My rant on today's pop music

IMO the perception that we are looking at is wrong.

Who buys CD's today... When was the last time "you" bought something brand new, as in not an older "classic" CD?

Once file sharing and Napter was in full swing you'd be hard pressed to find people at records stores like before. The proof is in the big chain stores are gone... Look at Blockbuster, streaming technology has eliminated them as well.

Now bands will release stuff on vinyl just to help get you into the specialty store. April 16th, record appreciation day!

In my day getting an album was an all day adventure... the countless hours I spent looking at my Iron Maiden albums and playing them to death was, well, what you did...

Artist want money, its still a job, if you want people to know about it you have to market it... watch TV, think about how many people have no idea of all the subliminal messaging going on. If you ask, what the comercial was saying most see only the surface value. Advertising/Marketing people know this so they use it.

I remember MTV when it started... I used to hate this song called Big Log by a guy who I thought was Lame at the time, it played in heavy rotation and I hated it... his name is Robert Plant! Once I discoverd Zepp I couldnt belive it was the same dude... anyway, after awhile music was visual and no longer... just music... you didn't take albums to friends houses and wonder who the band was... now every band has a facebook page, mine included and we havent even played anywhere yet, lol.

Point being its not the "age" or demigraphic but the "how" that has changed music. The Styx refference is perfect. They rocked, got famous, DeYoung thought he was important and had new creative ideas to explore. Gotta love that he screwd up a good thing for his creative process and not just to remain popular. I digressed.

The kids today have more than kids before in terms of getting access to movies, music, and games. Business is Business and if your in it you know that the only logic is making money.. how to make more and more. The music business feeds us crap and we are often times to busy to notice or care, we buy the songs that we hear on TV, in our fav movie, associated with games, etc... we've become cattle.

With that doom and gloom I say... time is forever repeating itself... I discoverd a ton of music from long ago and so will new generations of music lovers. Its not the music, its the Packaging, but many people as you all know rebel against the mainstream and they often bring back stuff from yesteryear... I liked 60's hard rock in the 80's... day glow was new to me but old to my mom... you all know what I'm saying :)
 
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Ken, I can't finish it right now but the doco is really good. I like the comment made about how people who enjoy intricacy and depth in their music go for prog. I'd argue that the depth tends to be musical rather than lyrical :) Will finish later this weekend - thanks!
 
Delta - Where to start! First I shoud say your Documentary is E'ffn Awesome!!!

The more I watched the less I liked Prog Rock, now I'm going to try and explain. Unfortunately I don't have the vocabulary to express as much detail as I'd like. In addition I don't know that English has the words yet in order to clarify some of this.

The good & bad within us is the contridiction that makes the world so great. As a whole in general the human race thinks its wayyy more important than we really are... the old saying 'I think therfore I am'... is a perfect example of our stupidity. What do learn with age... that we truly know nothing.

What is Music? Where did it come from... well my college music appreciation professor thought she had the answer, maybe she did? To over simplify, music came from communication. We used banging on things to communicate when words were not the norm. I'll stop there because it to deep and thousands of years old now.

Music, I think, speaks to us all. We can say that its truly a barrer breaker, regardless of language a good piece of music effects us and unites us. When I think of the classical pierod I think of what life was like for the avergae person, we didnt have TV or all the mindless, time wasting endevors we have in todays world. Music was the novel for the illiterate... and still is to a degree.

The best of life is in simplicity... when you can take a complicated math equation and break it down to E=MC2, as an example, you open the door for everyone. To give mankind the same "feelings" from 3 chords as you can with 12 is really an art in itself.

I thought I really loved Prog Rock but one instrument that I've disliked for 30 years... the keyboard. That sound is just like a dirty ass to me. The only person I've really liked who played a keyboard was Stevie Wonder. In fact the "popular music" of the 80's with that synth keyboard was a major turnoff.

I love Primus, probably the best band in the world for me... that only some people like, What? I have always felt so blessed in the exposure I've had with music. My Great Grandfather was a composer in NYC. My grandfather played 7 instruments and loved the entire big band erra, he wrote tons of songs and he and my grandmother would sing for hours upon hours. My Moms was into frankie vallie and that whole type thing. My dad was into Jazz, heavily. My brother was a popular guy in the late 70's and listened to everything from Led Zeppelin to Michael Jackson, my sister was all Punk because she wasnt as popular as my brother (year apart and always in his shadow) My early years we had a music room... was really just a record player and a ton of albums. I would sit for hours and spin records... I still do something similar today, ok so its all MP3's.

