English drummer killed in attack.

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Wow, that's a good story and a model for positive engagement.

I sense the British media are very biased against the EDL. Yeah, their name is a bit confrontational, but I've looked over their literature and they are consistent in their opposition to violent, radical hate factions - not to any religion in general. They also have a strong LGBT faction, as LGBT are subject to beheading and death in hardline Islamic states and are suffering increasing attacks in Britain.

Sorry, lovely, they are a neo-fascist racist entity, who would have me sent back to a country only one of my parents vaguely knew of.

It comes to something, when the sight of your chosen country's flag fills you with fear, no??
 
I suspect they believe you're evil because they believe the propaganda, old bean. People are the same everywhere.

There's a lot of tension due to globalisation. The world is in transition to a new age according to Michio Kaku, who has some very interesting thoughts on all this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NPC47qMJVg

I don't think these people are deluded, or misinformed due to propaganda. They know what I believe and I know what they believe (for clarity, pretend the words "violent Muslim extremists" are inserted parenthetically after every word I write here). We have beliefs that we hold dear and they have beliefs they hold dear and we are all very vocal about what they are in this increasingly interconnected world. Websites on the Internets, stories about life in far-off lands where rape victims are subject to public flogging, pictures of public demonstrations with large-letter signs, random butchery in the streets with a video explanation - stuff like that is hard to miss, or misinterpret.

When people call for the beheading of those who insult them, I take them at their word, at least as a matter of courtesy. Like Maya Angelou said, "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them."
 
I don't think these people are deluded, or misinformed due to propaganda. They know what I believe and I know what they believe (for clarity, pretend the words "violent Muslim extremists" are inserted parenthetically after every word I write here). We have beliefs that we hold dear and they have beliefs they hold dear and we are all very vocal about what they are in this increasingly interconnected world. Websites on the Internets, stories about life in far-off lands where rape victims are subject to public flogging, pictures of public demonstrations with large-letter signs, random butchery in the streets with a video explanation - stuff like that is hard to miss, or misinterpret.

When people call for the beheading of those who insult them, I take them at their word, at least as a matter of courtesy. Like Maya Angelou said, "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them."

There's a difference between religious dogma and cultural belief. The latter is largely responsible for wrongs committed, and is at once the easiest and most difficult to rectify.
 
Sorry, lovely, they are a neo-fascist racist entity, who would have me sent back to a country only one of my parents vaguely knew of.

It comes to something, when the sight of your chosen country's flag fills you with fear, no??


Unfortunately, the EDL are victims of misdirected internal extremists just as much as Islam, Christianity, et al. The core of the EDL ideology is surprisingly anti-fascist if you took the time to read it with an unbiased mind and they have some core members who are of non-white origins... but there are a few idiots who appropriate the name and act in an extreme fashion - much like the idiots who blow themselves up or behead people in the street in the name of Islam. You cannot tar them all with the same brush in almost the same breath as saying you cannot judge all Islamics by the the lunatic few. The EDL is not the National Front, and they certainly are not Nazis - regardless of what a few 'members' claim to be.

No need to be scared of the English Flag, embrace it! We wouldn't be in such a mess if more people who migrate to this country just embraced the culture and adapted as is appropriate. When I visit Muslim countries (Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, etc), me and my lady take care to adjust our behavior and dress to befit the country we are guests in. I expect the same of people who come to ours. Things like the Burka/Hijab, in my opinion, have no place in the UK as we oppose oppression of women, and it is culturally unacceptable to hide your face in public. I know I wouldn't be able to wear a balaclava around the town centre so why can someone wear a Burka!?!

Again, the medias 'pick-and-choose' coverage mentality molds peoples opinions without proper education.

I would urge you to read this:

http://englishdefenceleague.org/home/about-us

Before you judge a group of people based solely popular opinion and media output (sound familiar?)


*please note, I am not a supporter of the EDL, just common sense!
 
Unfortunately, the EDL are victims of misdirected internal extremists just as much as Islam, Christianity, et al. The core of the EDL ideology is surprisingly anti-fascist if you took the time to read it with an unbiased mind and they have some core members who are of non-white origins... but there are a few idiots who appropriate the name and act in an extreme fashion - much like the idiots who blow themselves up or behead people in the street in the name of Islam. You cannot tar them all with the same brush in almost the same breath as saying you cannot judge all Islamics by the the lunatic few. The EDL is not the National Front, and they certainly are not Nazis - regardless of what a few 'members' claim to be.

