Speeeeed!!

Arky

Platinum Member
Thinking about myself asking other drummers of the bpm's they can do with specific techniques/rudiments/patterns in various threads every now and then, it just struck me to create a separate thread on this.

I'm perfectly aware of some relations like speed being the by-product of control and that speed is a mere parameter and without music, just exercise. And to practice slow etc. - that's not what I'm going for in this thread. I'm just curious to learn what some people can do so I would know what is humanly possible, and this might serve as more inspiration for practice or simply to exchange some info regarding the flashier stuff (which might be easy patterns but brought up to terrific speed). I'm not intending this to be a show-off thread but just so I'd have an idea in terms of bpm. Because I've learned that even a number of pro drummers simply don't care of bpm's and were unable to give me bpm values from the top of their heads.

I'm also perfectly aware (on my own experience) that "maximum speed" doesn't necessarily have to correlate to "workable speed". Judging from my experience on the (el.) guitar I guess that the better the drummer (those who do focus on technique/speed), the less of a difference there is between their comfy and max speed. Personally my gap between those tempo ranges is substantial, depending on the technique/pattern.

No, speed isn't everything, and yes, any drummer shouldn't spend all the time on technical stuff etc. - I hope this is clear and that people won't comment on such well-known common sense stuff too much _on this thread_.

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As a starter, here's some bpm's of myself. I think it's also helpful to not only give the bpm's but also give some brief info on the technique or whether this feels ultra hard or what duration can be maintained with this and that pattern.

Paradiddle: max = 250 bpm/16th notes (HQ RealFeel pad), both matched and trad grip. 8 bars. I think I hit the same speed with the left hand leading, also. Both matched and trad (with most stuff my max speed would be with matched grip, trad being a bit slower). Comfy range for paradiddle (the basic variation) would be anything below 200 bpm. I've started working on the other paradiddle variations just recently, those are way harder for me.

Max speed single strokes: 280 bpm 16th (=8th notes per hand), for about 5 seconds. Same max speed with right and left hand ATM. American grip, a combination of wrists and fingers because at max speed I can't apply only one technique in its pure form - when pushing my hands will find their own way. I do pay close attention to technique when playing in my more comfy tempo zones though.

Feet, heel up/double pedal: 240 bpm/16th notes for about 6-8 bars (dw2002 double pedal, and HQ RealFeel kick practice pad w/ a towel on top of the rubber, and playing barefoot).
(More bpm with doubles/heel-toe but haven't done any max speed tests w/ doubles for a while. Did 270 bpm/16th notes for 3 minutes but that was months ago.) Super comfy speed range for doubles is anything up to about 180 bpm. Starts to feel harder from about 220-230 bpm.

Heel-toe/doubles endurance: 240 bpm/16th notes, for 6.38 minutes (months ago).

Heel-up endurance: 40 minutes @ 200 bpm.

I'm into drums for 1.75 years now, have a lot of time for practice (a good deal of which is actually having some "real" work to do which involves the hands only so the feet are free to practice on the double pedal or hihat at that time). Haven't got a full kit (yet) and no real plans what to do with what I "can" (which isn't much) - I'm drumming for fun and because I'm enjoying the physical/motoric challenge. (Coming from the guitar which I've been playing for 21 years now, with a focus on technique also. I'm way faster in drumming though, haha, at least if not counting in techniques like tapping.)
 
I've always got the impression that the hand speed 'gold standard' for singles, doubles and paradiddles is the 200 bpm mark, where the rudiment is held for 1 minute and is played cleanly and evenly - perfect note spacing and each stroke played at the same height. Attaining this standard would ensure that the rudiment is usable in a musical context ie. it can be played around all the voices of the kit reliably. Is a 5 second burst of 280 in anyway useful? That said, your foot development in 1.75 years is prodigious.
 
I've always got the impression that the hand speed 'gold standard' for singles, doubles and paradiddles is the 200 bpm mark, where the rudiment is held for 1 minute and is played cleanly and evenly - perfect note spacing and each stroke played at the same height. Attaining this standard would ensure that the rudiment is usable in a musical context ie. it can be played around all the voices of the kit reliably. Is a 5 second burst of 280 in anyway useful? That said, your foot development in 1.75 years is prodigious.

