Concert toms.

Bermuda can you get a good sound from a concert tom with a single ply head without any muffling? Or do you have to have muffling? I haven't tried them in sooo long

I haven't tried 1-ply heads on them, I think they'd be best-suited for the concert toms' original purpose: as melodic percussion toms played with mallets (remember, the term 'concert' was a reference to orchestral work, not a rock concert.) But I guess it depends on the style at hand, and the particular head. Not everyone is required to use hydraulics or black/silver dot heads, which were the fave heads for those drums... 35 years ago.

For me, muffling is more about taming the occasional banginess in a head, rather than trying to extract thump or control decay. Note the minimal tape (and mic placement) on the toms:

ctoms_studio.jpg


These toms were full, resonant, and only one of them required any eq (I think the 15".) Again, with a single head, there aren't any inherent weird overtones that a double-headed is subject to as a result of conflicting head tunings, the drum's size, and the note that size tends to dictate. So a good sound is easier to achieve, with the only sacrifice being some decay, which is lost in the context of the music anyway.

Unless you deliberately tune & muffle for deadness, there's no reason that concert toms can't sound great.

Bermuda
 
I'm with Bermuda in this one. I like concert toms (as per Mike's Phil Collins link) ... and I also agree they are more forgiving when it comes to tuning. In the 70s/80s I took off my bottom heads, used pinstripes and dampened my toms to death. What can I say? Lots of people were doing it at the time and I didn't know any better ... but it did cut me slack in the tuning department and our sound guys were happy to take control.

Drums don't need two heads to sound great ... congas, bongos, timbales. Single-headed drums aren't worse IMO, just different.

PS. Those Luddies must look even more amazing under lights!
 
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There's nothing wrong with concert toms, it's just that I don't like them. If you want that single head sound, and you can cope with restricted adjustment compared to two headed toms, great. They can sound cool when mic'd from the underneath, sort of a "tube" quality to my ears.

Given that the majority of drummers really sruggle with double head tuning, perhaps they're set for a comeback!
 
Anyone have insight as to why you typically see a double headed floor tom supplied with concert tom kits?

This never made much sense to me, maybe some knowledge could fix that?

Thanks.
 
Anyone have insight as to why you typically see a double headed floor tom supplied with concert tom kits?

I never thought about it before, I assume that originating as a 'set' of toms rather than part of a kit, those toms go together, and anything else is considered separate.

No?

Bermuda
 
I'm not sure one of us is picking up what the other is throwing down here, Bermuda.

In your lovely examples of kits with concert toms; were they acquired as a complete set including the kick and floor, or did they come separately?

Why is the floor tom not a concert as well?

I've seen this on loads of different kits, including the first kit I ever played, (Westbury, 4 mounted concert toms and a double headed floor and kick), and imagine they were originally sold as a complete kit, just as countless other kits I've seen over the years...

Quick internet research... from the pages of Ludwig, circa 1975:

http://www.vintagedrumguide.com/images/ludwig_sets/1975_ludwig_drumsets4.jpg
 
In your lovely examples of kits with concert toms; were they acquired as a complete set including the kick and floor, or did they come separately?

The 4-tom kit is part of the 8-tom kit pictured early in the thread. However, you are correct to ask, since the kit as I have it is neither a Quadra- or Octa-plus, each of which has a tom mount on the kick/s. In fact, my kit didn't really exist at all apart from a special order, or adding the 4 smaller toms to an Overdrive kit (which had a virgin kick.)

The s/n's vary, but the 6, 13, 14, 18 & 24" are grouped together, which is an odd group for the basic kit. Then again, similar badge #s meant little at Ludwig, my #s range from 1710xxx to 1889xxx.

So, I don't know how my particular kit was assembled, but I bought it as a kit (not incl the snare) and every rod, hoop, lug gasket, claw, screw and mount was in place and original, so I'm thankful the owner/s were very meticulous.

Why is the floor tom not a concert as well?

Asked and conjectured above.

Bermuda
 
Bermuda, If the 70's make a comeback then I'll be celebrating along with you.

I've been curious about concert toms since I learned about them. A seasoned drummer told me about how he used to see them all the time in the 70's. Upon reading this thread and seeing Bermuda's beautiful kits I believe I'll give this a try on my 4 piece with some old batter hears and a razor blade.

I'll let you all know how it sounds...
 
I believe I'll give this a try on my 4 piece with some old batter hears and a razor blade.

Remember that the classic concert tom sound came from 3-ply shells, with the lightweight mount placed high, and without the additional hardware for a reso head. Simply eliminating the bottom head from a standard, modern tom will yield a different sound, which might be better, or worse... I don't know. When I needed the classic sound, I sought the correct-sounding drums from that era, and the Vistalites are surprisingly great. I was never a fan back in the day, but as I mentioned, new head types make a huge difference in the way concert toms (and Vistalites and stainless drums) sound compared to the limited selection of heads in the '70s, when a Pinstripe was considered revolutionary!

