried" sound I also wanted to apply to the foot what I was doing with my hands, ie: for louder strokes you raise your wrist, open the fingers and even lift the forearm for extra power. I thought that if I adjusted the angle of the beater quite a lot towards me I could reproduce the action with my foot. As you lift you foot to hit the drum, the beater goes towards you and by dosing the amount of force to the stroke you can actually play extremely loud. The sliding technique allow me to get speed and power. To actually achieve control of the beater, I had to adjust the spring that is just short of being loose, which is normal in a way considering the distance the beater as to travel. So basically, this is it and it works for me. I am too a rocker by heart, but over the years I enjoyed playing others styles (but I still play rock songs). With this foot technique I've found that I'm less tired than the "rock" style.

With the Quick Torque Cam, does the pedal feel harder to push than the conventional cam? I like the idea that the beater return 30% quicker, this definitely improve speed and power, but not if it require 30% more force to hit the drum.
 
Mad About Drums said:
I changed my foot technique for many reasons, part of it is about the sound, secondly, when I was doing double stroke in 16th notes I did not liked the fact the first hit was an "open" sound followed by "buried" sound I also wanted to apply to the foot what I was doing with my hands, ie: for louder strokes you raise your wrist, open the fingers and even lift the forearm for extra power. I thought that if I adjusted the angle of the beater quite a lot towards me I could reproduce the action with my foot. As you lift you foot to hit the drum, the beater goes towards you and by dosing the amount of force to the stroke you can actually play extremely loud. The sliding technique allow me to get speed and power. To actually achieve control of the beater, I had to adjust the spring that is just short of being loose, which is normal in a way considering the distance the beater as to travel. So basically, this is it and it works for me. I am too a rocker by heart, but over the years I enjoyed playing others styles (but I still play rock songs). With this foot technique I've found that I'm less tired than the "rock" style.

With the Quick Torque Cam, does the pedal feel harder to push than the conventional cam? I like the idea that the beater return 30% quicker, this definitely improve speed and power, but not if it require 30% more force to hit the drum.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insite... it makes great since, and if I wasn't so old I was a bus boy at the last supper, I'd give er a go... I was of the Louis Bellson school that shoulder is slower than the elbow and the wrist slower than the fingers, so I applied that to the leg and planted my heel... It took a while, but it did, if I may say, make me very fast but still with power. I could never get the heel up style, your combining ankle and leg and kind of balancing on your butt... But by the same token, If I were a better drummer, I probably wouldn't be a designer... I'd be playing for a living...

As to the force to push down, that's where Quick Torques are very much like a compound bow, they are much easier to push down... Because a cam is used instead of an "arm" the curves of the cam have a power or input side, and a different return side. Each "side" of the cam is curved to improve the efficiency. The "In depth" video posted below explained it fairly well.. Does that help??
 
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