Simon Phillips

Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Probably put this in the wrong place to get noticed. I think Simon's playing in this is very reserved, even for a jazz drum track, but that's the point. Am I wrong? Perhaps playing this genre of jazz is all about being reserved. I'm looking at this from a rock drummer's perspective. That frustrates me a little because I can't get into the track sufficiently to form an opinion. The performance doesn't move me in the same way as other performaces he's done, but is that due to my lack of appreciation of the form?
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

I've seen much worse. The main problem here is the bass drum - which is just too heavy and thudded. His ride could do with more definition, but the snare isn't bad. In terms of feel, he could definitely swing it more, but the driving motion of his hi hats is well placed.

I'd like to see some more in-depth comments by those more qualified.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Oo tricky question, and depends on ones definition or qualification on what jazz or a jazz drummer is.

To answer it, Simon is a very accomplished player who can and is playing jazz here..( is jazz fusion jazz? ). I could add a lot of other names to that list including Gadd, Colauita, Weckl, Cobham,.. and so on. These, to my mind are all great players who can play lots of different things well, including jazz.

A jazz drummer on the other hand is someone who's life focus would be jazz, and these drummers tend to sound a little different from those coming from rock sensibilities like Simon or from session playing, or even latin players who also play jazz.

.. Jim Black, Eric Harland, Brian Blade, Ari Hoenig, Jeff Hamilton etc would be a few examples of the 2nd variety.

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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

This is difficult, you're right, but in this instance - to me - the music doesn't really qualify too much as 'fusion'. This is pretty straight-ahead stuff. The trumpet solo half way through is pure Davis.

I'd be interested in seeing what Gregg thinks. If his right foot wasn't so heavy, I couldn't find *too* much 'wrong' with this, other than that the music is very, very regressive. Personally fusion drummers don't count as jazz players to me. Weckl has gotten better in recent years, but his playing is far, far too clinical and doesn't lend itself to a straight-ahead concept, instead it works for very heavily scripted music.

I'm actually quite impressed with Phillips on this. He really doesn't disgrace himself.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Not bad at all and much better than other crossover from rock to jazz players i've seen.

Only thing I observed was something I find alot with rock players playing jazz that's quite common at first is the placement of heavy emphasis on the 1 of the bar {downbeat of the bar} to resolve certain phrases at the kit rather than what you see with more seasoned jazz focused players who lighten up the overall feel by using more elements of syncopation to highlight stronger the weaker parts of the beat in a given bar {resolution points as Bob Moses calls them} that gives it more of a buoyant frontward flowing motion when resolving setups and phrases in a swing based jazz concept setting.

Like I say though not bad at all, pretty decent actually, and he's on the right {better} track for playing swing based music.........
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Yeah, its got a real nice Elvin/McCoy Tyner feel. In that sense, his playing is not free enough to create the space needed. It's a little heavy. It is not a question of whether he can play jazz, or whether this is good or bad jazz. his playing on this specific recording is stylistically wrong. I wasn't a big Simon Phillips fan back in the day. But recently, each time I hear him, I am really impressed with his playing. He has a great groove. And this is a nice piece of music.
 
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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

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Only thing I observed was something I find alot with rock players playing jazz that's quite common at first is the placement of heavy emphasis on the 1 of the bar {downbeat of the bar} to resolve certain phrases at the kit rather than what you see with more seasoned jazz focused players who lighten up the overall feel by using more elements of syncopation to highlight stronger the weaker parts of the beat in a given bar {resolution points as Bob Moses calls them} that gives it more of a buoyant frontward flowing motion when resolving setups and phrases in a swing based jazz concept setting.