BTW, I have been petitioning Ludwig to make Legacy concert toms, and/or Keystone concert toms, which would be really powerful!

Bermuda
 
Sorry, concert toms, ewww yuck.
None for me thanks. Especially unmiked. (shudders)
To each his own. Pull your bottom heads off your existing drums, play them and then decide if you prefer the sound. It's definitely different.

Ditto for me..There are some drum shells that for one reason or another you just cant get that one drum to sing like the rest,i love having the bottom head to play with to GET IT RIGHT...Just have more to play with,if ya know what i mean.........Everyonce and a while i play with some guys and theres a old set of ludwigs with concert toms At the place,...I have no luck with them.....Im sure if i replaced heads maybe but they are not my cup of tea......
 
The fact is, with correct miking - just at the edge of the bottom of the drum, not on top of the batter - concert toms are rich and resonant. Pair that with the advances in head technology compared to 35 years ago, and concert toms sound like they never could before. Maybe the biggest advantage to a single-headed drum is that it's easier to tune.

Some people like that sound, most notably, Phil Collins. He played concert toms for years and they hugely contributed to his unique sound. But that's the only sound you'll ever get from them. If you're okay with that, then you're good to go. If not, keep looking.

...hmm, maybe you could use some gated reverb! :D
 
Just an update, gave this a try on my 12" rack. Marked a ring around the rim with a sharpie and a spacer then cut it out with a razor knife. I proved a lot easier to tune but I noticed that the overtones were much more prominent, I'm using G2 batters on my toms though.

I've thought of trying it on the floor tom too and using felt strips to roll off some of the overtones.

Strangely and slightly off topic, my favorite sound from the toms was with the stock single ply heads on there. A nice full, resonant sound.

Is is a nisch-nisch (no-no) to use coated heads for heavier rock?
 
I haven't tried 1-ply heads on them, I think they'd be best-suited for the concert toms' original purpose: as melodic percussion toms played with mallets (remember, the term 'concert' was a reference to orchestral work, not a rock concert.) But I guess it depends on the style at hand, and the particular head. Not everyone is required to use hydraulics or black/silver dot heads, which were the fave heads for those drums... 35 years ago.

For me, muffling is more about taming the occasional banginess in a head, rather than trying to extract thump or control decay. Note the minimal tape (and mic placement) on the toms:

ctoms_studio.jpg


These toms were full, resonant, and only one of them required any eq (I think the 15".) Again, with a single head, there aren't any inherent weird overtones that a double-headed is subject to as a result of conflicting head tunings, the drum's size, and the note that size tends to dictate. So a good sound is easier to achieve, with the only sacrifice being some decay, which is lost in the context of the music anyway.

Unless you deliberately tune & muffle for deadness, there's no reason that concert toms can't sound great.

Bermuda

hey Bermuda, so are you and Al trying to replicate that old Hal Blaine sound of the 70's? He was using a huge kit of concert toms on a lot of the hits he played on in the 70's, although I don't think they were vistalites. BTW is that white snare the thick 6 ply wood shell, or is it a vistalite too?

And, one of the reasons I like concert toms is I find them easier to play, since they don't have all those vibrations goin on from the reso head. I started out playing concert toms for many years, and the first time I played 2 headed toms I found them more difficult to play an even roll on. Actually, mine were 2 headed Ludwig 3 plies, but I took off the bottom lugs and heads because I didn't want to waste money on bottom heads back in those days, since I used the resos for batters when money was tight. I also didn't really care about sound back in those days, so I was fine with whatever I had.
 
Hey Bermuda, I had good luck pointing a 57 (from the same position) across the drum to the opposite corner. That seemed to add depth and some thunder to the concert tom sound..
 
hey Bermuda, so are you and Al trying to replicate that old Hal Blaine sound of the 70's? He was using a huge kit of concert toms on a lot of the hits he played on in the 70's, although I don't think they were vistalites. BTW is that white snare the thick 6 ply wood shell, or is it a vistalite too?

Hal's toms were made by Allen Blaemire, and were fiberglass wrapped around a mandrill (a mold, not a monkey!) much like my old Impacts. Yes we do have a song on the new album that requires the classic sound, but I used them on another track as well. The snare is a Legacy, with a cut-out overlay to wet it and bring the pitch down.

Bermuda
 
Hal's toms were made by Allen Blaemire, and were fiberglass wrapped around a mandrill (a mold, not a monkey!) much like my old Impacts. Yes we do have a song on the new album that requires the classic sound, but I used them on another track as well. The snare is a Legacy, with a cut-out overlay to wet it and bring the pitch down.

Bermuda

Here's a couple shots of Hal on the "Monster" kit. Even though I built my Blaemire kit double-headed, I think I'm going to see about building a few Blaemire concert toms down the road.
 

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