To me the heartbeat of music is that thousand year old form of communication... the beat. Without the beat or heartbeat if you prefer, there'se no place for anything else. I want groove in my sounds... I'll take 3 minutes of Soul versus the answer to life anyday.

The bands in your doc without keyboards sounded cool. I really, really, enjoyed it. Just because I can't get behind "Jam Band Prog Rock" doesnt mean I can't appreciate what their trying to express. This is way to long... can't imagine its being read...

My fav's in no order... might help my point of view???

Led Zeppelin - Iron Maiden - John Coltrain - James Muther effin Brown - Dave Brubeck
Jimi Hendrix - Black Sabbath - Herbie Hancock - Muddy Waters - Beach Boys
Primus - Ozzy - NWA - Howlin Wolf - Beastie Boys
The Doors - Judas Priest - Snoop Dogg - T.I. - Jane's Addiction - Nirvana
Sublime - Santana - Sly and The Family Stone - RHCP - Kyuss... or Queens of the Stone Age if you prefer
Bob Marley - Miles Davis - Larry Grahm - FUGAZI!! - The Police
Barry Manilow - Billy Joel - Kool & The Gang - Earth Wind & Fire - Prince - Michael Jackson

I'm not sure what Prog Rock is anymore... if its good, its good! My aplogies to the other hundred bands I forgot to mention.lol!
 
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I knew you'd like that doc Pol.

Yeah, what is prog rock?Many prog artists don't consider themselves prog, Ian Anderson and Peter Gabriel for example whereas Bruford would say that movement died thirty years ago, and musical allusions to it are not progressive. I like the doc; but it touches on some issues and then presents a biased view point towards the idea that record companies should indulge musicians whims irregardless of the potential of their investment. Niel Morse says in the video that when they first got Spock's Beard together, they thought they were unique until they realized that there were hundreds of bands doing what they were doing. So who gets funded and why? It's better if you prove yourself first I would say.

Now if people are complaining about the music that other people listen to, Rhiannon, Chris Rock or Eminem, you should be asking them why they bother. You have your bands that you like and others would ask that equally of you. The conflict reminds me of the Paul Simon song, Boy in the Bubble from Graceland, he says "every generation sends a hero up the pop charts." and that is important, that you feel you are being represented. People over 40 complain that top 40 does not represent their interests. One need remember that top 40 radio is very shortsighted. Miles didn't sell millions in his time; but is still selling, certainly better than Sonny and Cher. People under 30 tend to complain that FM radio doesn't represent their bands. They need to send their heroes up the pop charts as well.

As much as music is about communication, it is also about shared community. I remember I met this girl after HS who said to me, you're in college, I thought you were a burn out because of all that music you listened too. It would have been nice had I gone to a HS where people shared my interests.
 
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Here's an interesting doc on progressive rock:

http://www.vimeo.com/21318405

I found it kind of odd. I like a lot of prog, but (with the exception of Pink Floyd) I only really like the metal influenced side of prog, which the documentary maker clearly did his best to avoid. He only barely mentions Dream Theater, and not a hint about Fates Warning, or any of the numerous European prog-metal bands, many of whom do really well in their home countries.

How do you a prog film and only mention Rush is passing? Aggravating.

He really focused on the 70's style, which as never been my cup of tea. It seems every 70's prog band uses the same keyboard sound, with the harmony runs.

It seems the movies intent is to drive prog further into the underground rather than help it along.

But the candid discussions about the music business were spot on.
 
I found it kind of odd. I like a lot of prog, but (with the exception of Pink Floyd) I only really like the metal influenced side of prog, which the documentary maker clearly did his best to avoid. He only barely mentions Dream Theater, and not a hint about Fates Warning, or any of the numerous European prog-metal bands, many of whom do really well in their home countries.

How do you a prog film and only mention Rush is passing? Aggravating.

He really focused on the 70's style, which as never been my cup of tea. It seems every 70's prog band uses the same keyboard sound, with the harmony runs.

It seems the movies intent is to drive prog further into the underground rather than help it along.

But the candid discussions about the music business were spot on.


I think part of that is that there are so many prog bands out there today and even back in the 1960s*-70s when it was at its commercial peak. The doc is from 2002, so it is dated. I don't know what his fascination with Echolyn was; but perhaps they were easiest to get access to.