No need to be scared of the English Flag, embrace it! We wouldn't be in such a mess if more people who migrate to this country just embraced the culture and adapted as is appropriate. When I visit Muslim countries (Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, etc), me and my lady take care to adjust our behavior and dress to befit the country we are guests in. I expect the same of people who come to ours. Things like the Burka/Hijab, in my opinion, have no place in the UK as we oppose oppression of women, and it is culturally unacceptable to hide your face in public. I know I wouldn't be able to wear a balaclava around the town centre so why can someone wear a Burka!?!

Again, the medias 'pick-and-choose' coverage mentality molds peoples opinions without proper education.

I would urge you to read this:

http://englishdefenceleague.org/home/about-us

Before you judge a group of people based solely popular opinion and media output (sound familiar?)


*please note, I am not a supporter of the EDL, just common sense!

Why do I feel comfortable flying the Welsh flag and singing the Welsh national anthem, in Welsh, when I am not comfortable with the English equivalents?
 
...

Im coming close to the bone here on the forum rules, and forgive me if I transgress, but I'm trying to see DMC's point for what it is here.

( Grea is going to call me a bleeding heart liberal again, but.. ) where I agree is that I'd love to hear a liberal, moderate, modernist view from the part of the world under question here. I dont hear those voices. I dont see the people who represent the saner viewpoint anywhere. One could argue that the media doesnt find that very attractive which is why they arent visible, but somehow I think thats only partially true.

That said, the 'evil people' argument scares me to death. It has almost wiped out continents and entire races of people. It just doesnt work. The history of the world is proof. Just one small example of what the Third Riech did in Poland in1939 is probably much worse by comparision and it wasnt that long ago.

Theres got to be another way.




...
 
Why do I feel comfortable flying the Welsh flag and singing the Welsh national anthem, in Welsh, when I am not comfortable with the English equivalents?


I am jealous of the Welsh for this very reason!

Fortunatly, in Wales, you still have a very strong sense of cultural identity and empowerment instilled from a young age. In England we are subconsciously taught that to be 'proud to be English' is to be inherently viewed as slightly racist. Ironically, the Welsh and the Scottish are horrifically racist towards the English. Hell, I saw souvenir mugs in Wales about hating the English... in plain sale in a shop! Also, there was the laughably ironic anti-racists chanting at the leader on the UKIP party to 'go back to England' after chasing him into a pub just last week!!!

We get told off for flying our flag at our homes, you are encouraged to.

I am English born and raised, (yet of split French, Dutch, Scottish and American heritage) but I am not proud to be English. Until my country gives me something to be proud of, that is unlikely to change. When the people finally grow some 'balls', vote in UKIP and proactively clean up this country under our own terms, then we'll be on our way to something. Australia have it right - if you don't like how we do things, **** off!
 
My father summed it up for me in a simple way that even I could understand. He said, on one "side" you have people who value life more than death, and by gum they are convinced they are in the right. On the other "side" you have people who value death more than life who are even more convinced they are in the right. That's what we have to work with. No changing it. I just don't see that coming together anytime soon. That's just the way it is. The only thing you can do is to attempt to work with what you have. Acceptance. You can't have positive without negative, just like you can't have night without day. Life does not work that way. Life has to balance. For every 1.4367 ounces of positive in the universe, there has to be 1.4367 ounces of negative. It's just physics. Our Sun has exactly as much energy trying to blow it apart, as it has trying to collapse in on itself. It could not exist without perfect balance, and neither can people apparently.

If this titanic social issue were an electrical problem that I had to troubleshoot, this is what I'd do.

At some point, one side, for the sake of everyone, has to take it upon themselves, to "admit defeat" to the other "side". The energy between them has to be be neutralized by one side moving over to the other. The 2 sides HAVE to come together as one, there's no other way. What it takes is one side being more socially mature than the other, like a parent to a child. Like OK you guys win. What is it you want us to do? Only then is there a chance of actual talk and progress. Just for clarity, I'm not saying the one side has to do what the other side wants, the whole idea is to open a new dialogue that's never been explored before. I say let's throw the towel in this Jihad war and declare a winner. You guys win. We are not as passionate about life as you are about death. So can we move on? What can we do to work together? Hey that might not work but what we're doing isn't working either. It's a pipe dream.



Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Clearly, we are all insane lol.
 