Very nicely explained, Stan.
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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

This is one of those questions that I get students asking me all the time. Can this drummer or that drummer play Jazz. It reminds me of one of my first drum teachers in the early 90's, who was an accomplished Jazz veteran. I was headed to music school and really started to get into players like Elvin and Tony, not to mention the music of Miles, Coltrane Shorter, Herbie, etc.. When we started getting into swinging and "feathering" the bass drum, I'd switch to my then quasi traditional grip. He asked me why I was doing that and I said "because I'm playing jazz". He then explained that I shouldn't think of it that way and that I was playing music. Obviously there were different concepts, dynamics, feels, etc.. but its still the same instrument. It was a good point. A few years later when I started getting more trio work I decided that I did want to pursue traditional grip (for Jazz) because of the Moeller technique but I still kind of approach the genres that way. You are bringing all that makes you a a unique player to any musical situation you face. Tony Williams played like Tony Williams whether it was bop or rock or fusion. He reacted to the music and played what he felt. I like that approach.

I loved Simon's playing on the Vantage point disc. No he isn't a Bop purist (not that he was playing Bop) but he did some cool stuff that only Simon can do. I like hearing more mainstream rock players approach jazz or jazz influenced music, its refreshing. Just like I love hearing jazz drummers playing rock, there's usually that unintended swing that's just, there!

I do a fair amount of "Jazz" playing and I approach it with as much respect and reverence
for the art as I can. I've spent years immersing myself in it, studying brushes, studying form, learning how different drummers approached standards. I play a 18" bass drum, traditional toms with coated heads tuned up high. Big K's, etc... I also show up dressed much differently then when I do gigs with rock bands. However I grew up listening to Rush, Zeppelin, Yes, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, REM, etc... I can't deny that my roots are deeply planted in rock music. My instincts have been developed to lean in a certain direction and no matter how many Max Roach solos I transcribe and try to mimick, there are certain things that just stay with you. I'm sure the same goes for guys and girls who grew up playing jazz and work in rock situations.

One of the best examples of a successful hybrid has to be Matt Chamberlain. He's an amalgamate of so many different styles yet plays like HIM no matter what musical situation he's in. When I hear Matt play with Bill Frissell or Brad Mehldau I get just as much as if Brian Blade (who I love) is playing. Simply because its a great musician reacting to the music, not faking it or trying to be authentic.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Simply because its a great musician reacting to the music, not faking it or trying to be authentic.

Yes! "Trying to be authentic," exactly. That's what keeps coming back to haunt jazz, in my opinion, the endless striving for authenticity. It's what makes it an interesting display in a museum, the "authenticity" concept. If you want authenticity the Preservation Hall Jazz Band is still performing in New Orleans.
If people say "The bass drum's too loud" or "The swing feel wasn't thus and so" or "It's stylistically wrong" then that pretty much keeps the music encased in amber. "In order to do it right (meaning authentically) you have to do it like this."
I would have though that doing jazz right means to push beyond all that dogma and find your own means of expressing it, whether or not the afficianados agree that it's "authentic."
Phillips is playing his take on jazz here and I think it's bloody good. I think he nailed it. If I'd never heard of him except for what I saw and heard on this clip I'd say "That's a damn good jazz drummer with his own unique style."
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Yes! "Trying to be authentic," exactly. That's what keeps coming back to haunt jazz, in my opinion, the endless striving for authenticity. It's what makes it an interesting display in a museum, the "authenticity" concept. If you want authenticity the Preservation Hall Jazz Band is still performing in New Orleans.
If people say "The bass drum's too loud" or "The swing feel wasn't thus and so" or "It's stylistically wrong" then that pretty much keeps the music encased in amber. "In order to do it right (meaning authentically) you have to do it like this."
I would have though that doing jazz right means to push beyond all that dogma and find your own means of expressing it, whether or not the afficianados agree that it's "authentic."
Phillips is playing his take on jazz here and I think it's bloody good. I think he nailed it. If I'd never heard of him except for what I saw and heard on this clip I'd say "That's a damn good jazz drummer with his own unique style."

You seem to miss the point as seems always the case in internet jazz discussions covering any jazz related topic. I offered the best I can do so take it or leave it with what is missing and could if covered make it even more "happening" in a traditional swing based jazz ensemble setting such as seen in the clip. There's always room for improvement covering any style of playing. If not where's the challenge to improve, grow and get even better at understanding and doing it in the first place?