I think you posts really points to the problem. We have the BB top 100, and at any given point, there are thousands of bands trying to get into it, trying to sell their product enough to be noticed. Bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree do it and ahve success despite the obstacles. It took PT twenty years to get into the BB top 40 albums. That kind of tenacity should be an inspiration to any musician.

BTW, you analysis of Chinese Democracy was spot on. I think you ruined that album for me. It's a shame because there are a few songs on it that are really good and could have been up there with any of the great G n R tunes if they had been done right.
 
I think part of that is that there are so many prog bands out there today and even back in the 1960s*-70s when it was at its commercial peak. The doc is from 2002, so it is dated. I don't know what his fascination with Echolyn was; but perhaps they were easiest to get access to.

I think you posts really points to the problem. We have the BB top 100, and at any given point, there are thousands of bands trying to get into it, trying to sell their product enough to be noticed. Bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree do it and ahve success despite the obstacles. It took PT twenty years to get into the BB top 40 albums. That kind of tenacity should be an inspiration to any musician.

After thinking about it for a bit, would really bugged me about that movie is the film maker presents the prog fan as someone who has an open mind, and the music has having no rules. And yet, the film maker keeps a closed mind and puts rules on the music.

To say prog died out in the 80's and was unpopular is a complete misnomer. Rush albums in the 80's sold far better than there 70's albums did in the 70's. And while 80's Rush was not 10 minute long epics, the songs were still using odd times, high level of musicianship and complex parts. It was still prog. And the band was playing those longer 70's pieces to packed arenas every night. The music was still selling.

And then you had the whole neo-classic guitar shred movement in the 80s, which again totally fit the description of prog with high level of musicianship and complex parts. All those shredders were influenced by the 70's prog masters and we presenting their take on it as the next generation of prog.

Queenrsyche was never a prog band per se, but they had a lot of prog aspects (I used to used to refer to them as a semi-prog band). Their 1988 conceot album Operation Mindcrime being the best example. And Metallica's 1988 album And Justice for All was about as prog as you can get with odd time galore, long epic songs and crazy solos.

Just because prog went metal in the 80's doesn't mean it didn't exist.

And then to just mention Dream Theater in passing as "that metal band" was weird. Dream Theater was/is as prog as anyone can get. They had a gold album. And many of the bands mentioned in the movie, like Spocks Beard and the Flower Kings, owe their success to opening for Dream Theater, and/or Mike Portnoy talking about how great those bands are every chance he had. Dream Theater opened a lot of doors for the rest of these smaller prog bands, and it was just bizarre the movie didn't mention that.

Of course, I may be biased because the film maker left out some of my favorite bands, but still, facts are facts.

BTW, you analysis of Chinese Democracy was spot on. I think you ruined that album for me. It's a shame because there are a few songs on it that are really good and could have been up there with any of the great G n R tunes if they had been done right.

Sorry, but at least you're only out two bucks. I can't believe the record company poured some $13 million into that album thinking they would still make a profit. Sure, Appetite sold 18 million copies, but the Use Your Illusion albums were around 7 million each. There is no way anyone could think Axl still had enough star power to sell enough to make back $13 million and then a profit.
 
I initiated the idea on several prog boards that the legacy of 70s prog, esp ELP, was not neo-prog but heavy metal and you know the reaction I got. You are definitely preaching to the choir. By 1978-79, none of the big bands were producing anything of substance, except for Rush, Look at what you had, Yes, Tormato, Tull Stormwatch, ELP Love Beach, Genesis Duke, Floyd The Wall. Yes, I bought all those albums. Fool me once. I am still no big fan of The Wall, sorry if that offends anyone. I did like later Genesis up until Genesis '83. It certainly wasn't progressive. My thesis was that the metallic, virtuostic sound of much 1980s prog metal is heard on Brain Salad Surgery. Tommy Lee spun his drum set, Keith Emerson spun his piano. It goes back to Crimson through Black Sabbath and voila, Peter Sinfield is on those albums, too.

I was going to ask you what you thought of Metallica. In 1984, I was at a cafe with a 14 year old girl. I asked her who was going to be the next great band, and she said Metallica, I argued and she insisted. That was the moment I knew that I would get out of touch with the younger generation. Of course, she was right, and now looking back, I should have been more open-minded. In retrospect, they are better than I ever gave them credit for.
 