I totally agree. It's more important to play in clean for a minute than to be able to go all out for 5 seconds. Being able to play it clean and precisely is more important overall.
 
I've always got the impression that the hand speed 'gold standard' for singles, doubles and paradiddles is the 200 bpm mark, where the rudiment is held for 1 minute and is played cleanly and evenly - perfect note spacing and each stroke played at the same height. Attaining this standard would ensure that the rudiment is usable in a musical context ie. it can be played around all the voices of the kit reliably.
That's a _great_ benchmark! I'll try this approach - maintaining perfect control for 1 minute is a long time and an achievement.
Is a 5 second burst of 280 in anyway useful?
To some extent - yes. Pushing max speed results in anything slower becoming more easy. (Didn't Eddie van Halen say something like "If you can play something fast then playing the same thing slower will be easier." (Although this isn't a must - I've noticed every speed range has its own challenges so it makes sense to practice throughout the entire speed range.) That's a good by-product, too. Now if someone's going to implement 280 bpm stuff into his/her real music this means that they might have to cope with 300 bpm stuff to do something musical with it, or have some headroom.
That said, your foot development in 1.75 years is prodigious.
Thanks! While I am glad I hit that speed (months ago actually) within relatively short time I've got so accustomed to progress that I simply expect my hand/foot speed to climb up a few bpm's every now and then. But I've already hit a speed range (at least with max speed) which is telling me that any progress from now on will take multiple time. As to heel up/240 - I'm absolutely stuck at that speed for some time now, seems I've reached a plateau.

I stated that speed was heel up. Because I've been neglecting flatfoot for some time, having started to work on this with some delay. With full leg motion/flatfoot I have to work hard to get at 200-220 bpm, and this is for short durations. I'm hoping that this will get much easier with time. Heel-up/ankle motion is way easier for me. So I'm quite not well balanced technically meaning some stuff is way more up the speed range while other is underdeveloped. I'm dreaming of the day where I might be in balance whether it's singles, doubles or mixed patterns.

When doing max tests for hand speed (I've done them 2 times recently) I'm first warming up, then doing runs @ 200 bpm and play for a while (1-2 minutes). Then 220, 240 runs & going for as long as I can. So I'm gradually climbing up to 280. Right hand, most recent test: It's 5 seconds @ 280 but 12 secs @ 260, 27 secs @ 250 etc. You get the idea.
 
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Pushing max speed results in anything slower becoming more easy. (Didn't Eddie van Halen say something like "If you can play something fast then playing the same thing slower will be easier." (

I'd say that approach goes against convention, it's far more reliable and efficient to practice slowly and thoroughly, and build up from that foundation. That's particularly important when it comes to note spacing and microtiming issues.

The headroom concept is an important one; i've never been called upon to play 200bpm singles, or jazz ride at 320, but i'll work to attain those speeds to ensure comfort at lower speeds. It's just that it's more sensible to work up to those speeds rather than diving in at top whack and trying to squeeze something out (ooh-err).
 
I agree. Keep in mind pushing myself @ 280 bpm makes a tiny fraction of my practice time - only when pushing to the max every few weeks - that's it. Or if I see/hear some fast drumming I'd try check out whether I'm up to that speed hands and feet wise (most of the time - yes, haha). I just tried to reply on your question on what max speed might be good for.

Everybody has a 5 seconds maximum speed limit for something, from the world's worst to the world's best drummer. Some of them just don't know/care because they never checked out what thing it is they can hold for 5 seconds, not more ;-)

I think that headroom concept was also mentioned by John Riley (if I remember correctly from his excerpt of his DVD - that sample video is on DW somewhere.) This concept makes so much sense to me. (Does the term "footroom" exist? Anyway, good to have some.)
 
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Pretty cool thread.
I haven't really been into "speed" myself. The styles of music "the speed thing" works for isn't something that I'd play, but, I have practiced stuff faster so I can do them more comfortably at slower speeds.
Works for some things better than others.