To answer this same old tired {for me} argument I hear repeated {usually from non jazz players and listeners alike I might add in several cases} about being stuck in the box of the "authentic" traditions of jazz music and drumming with its so called "limitations" for not moving forward being "stuck in the past" my answer is have you ever heard of Erik Harland? He as just one example has futher brought to the table from being firmly rooted in the traditions of jazz music and jazz drumming a whole fresh but deep in {jazz} conception take on taking jazz drumming to the next evolutionary level and step for the music. Enough said............

Simon is most certainly on the right path but he not quite fully "there" yet.....
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

You seem to miss the point as seems always the case in internet jazz discussions covering any jazz related topic. I offered the best I can do so take it or leave it with what is missing and could if covered make it even more "happening" in a traditional swing based jazz ensemble setting such as seen in the clip. There's always room for improvement covering any style of playing. If not where's the challenge to improve, grow and get even better at understanding and doing it in the first place?

To answer this same old tired {for me} argument I hear repeated {usually from non jazz players and listeners alike I might add in several cases} about being stuck in the box of the "authentic" traditions of jazz music and drumming with its so called "limitations" for not moving forward being "stuck in the past" my answer is have you ever heard of Erik Harland? He as just one example has futher brought to the table from being firmly rooted in the traditions of jazz music and jazz drumming a whole fresh but deep in {jazz} conception take on taking jazz drumming to the next evoling level and step for the music. Enough said............

Simon is most certainly on the right path but he not quite fully "there" yet.....


I think the problem I see here is exactly the opposite, Stan, and that is as you stated earlier, a lack of authenticity. He is playing this piece in a kind of post-fusion straight up manner. It's a nice groove and a nice feel, but he is missing the whole stylistic element, isn't he? I would ask if that is because he is trying to do something original ??? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is a nice piece in a Coltrane quartet style. The keyboard is laying down these nice block chords. It is just calling for some syncopation. the drumming is very undergraduate in that sense, how a guy would play before he studied post-bop drumming.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

To quote Soft Machine's former drummer, Robert Wyatt:

"rock musicians tend to make clunky and old-fashioned jazz drummers, and jazz drummers tend to make effete and precious rock drummers"

Simon didn't sound clunky or old fashioned in that clip to me. As with guys like Phil Collins and Chester Thompson he's always struck me as a fusionesque drummer who tended to choose rock. Very fast, a flowing player who uses plenty of grace notes and has heaps of dynamic control.

I would think that striving for authenticity in any style to be a rather mannered approach to playing music. Fair enough if that's what you want to go for or you are looking to break into a scene, but if it's a side project like this then surely it would make most sense to simply play the tune as YOU? There's you, there's the music ... okay, what do you do to make this sound as good as you can?

I think that's what Simon did. In the main themes he seemed to play repeating figures a bit more than I would have expected, which struck me as more of a compositional prog rock approach than that of an improvising jazzer, as per Ken's comment, but it worked well to my, admittedly untrained, ear. I can imagine plenty of local jazzers not getting the tune to sound as good as Simon did.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

In your opinion.

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Yes based on hearing him play in this traditional swing based format on listening to it with my jazz "ears" and 34 years of playing this very music in question and keeping up on its latest developments. Everyone has got an opinion and mine's based on where i'm coming from from listening to it from a jazz drummers perspective and knowledge base. Funny how that works.....
 
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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

I think the problem I see here is exactly the opposite, Stan, and that is as you stated earlier, a lack of authenticity. He is playing this piece in a kind of post-fusion straight up manner. It's a nice groove and a nice feel, but he is missing the whole stylistic element, isn't he? I would ask if that is because he is trying to do something original ??? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This is a nice piece in a Coltrane quartet style. The keyboard is laying down these nice block chords. It is just calling for some syncopation. the drumming is very undergraduate in that sense, how a guy would play before he studied post-bop drumming.