Might I also add that where I live, we are subject to a very recent influx of a particular race previously very small in the community (Nepalese). In the last 4 years our population has risen from approx 80,000 to 92'000, of which 94% of that extra 12,000 have been from Nepal. That's 1 in 9 people! Coupled with the fact that most of them are past working age and often in ill health, it has put a massive strain on the local services and economy. There is a lack of housing, school places and doctors appointments. It has had an extremely detrimental effect on the area and is the cause of a lot of unrest.

They have failed to integrate, more often than not learn none of our language, and put no money into the local economy. They spit all over the street, they defecate in the streets (we have a 4am cleanup team run by the council to clean certain 'hotspots') and their teenagers have a strange lack of value towards the locals (rapes, carrying knives, muggings). There have been many related hate crimes (from both sides!) of which none have been reported in the media, and have been actively covered up to keep tensions down.

Situations like this are breeding grounds for extremists and it is just another example of how things can come to a head very quickly, and fuels the extremist English view. Sometimes, people have good reason to be a little bit racist - it is unfortunate human nature.
 
I am jealous of the Welsh for this very reason!

Fortunatly, in Wales, you still have a very strong sense of cultural identity and empowerment instilled from a young age. In England we are subconsciously taught that to be 'proud to be English' is to be inherently viewed as slightly racist. Ironically, the Welsh and the Scottish are horrifically racist towards the English. Hell, I saw souvenir mugs in Wales about hating the English... in plain sale in a shop! Also, there was the laughably ironic anti-racists chanting at the leader on the UKIP party to 'go back to England' after chasing him into a pub just last week!!!

We get told off for flying our flag at our homes, you are encouraged to.

I am English born and raised, (yet of split French, Dutch, Scottish and American heritage) but I am not proud to be English. Until my country gives me something to be proud of, that is unlikely to change. When the people finally grow some 'balls', vote in UKIP and proactively clean up this country under our own terms, then we'll be on our way to something. Australia have it right - if you don't like how we do things, **** off!

We are neither encouraged nor discouraged to fly the Welsh flag. I'm half English, I was born there and I've lived in England most of my life, but the sight of the Welsh flag doesn't scare me the way the English one does these days.

I don't want to be sent back. Not to England, anyway. Too parochial.
 
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Dear God, I've heard everything now.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!! GROW UP


Honestly, in your heart of hearts do you reckon that say, in your town... within 4 years suddenly you couldn't get a doctors appointment for weeks, get a space in a dental surgery, couldn't get your kids into a school, had to avoid human excrement in the street, it became unsafe to walk through your parks even in the daytime, and your town centre becomes a ghost town due to the lack of money being spent in the area (and people from neighbouring towns stopping visiting) - all because of an influx of a particular race of people - you wouldn't become a little resentful of them? You'd just accept it and embrace the new lower standard of living you now have to endure?

If you say no, then I call BS.


Don't tell me to 'grow up', I'm a very accommodating guy, but sometimes your eyes are opened when it affects you directly. I was the victim of racial hatred IN LONDON FOR BEING WHITE when I lived in a predominantly black area, yet I didn't start hating them - I moved away and left them to it. There are areas of this town that are no-go areas for white, English people now. Even the 1st generation Indian and Pakistani and West Indian migrants that live here are sick of the Nepalese that have swamped the town. I am a grown up, because I can see it for what it is.
 
Sorry. You can say what you like but there is never any excuse for racism. You may be unhappy with a perceived change in living conditions as a result of increased population but that is utterly separate to the region that these individuals are from. If you could live in a country where human rights are respected, the rule of law is generally well implemented, access to courts is relatively fair and the levels of political corruption are low - wouldn't you also move from a country where none of these examples were present? If the population had simply increased as a result of increased birth rates and decreased birth rates then you would have exactly the same problems with living conditions that you cite.

Yeah. You would move. You and I both know you would.

You don't counter racism with racism either. You counter it with embracing the cultural differences and opening a dialogue.
 
Honestly, in your heart of hearts do you reckon that say, in your town... within 4 years suddenly you couldn't get a doctors appointment for weeks, get a space in a dental surgery, couldn't get your kids into a school, had to avoid human excrement in the street, it became unsafe to walk through your parks even in the daytime, and your town centre becomes a ghost town due to the lack of money being spent in the area (and people from neighbouring towns stopping visiting) - all because of an influx of a particular race of people - you wouldn't become a little resentful of them? You'd just accept it and embrace the new lower standard of living you now have to endure?

If you say no, then I call BS.