Faster singles weren't as much an issue for me as both hands doing singles at the same time at fast speeds (such as on snare and ft). That drove me nuts trying to get it down cleanly haha!

Good luck to everyone that gets into this kind of thing!
 
I just started getting seriously into practicing single stroke rolls, paradiddles etc. with the aim of pushing my speed. My single stroke roll maxes out at 170bpm, but that is playing solidly for however long. Paradiddles about the same. One handed I can sometimes get up to 110bpm 16th notes on either hand (trad grip), but I find that I tense up so I stop, but I can feel that the rebound is in the stick at that tempo it just needs to be controlled by me in a relaxed way.

I've found that since pushing my speed like this, playing at a more useful tempo is so much easier. I can focus on accent placement at useable tempos without worrying that the rudiment underneath the accents will collapse.
 
Your foot speed is great for this short amount of playing.

I have been playing for twenty plus years, and generally when it gets to 240-280 I have some trouble if I haven't played in a while.

Think Hate Eternal or really fast death metal double bass work. I looked at as an accomplishment in my drumming to learn this, even if I don't play DM/BM all the time, or at all.

This is a great thread idea.

I haven't clocked myself ina while, but your a motivation for me to get back on the pad and see, WITH a metronome.

This could be a thread to help people in trouble areas with certain rudiments, techniques, or anything related to bpms and playing.

Great idea
 
That's a very interesting thread Arky, I've never actually contemplated such an approach to speed related bpm's value before, I will certainely give it a go and see what I'm coming up with as an end result :)

I tend to increase or reduce speed of my practices using subdivisions changes and permutations accross the four limbs from a single metronome pulse, going through quarters, 8th notes, 16th notes, 32nd notes and 64th notes, in binary and ternary patterns, so generally the bpm value is much lower than the one you've listed in the OP :)

I'd say that approach goes against convention, it's far more reliable and efficient to practice slowly and thoroughly, and build up from that foundation. That's particularly important when it comes to note spacing and microtiming issues.

I would agree in principle, and often my approach to new patterns will follow that logical approach, however, there's numerous patterns which I find genuilely easier to play at faster tempo than a slowed down version, certain patterns have a "natural" range of tempos, anything above or indeed below that given range is difficult to master for me :)
 
MAD,
sure, I'm switching gear, too - going up and down the subdivisions (including triplets of course). I just find it easier to work with up to 16th triplets but not 32nd or even 64th notes, that's too many note flags for me. And 200 bpm might sound cooler than 100, haha. Actually I do use half time clicks a lot because although it's the same physical speed, having a click going at half time creates feels more relaxed to me. Typically I'm using 2-minute click MP3's which came with a multi-DVD tutorial package.

PS: My max speed increase with paradiddle (AFAIR) was 168 - 184 - 208 - 216 - 240 - 250. 250 was about a month ago. I'm doing those tests every now and then, not once a week or something. And my first max speed with single stroke roll I remember was... a mere 144, haha. [EDIT: It was first 138, then 144. Then 160...]
 
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MAD,
sure, I'm switching gear, too - going up and down the subdivisions (including triplets of course). I just find it easier to work with up to 16th triplets but not 32nd or even 64th notes, that's too many note flags for me. And 200 bpm might sound cooler than 100, haha. Actually I do use half time clicks a lot because although it's the same physical speed, having a click going at half time creates feels more relaxed to me. Typically I'm using 2-minute click MP3's which came with a multi-DVD tutorial package.

PS: My max speed increase with paradiddle (AFAIR) was 168 - 184 - 208 - 216 - 240 - 250. 250 was about a month ago. I'm doing those tests every now and then, not once a week or something. And my first max speed with single stroke roll I remember was... a mere 144, haha.

can you post a video of you playing paradiddles with 250 bpm as your quarter note?
 
In my mid 60's I have no real speed, and my chops are on the wane...BUT, I make it a point
to Swing the House! I hear a lot of young cats who have chops but can't swing...and THAT
keeps me working!
 
You play 16th note paradiddles at 250? WTF!!!??

That is crazy fast for anyone IMHO.