Oh yes, Metallica. I can't say I got in on the ground floor. I was too young to get into the clubs when they were a club band, and never actually heard them until later on.

I clearly remember that night in 1988. I had graduated high school. I was working part time at a drum shop. I came home from work, had dinner, did whatever, and turned on MTV. The world premier of "One" came on. I was floored. I had never seen anyone use double bass like that before. The sheer epic-ness, the sheer power. I ran out and bought the album.

And holy cow, what an album at the time. They're playing thrash in 7/4. They're throwing in bars of 5/4 into the mix. Lars is going over the bar line, then playing a fill to land back on the 1. It was complex, powerful, epic, raw and refined at the same time.

So yeah, I went back and got the back catalog. I was a huge fan. I've seen them maybe 15 times. Occasionally driving a few hours to see them.

But, like many fans, I was disappointed in Load. And then why release Re-Load?
I saw them right around that time, and they mostly played material from Ride the Lightening and Master of Puppets. It was if even they knew their newer material sucked.

And sorry, St Anger was the worst piece of crap I've ever heard in my life. I refuse to spend another dime on that band until they send me a refund check for that garbage.

Still, Ride the Lightening never gets old. Some great songs on that album.
 
My only issue with the prog doco was that it was obvious the maker was a guitar-head. Endless guitar melodies, which is one of the less interesting aspects of prog for me.

I'm opposite to you, DED, give me 70s prog - and nowhere near metal - any day. Rush is hideous! *wink*.

Most symphonic stuff usually doesn't do it for me either, but I really like the fusion and ethno-influenced styles and the more experimental things - most Crimson, Zappa, Beefheart, Henry Cow, psychedelic Floyd, Soft Machine, Gong, early Tubes, Bowie's Berlin albums, Focus, Quiet Sun ... great music.

Of the newer crop, I find Tool the outstanding act - great vibe and the drumming is wonderful. Deity help me but I like old ELP ... I know, I know ... it's overblown, ridiculous and often grating but they come up with the coolest riffs and sounds at times (but often, just as you're getting into it, they throw in some ugly changes - eg. Eruption).

As with modern jazz, prog requires an educated ear. To the untrained ear that loves Top 40 wallpaper, prog and jazz sound messy, confused, overcomplicated and pointless.

As radio programmers reduced the variety of styles they'd play, people's ears became less open to the unusual. Yet mainstream artists have always fed off the more inventive groups on the fringe, reinventing the others' experiments in a more commercially palatable way. Thank deity for the internet or fringe music would be totally starved of exposure.
 
Oh yes, Metallica. I can't say I got in on the ground floor. I was too young to get into the clubs when they were a club band, and never actually heard them until later on.

I clearly remember that night in 1988. I had graduated high school. I was working part time at a drum shop. I came home from work, had dinner, did whatever, and turned on MTV. The world premier of "One" came on. I was floored. I had never seen anyone use double bass like that before. The sheer epic-ness, the sheer power. I ran out and bought the album.

In 1978, I was in awe of Van Halen as was everybody, and in 1984 I would have said that the biggest band would be U2, so I wasn't totally off the mark. But I wonder if some of the awe factor is lost with age. After the dense winter of Poison, Motley and the W bands, I did hear a refreshing breadth of creativity in GNR; but nothing that was going to give me the same awe and 'being floored' as in earlier days. Anyway, I had seen Aerosmith, and the thought of watching five drunks on stage was certainly not welcoming. Their reunion will probably be the best the band has every played, now that they are clean and sober, and also a lot more experienced.



I'm opposite to you, DED, give me 70s prog - and nowhere near metal - any day. Rush is hideous! *wink*.


Of the newer crop, I find Tool the outstanding act - great vibe and the drumming is wonderful. Deity help me but I like old ELP ... I know, I know ... it's overblown, ridiculous and often grating but they come up with the coolest riffs and sounds at times (but often, just as you're getting into it, they throw in some ugly changes - eg. Eruption).

ELP has a lot more going for it than people give them credit for. i.e The big dilemma of prog is how do you get 4 minutes of radio friendly music somewhere in your 30 minute epic. Emerson did that with KE9 1st imp part 2, where the whole epic is summed up in 5 minutes with the entrance of the great Sinfield line Welcome Back My Friends . . You had to be there. It's pure nonsense, somewhat Lewis Carroll, but it works. The whole idea of a industrial society that gives waste to a romantic ideology is the basis of heavy metal angst. That's what every kid goes through. You want to be alone in the woods, building forts and playing with you friends, and then one day they put a 'hammer' in your hand. You're the guy that has to chop all the trees down.
 