Yes on all counts Ken.....
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Well, but how do you know that SImon Phillips hasn't studied post-bop drumming?

Because you can hear it in the delivery of his playing in the clip.....

Actually it sounds like he's been checking elements of it out more carefully. If he adds some more improvisational elements, call and response/dialogue with other ensemble members, some "spice" from buoyant elements of syncopation thrown in as I covered earlier into the mix he'll be having one complete smokin delivery believe me.

Like I said earlier I like it actually and was pleasantly surprised by it but per this specific well covered in the past by the masters jazz ensemble idiom further study is need to take it to the next step. Check out Tony Williams later crossover stuff blending swing and even 1/8th concepts together in the music. That hot fusion containing the colours of jazz swing based elements hit the "complete" bullseye for me in nearly the same exact jazz ensemble format lineup. I think that's what he is going after anyways from what I heard in the clip. the Tony later 90's quintet period sound and as heard also in his introduction solo.

I'm sure he will take it to the next step because i'm impressed where he has taken it so far.......
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Well, but how do you know that SImon Phillips hasn't studied post-bop drumming?

Because you can hear it in the delivery of his playing in the clip......

Okay, and now we're getting to the heart of the matter. You say can hear it in the delivery, and I believe you, but what if he's been an avid student of bop and post-bop drumming for many years and the way he's playing here is the result of all that study?
What if he's decided to approach it in a different way, a way more to his liking and more the way he wants to express his take on this music?
Look at what people said about Monk. "All wrong," "clumsy," "no technique." And these were jazz guys saying that. I mention Monk because he never changed his approach, the rest of the jazz scene changed its perception of his approach.
Now of course I'm not comparing Simon Phillips to Thelonious Monk. But I do have to wonder about the idea that studying a style of music will always lead to the same way of playing it.
 
Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Okay, and now we're getting to the heart of the matter. You say can hear it in the delivery, and I believe you, but what if he's been an avid student of bop and post-bop drumming for many years and the way he's playing here is the result of all that study?
What if he's decided to approach it in a different way, a way more to his liking and more the way he wants to express his take on this music?
Look at what people said about Monk. "All wrong," "clumsy," "no technique." And these were jazz guys saying that. I mention Monk because he never changed his approach, the rest of the jazz scene changed its perception of his approach.
Now of course I'm not comparing Simon Phillips to Thelonious Monk. But I do have to wonder about the idea that studying a style of music will always lead to the same way of playing it.

Unfair comparison really. Monk WAS a revolutionary jazz figure BUT he was coming from a very specific deeply rooted tradition that came before him in jazz to which he branched off of. Monk was THE master of syncopation'conterpoint in his writing and ensemble playing {soloing/comping} too don't forget. Certainly a "jazz based" musician his entire career but many didn't get Monk at the time it was going down.

Look at the way Ken hinted at it. Simon is obviously playing with a backup band of seasoned jazz pros. You can hear in their playing, I can. And like Ken said since he's playing in that specific format with these people playing off the same common "language" of music why not play more off the piano players syncopated comping figures and such rather than finishing phrases and such by leaning heavy on the downbeats of the bars instead missing the moment of the locking up on the buoyant extra push in the ensemble that could be happening as just one example worth pointing out. Doesn't sound like a new take on drum innovations or "my take on it" but more of lack of experience with a common jazz language and rules of engagement that seems better shared by the rest of the musicians playing the music on the stage during the tune other than the drummer in this case. He's working on it for sure but he's no master of the complex jazz ensemble language yet.

Just my thoughts and observations take it or leave it, no worries..........
 
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Re: Can Simon play jazz?

Watching Neil Peart play swing was like watching Dave Weckl play rock. They may have some theory knowledge, but fail miserably when trying to put it into practice. This, however, was quite excellent, and I don't even normaly really like jazz. As for the bass drum, I can't stand the tiny, highly tuned bop bass drums, and I thought Simon's sounded great.
 
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