I am not far behind you time wise but half way there in bpm. Really impressive.
 
You play 16th note paradiddles at 250? WTF!!!??

That is crazy fast for anyone IMHO.

I am not far behind you time wise but half way there in bpm. Really impressive.

I'll believe it when I see it

I know drum corp. players who are 20 years deep who can barely do that
 
I'll believe it when I see it
Ok, I'll try to do a video. I have a low standard digicam (usually using it for taking pictures, but not videos) and zero experience in video editing & YT uploading. If it doesn't work out with my digicam I'll either come over to a friend to have him do the recording or buy a dedicated videocam - those are ridiculously cheap these days. One day somebody had to ask for video proof ;-)
I know drum corp. players who are 20 years deep who can barely do that
Now this is surprising me. I've created this thread to find out which tempos can be done. I've found a drummer on YouTube (he passed away at under 30 y.o.) who demonstrates paradiddle @ 270 and even applies this speed to the whole kit. And someone on that "Anyone study the snare seriously" thread mentioned 310 bpm for paradiddle - that's a good deal more than 250! I focused on the paradiddle to "get fast". I think I am "fast" now (goal accomplished for now) but many players can do all the variations at the same speed, I can't.
 
A 250 BPM paradiddle, translates to 1000 hits per minute, that's so fast, that's more than 16 hits per second. That's crazy fast. I'd like to see that. How long can you maintain that for? 8 bars? How many seconds is that? Anyone who gets fast in less than 2 years...it's not supposed to go that quick lol. I hope you can back this stuff up.
 
A 250 BPM paradiddle, translates to 1000 hits per minute, that's so fast, that's more than 16 hits per second. That's crazy fast. I'd like to see that. How long can you maintain that for? 8 bars? How many seconds is that? Anyone who gets fast in less than 2 years...it's not supposed to go that quick lol. I hope you can back this stuff up.
Larry, many years ago I did a max speed test on the electric guitar. The result was 22.2 notes a second (left hand legato - no right hand picking involved). And there are guys who are faster than that! (Check out Rusty Cooley...)

Take a look at those WFD results... You'll find results in the 1.300-1.100 hits per minute range. I could do 1000 hits, too if I could hold my speed for that long. Maybe I'm just a few months away from holding 250 bpm for 1 minute, that'll make 1000 hits.

I said those 250 bpm/paradidle were for 8 bars. Haven't calculated this but going by feel I'd say this makes some 10-12 seconds altogether. (I'm wrong - read on.)
Well let's do the math... 60 divided by 250 = duration of a quarter note = 0.24 seconds. x4 = duration of 1 bar = 0.96 seconds. x8 = duration of 8 bars = 7.68 seconds. I see...
I never said I can hold 250 bpm/paradiddle for a minute. Maybe one day, but that WOULD be crazy! (Somebody tell me I'm daydreaming, haha.)

[EDIT: Just for clarification - Probably doing 1 minute @ 250 bpm = 1000 hits, I was meaning _any_ hand technique/pattern to get this, not necessarily w/ paradiddle. Because going from 7.68 seconds to 60 seconds _with paradiddle_ is way too much to pull this off in a few months. The paradiddle may never happen for me @ 250 for a whole minute - I just meant doing 1000 hits a minute, playing e.g. a single stroke roll w/ American grip & fingers or French grip, or playing doubles.]
 
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Larry, many years ago I did a max speed test on the electric guitar. The result was 22.2 notes a second (left hand legato - no right hand picking involved). And there are guys who are faster than that! (Check out Rusty Cooley...)

Take a look at those WFD results... You'll find results in the 1.300-1.100 hits per minute range. I could do 1000 hits, too if I could hold my speed for that long. Maybe I'm just a few months away from holding 250 bpm for 1 minute, that'll make 1000 hits.

I don't see the correlation between guitar notes and drum hits unless you use one finger 22 times a second...maybe I'm not understanding what legato means, how many fingers do you use? But hey more power to you. Your results are not typical. If you've been drumming for less than 2 years, and you are perhaps a few months away from doing 1000 beats in a minute...you should be publishing a book on gaining speed in record time.
 
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