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Honestly, I like everything from prog to funk to r&b to jazz to techno to punk rock to classical to indigenous drum groups that nobody here would ever listen to. As for thinking that any genre is above the other is absolutely ridiculous and pretentious. Whether music comes from the drum beats of tribal origins or from the melodies of the almost drum free classical composers, it's all good to me. I love it all, and will never limit my music appreciation to one or a few genres.
 
Just today I saw a new commercial on FOX for baseball, where they are trying to come up with ideas to appeal to more of the younger generation. So as they start coverage of a ballgame, Tim McCarver starts talking and his voice is altered heavily with autotune. After about 15 seconds, Joe Buck throws his microphone down and says "I can't do this".

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on today's pop music.

Too bad I couldn't find the commercial to link to it.
 
ELP has a lot more going for it than people give them credit for. i.e The big dilemma of prog is how do you get 4 minutes of radio friendly music somewhere in your 30 minute epic. Emerson did that with KE9 1st imp part 2, where the whole epic is summed up in 5 minutes with the entrance of the great Sinfield line Welcome Back My Friends . . You had to be there. It's pure nonsense, somewhat Lewis Carroll, but it works. The whole idea of a industrial society that gives waste to a romantic ideology is the basis of heavy metal angst. That's what every kid goes through. You want to be alone in the woods, building forts and playing with you friends, and then one day they put a 'hammer' in your hand. You're the guy that has to chop all the trees down.

Great observations, Ken. It can go either way - they'll either find a way of accepting the cruddiness of the world or they'll increasingly fall into weltschmurtz. The special thing about angsty music is the stance isn't sustainable; it captures that little moment in time before it dissipates.

I thought ELP's instrumentals were their best - Toccata, The Barbarian, Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression, Eruption.

They also came up with some potentially lovely tracks that they managed to butcher - Still You Turn Me On ... gorgeous, if a bit dorky, but what was with "someone get me a ladder"? Rhymes with "madder" and "sadder"? Running out of time in the studio so grab anything that rhymes? Is he so overcome with emotion that he needs to distract himself with a bit of handyman work??

I wonder about the thought processes ... 'Hmm ... not much rhymes with "sadder" and "madder" ...I know! ... I've lost control of my bladder! ... No no, too crass ... umm ... I'm gonna kick a death adder? No, lacks drama ... Someone get me a ladder? ... hey, that's a bit iffy, Greg. ... Oh yeah? You think of something better, Carl ... How about you change the earlier lines to an easier rhyme? ... Nawwww, that's dumb. Bloody drummers!'.

And that wa-wa thing didn't fit. Or Take a Pebble ... it's going great and then there's this long, dull campfire strumming spot in the middle. Good on them for breaking the rules but, geez, they were pretty kooky and annoying at times lol ... Benny the Bouncer?

On the other hand, Carl P gets dissed unfairly for his groove - the man is a force.
 
Great observations, Ken. It can go either way - they'll either find a way of accepting the cruddiness of the world or they'll increasingly fall into weltschmurtz. The special thing about angsty music is the stance isn't sustainable; it captures that little moment in time before it dissipates.

I thought ELP's instrumentals were their best - Toccata, The Barbarian, Karn Evil 9: 2nd Impression, Eruption.

They also came up with some potentially lovely tracks that they managed to butcher - Still You Turn Me On ... gorgeous, if a bit dorky, but what was with "someone get me a ladder"? Rhymes with "madder" and "sadder"? Running out of time in the studio so grab anything that rhymes? Is he so overcome with emotion that he needs to distract himself with a bit of handyman work??

I wonder about the thought processes ... 'Hmm ... not much rhymes with "sadder" and "madder" ...I know! ... I've lost control of my bladder! ... No no, too crass ... umm ... I'm gonna kick a death adder? No, lacks drama ... Someone get me a ladder? ... hey, that's a bit iffy, Greg. ... Oh yeah? You think of something better, Carl ... How about you change the earlier lines to an easier rhyme? ... Nawwww, that's dumb. Bloody drummers!'.