So what are you saying? Be honest. What do you think of people from Nepal? ALL OF THEM. They make your life worse, right? ALL OF THEM? That's all that matters, right? Because you're self-admittedly a racist, right? Draw your line in the sand bro and get out. Or is possibly the fault of anything else? YOur gov't can't cope? Or what? But really, it's the Nepalese people you don;t like. Change is evil.
 
Sorry. You can say what you like but there is never any excuse for racism. You may be unhappy with a perceived change in living conditions as a result of increased population but that is utterly separate to the region that these individuals are from. If you could live in a country where human rights are respected, the rule of law is generally well implemented, access to courts is relatively fair and the levels of political corruption are low - wouldn't you also move from a country where none of these examples were present? If the population had simply increased as a result of increased birth rates and decreased birth rates then you would have exactly the same problems with living conditions that you cite.

Yeah. You would move. You and I both know you would.

You don't counter racism with racism either. You counter it with embracing the cultural differences and opening a dialogue.


You're saying that I'd have human sh*t on the paths around town? That there would be 2 dedicated days in my local surgery to Nepalese residents - where they have to employ translators (£45,000 a year each by the way) - that you're not allowed an appointment on... if these people were English born? No. That is a direct byproduct of there being an influx of a particular race of people. Fact.

There was no sh*t on the streets before they flooded the area, there was no language restrictions on public services, and the population rise was approx 5% per year.

This isn't racism, it's honesty. Facts and honesty from someone who lives here (moved into the area about 10 years ago). I don't blame them for coming over - I blame the government for giving them an open un-controlled door in without prior thought as to spreading them about a bit to ease the strain on local services.

I have 6 Nepalese in the house next door to me, a 2 bedroom property, and they wash in the front garden, chase my cats and crap in the back garden. This is not an isolated incident.
 
So what are you saying? Be honest. What do you think of people from Nepal? ALL OF THEM. They make your life worse, right? ALL OF THEM? That's all that matters, right? Because you're self-admittedly a racist, right? Draw your line in the sand bro and get out. Or is possibly the fault of anything else? YOur gov't can't cope? Or what? But really, it's the Nepalese people you don;t like. Change is evil.

Actually, I know a handful that are lovely people. The MAJORITY, however, are a nuisance and a drain. Sorry but its true. I'm not a racist, I'm a realist and say it how I see it. I grew up in a multilingual household, with friends from all over the world.

Whatever. I don't like the Nepalese people that have ruined my area. There, cards on the table.

Positive change is good, negative is evil.
 
You're saying that I'd have human sh*t on the paths around town? That there would be 2 dedicated days in my local surgery to Nepalese residents - where they have to employ translators (£45,000 a year each by the way) - that you're not allowed an appointment on... if these people were English born? No. That is a direct byproduct of there being an influx of a particular race of people. Fact.

There was no sh*t on the streets before they flooded the area, there was no language restrictions on public services, and the population rise was approx 5% per year.

This isn't racism, it's honesty. Facts and honesty from someone who lives here (moved into the area about 10 years ago). I don't blame them for coming over - I blame the government for giving them an open un-controlled door in without prior thought as to spreading them about a bit to ease the strain on local services.

I have 6 Nepalese in the house next door to me, a 2 bedroom property, and they wash in the front garden, chase my cats and crap in the back garden. This is not an isolated incident.

Would you say the same thing if they were English? I suspect not.

Yes, there are plenty of arguments about controlling immigration that are not screaming and incoherent. In the grand scheme of things, two translators at 45,000 Pounds a year is nothing compared to the (so-called) 'native' population of Britain that likewise are a drain on local resources.

You are ignoring the fact that the established English population are also capable of acting in exactly the same manner you are ascribing to the immigrant community. Where I live, the immigrant population (a large Sikh minority) are anything but a drain on local resources and it is elsewhere that the problem lies. I am not painting with a wide brush to say that I have never once had any issue with an immigrant community beyond isolated incidents that have also occurred with non-immigrants. If my neighbours left crap in my garden, I'd contact the appropriate authorities - regardless of whether they were Nepalese, Irish, English or Chinese.

The fact that you feel the need to paint the 'Nepalese' with a wide brush and ascribing negative characteristics to an entire race of people speaks volumes about the credibility of your testimony.

You're not a racist yet you don't like 'The Nepalese'? Well, that's racism right there. If you said the same thing about 'Black People' or 'Nigerians' or 'Pakistanis' you would likewise be called racist. You are a racist.
 
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