And that wa-wa thing didn't fit. Or Take a Pebble ... it's going great and then there's this long, dull campfire strumming spot in the middle. Good on them for breaking the rules but, geez, they were pretty kooky and annoying at times lol ... Benny the Bouncer?

On the other hand, Carl P gets dissed unfairly for his groove - the man is a force.

Same goes for Trilogy. All that great piano music and then the most inane lyrics. I think much of that music stands better as an instrumental. Lake was not much of a lyricist. It's kind of the funny thing about being in a rock band. Oh, you're the singer, you have to write the lyrics. What about the drummer? So they brought in Sinfield, which was a good move. Sinfield had left Crimson that year because a mellotron almost fell on and killed him. Prog rock hazards. He was always a great conceptualist, another public school brat like Waters and Gabriel. It's all kind of silly but it's only rock n roll; it's theater. Read an opera libretto sometime. :)

I think ELP always gets a bad rap; but listen to the counterpoint throughout KE9, even in the drums with the lyrics, "Let the bridge computer speak." It's all counterpoint. There is an overt belief in prog rock that it dies with commercialism. It dies without it.
 
Same goes for Trilogy. All that great piano music and then the most inane lyrics. I think much of that music stands better as an instrumental. Lake was not much of a lyricist. It's kind of the funny thing about being in a rock band. Oh, you're the singer, you have to write the lyrics. What about the drummer? So they brought in Sinfield, which was a good move. Sinfield had left Crimson that year because a mellotron almost fell on and killed him. Prog rock hazards. He was always a great conceptualist, another public school brat like Waters and Gabriel. It's all kind of silly but it's only rock n roll; it's theater. Read an opera libretto sometime. :)

I think ELP always gets a bad rap; but listen to the counterpoint throughout KE9, even in the drums with the lyrics, "Let the bridge computer speak." It's all counterpoint. There is an overt belief in prog rock that it dies with commercialism. It dies without it.

Greg L played some tremendous bass with ELP but vocally he was so much better early on with Crimson. That shouting shtick of his is bloody grating lol. Yes, Pete Sinfield was a good move; he actually improved with ELP.

Good point with the opera. Pure escapism, like fantasy, horror and adventure movies, thrillers, abstract and pop art and cartoons. The stuff of life! Screw romantic pop, sexpots showing off and rom coms reminding me of all the cute stuff I've long been too cynical to care about - give me escapist lunacy any day :)
 
Greg L played some tremendous bass with ELP but vocally he was so much better early on with Crimson. That shouting shtick of his is bloody grating lol. Yes, Pete Sinfield was a good move; he actually improved with ELP.

Good point with the opera. Pure escapism, like fantasy, horror and adventure movies, thrillers, abstract and pop art and cartoons. The stuff of life! Screw romantic pop, sexpots showing off and rom coms reminding me of all the cute stuff I've long been too cynical to care about - give me escapist lunacy any day :)

I think your point about technological music prepping folks for the technological society was a good one. Science dictates uniformity. We increasingly live in a society where non-conformity is suspect. It's strange to think that there was actually a time when it was hip to be out there. But as popular as that music was, I don't think it ever dominated the popular music landscape, at least not in America. That is such the fallacy, that prog rock came along and destroyed the three-minute pop song, or that punk destroyed prog. It's as much a fallacy as rock n roll destroyed jazz. Tell that to Dizzy.

I liked that line in the other doc where, I think it was Rick Wakeman says punk came along and all of sudden it was not cool to be able to play your instrument. It was only England that bought into the rubbish. And then they tied that into the the English sentiment for reservation, and said they had been going against that all the time. That was why they found a greater sense of acceptance in America where there was not such reserve. It's kind of strange that American didn't have the same degree of success in prog rock, perhaps because it had no deep rooted classical tradition. Well, we had fusion. I get in trouble for saying fusion was America's prog rock.:p
 
I think your point about technological music prepping folks for the technological society was a good one. Science dictates uniformity. We increasingly live in a society where non-conformity is suspect. It's strange to think that there was actually a time when it was hip to be out there. But as popular as that music was, I don't think it ever dominated the popular music landscape, at least not in America. That is such the fallacy, that prog rock came along and destroyed the three-minute pop song, or that punk destroyed prog. It's as much a fallacy as rock n roll destroyed jazz. Tell that to Dizzy.

I liked that line in the other doc where, I think it was Rick Wakeman says punk came along and all of sudden it was not cool to be able to play your instrument. It was only England that bought into the rubbish. And then they tied that into the the English sentiment for reservation, and said they had been going against that all the time. That was why they found a greater sense of acceptance in America where there was not such reserve. It's kind of strange that American didn't have the same degree of success in prog rock, perhaps because it had no deep rooted classical tradition. Well, we had fusion. I get in trouble for saying fusion was America's prog rock.:p

Yes, now eccentricity = pathology. It's inefficient and therefore undesirable. Too many bloody people without enough time. What's on the radio? Ga Ga. Hey, that's catchy! Attention wanders to the next pressing obligation in Real Life (take kids to sport, do shopping, etc). Crimson? Ugh! What's that din! Soothe me ...

One thing taken from the 60s and 70s exploratory period that's endured (to say the least) is the theatrical side. The big show.

I agree about fusion being US's prog - the place for hot players to express themselves. Not sure why it gets you into trouble. When it came to American prog Zappa stands out a mile. Oh, and Beefheart. Then you had The Tubes before they were forced to pay their bills. Kansas had their moments, but a fair bit of it was just fancy AOR. Utopia had its moments but most people only know Todd R's soul tunes. Then some that didn't quite work out like Bebop Deluxe.

Never got into Rush. Annoying vocals and heavy rock with fancy bits. Soundwise it was pretty standard compared with other prog acts. Dream Theater seem to have similar taste issues to ELP. Tool's my fave of the new(ish) breed, and Don Cab. Have to say all those bands have tremendous drummers.

Most of the US fusion didn't have the same imagination in composition as the proggers but, in jazz tradition, the creativity often came in the improv and some of the musicianship was peerless. When I was a regular on Progarchives I was one of the people in the push to include Steely Dan.

I could see why there was resistance (the pop factor and only occasional shredding) but I figured that if they were going to include the "proto-prog" heavy groups like Purple and Sabs, surely they'd have a place for Dan. They ticked the boxes - quirky lyrics (and probably too good for prog :), challenging chord changes, incredible musicianship, unusual forms (Aja, Royal Scam, King of the World, Gold Teeth II), tricky accents and cut bars etc. Just that they were subtle and tasteful in the way they used the devices rather than hitting people over the head with it.
 
As far as PA, you and me both. Then they came to the conclusion that you had to include most everybody, first The Beatles, then Led Zep, then Steely Dan.

From what I remember, most of the Brit pop was classified as art rock, Pink Floyd, Yes, or Bowie because of its theatricality. You still see some docs that present it that way. There is that doc Seven Ages of Rock, I think it's another BBC doc.It presents it that way. Art rock included American groups like The Tubes or The Velvets,/Lou Reed or Roxy Music. Then at some point the Big Five became Progressive Rock; Pink Floyd, Genesis, ELP, Yes and Crimson. Originally it didn't include Floyd as it doesn't the 2008 BBC doc. Did you notice that omission? Progressive rock was ELP, early Genesis, Yes, Gentle Giant, Soft Machine,Van Der Graf or King Crimson, etc. The Big Seven? Some not so big. :)

I think Pink Floyd was originally omitted because by the time the term 'progressive rock' was being used to classify those bands a) the movement was over and b) Pink Floyd was such a stable on AOR and such a big seller. It's such a quandary of a term because then you have Ian Anderson saying that Pink Floyd was the most progressive band back in '67 and Tull was not progressive rock. And wouldn't you consider Talking Heads, Laurie Anderson or Kate Bush art rock? And of course as Ian, DED not Anderson, said, there are all the heavy metal bands form the 1980s that started to get more 'progressive,' Fates Warning, Queensryche and then Dream Theater.

You can argue the same thing about American musical Theater. It was dead by 1990 and then it was revived by Disney who took a then ailing 42nd, which was known for drugs and prostitution, and made it kid friendly. Now Broadway is the most popular tourist attraction in the US beating out the other most popular tourist attraction up to that point, which was Disneyland, now two and Disneyworld, Orlando, now three. If you watch the Disney channel you will see a bunch of shows that have nothing to do with reality and are steeped in cliches about student teacher roles, parent child roles, and male female roles. I think they are producing a generation of kids who have no real understanding of social roles. Kids that would talk on the phone or text while they are with another person. I was in a restaurant yesterday and there were six boys there. Two had headsets on. I longed for the days when they would come in with their boom box and blast their rap music. At least it was a social activity. :)
 
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