Breaking Cymbals

Im glad that this discussion didn't turn into a fist to cuff.
That has happened many times before while this subject was being tossed about.

I guess that there will be drummers that crack cymbals along with drummers that don't.
I am glad that I don't break them because at over $300 a pop I couldn't afford it.
It is good to let people know that there are ways to minimize the possibility of breaking cymbals.
Im sure that the drummers that break cymbals from time to time will appreciate the advice that was given.

Perhaps a few pies will be saved or prolonged to become vintage.
 
Oddly enough, besides my cheapo starter cymbals, the only crashes I've ever broken are medium and rock crashes. My medium thins and thins have all survived 20 something years.

I posted this on the last huge breaking cymbals thread. Cymbals are thin metal. Every time they're hit sufficiently hard, they flex and warp for a second and then snap back into shape. However, metal can flex only so many times before it fatigues and breaks. Play around with a paper clip and you'll see what I mean.

And it's not only thin cymbals either. Neil Peart is choking a 16" Paragon crash in this picture - an arguably medium to thick crash - and look at it flex.
 

Attachments

  • np_r30med.jpg
    np_r30med.jpg
    47.4 KB · Views: 2,411
Alparrott, It is amazing how much cymbals do flex.
Here is a pic of one of my crashes flexing as I struck it.
I wasn't even hitting it hard.
 

Attachments

  • Pics Riders 058.jpg
    Pics Riders 058.jpg
    48 KB · Views: 2,418
At one time when I was new to drumming, I was watching drum solos and saw a china cymbal. I thought it was an upside down crash, so I turned my beat up Pearl CX 300 crash that i bought used upside down... that didn't survive very long... I usually dont count that as breaking a cymbal because I had been drumming for about a week and it was a Pearl cymbal.

Anyway, back on topic, other than that cymbal the only other cymbal I have broken was a Sabian B8 14" thin crash, which really stood no chance against punk drumming.

If you play rock/punk, your probably going to break a lower line cymbal. Once you get pro level cymbals they'll last much longer because 1. They flex more 2. You'll care more about technique because you won't want to replace them
 
bobdadruma said:
Im glad that this discussion didn't turn into a fist to cuff.
That has happened many times before while this subject was being tossed about.

I guess that there will be drummers that crack cymbals along with drummers that don't.
I am glad that I don't break them because at over $300 a pop I couldn't afford it.
It is good to let people know that there are ways to minimize the possibility of breaking cymbals.
Im sure that the drummers that break cymbals from time to time will appreciate the advice that was given.

Perhaps a few pies will be saved or prolonged to become vintage.
Click to expand...

Another way I feel about this is, the less cymbals you break, the more you're able to add to your collection for different tones, sounds and voices instead of replacing what you already have due to cracking. Buying cymbals for me is a very laborious job, one that I don't take lightly. The people at the Five Star shop where I make most of my purchases, just smile and shake their heads when they see me coming through the door with my cymbal bag. I actually lost count on the number of cymbals I own, I know it's over fifty. Most of my crash cymbals I buy are in one inch intervals to one another, this makes double crashing a breeze with basically the same musical blend or tones in case I do need the extra volume instead of stressing just one. I do use felts, top and bottom along with good sleeves to protect the mounting hole of the cymbals. Not often, but once in a while I might strike some of my cymbals from underneath, maybe coming off a floor tom roll or fill, so yea, I use wing nuts on my mounts. I usually keep about a half inch of air between the top of my cymbals and the top felt to let them breathe. Glancing blows is really the ticket for a more extended life for you cymbals. If you're not taught that way from the beginning, sometimes crashing down through is a very difficult habit to break.

Just things I thought I would add, since I didn't realise this topic would get as far as it did.

Dennis
 
MikeM said:
If I may...I don't use any top felts, either. I see that most people do (pros and non-pros alike) and have never understood it. What does a top felt protect against?
Click to expand...

It protects the cymbal from swinging too freely and putting sudden torque on the bell hole. If your cymbal swings freely and a lot, then your cymbal can/will develop bell hole cracks.
 
Thanks for all the answers, I am especially interested in the glancing blows technique that some of you mentioned. Now that I think about it I always hit my cymbals head on, and actually work to get them to not spin when I hit them.

I was watching a video of Josh Freese and saw that he hits his cymbals with a lot of stick, and comes almost straight down when striking. I hit on top of my cymbals but don't really come straight down, and use mostly the tip when striking. It would make sense that using more stick when striking would help the cymbal because there is more area to distribute the stress produced from the hit?

As for the top felts discussion, on crashes I agree they are really not needed. But I do use them to choke my ride and china, and prevent swinging.
 
Here's a great vid too see how cymbals vibrate when they're struck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Gxut0odyc&feature=related (The interesting part starts at 4:10.)

After seeing that vid, I'm definitely not surprised that cymbals break. Personally I've only cracked one medium cymbal before but that was within a year, so it was considered a production failure, so I could get a new one for free :D.

Alparrott mentioned that he has only broken his medium cymbals so far instead of his thin ones, but prehaps that's logical. It sounds pretty acceptable that thin cymbals have more flexibility so their breaking point is higher, right? I'm just guessing at this though.

@ TNA,
Glancing blow are blows that are struck in the direction away from the bell, so you're hitting it sideways basically. So spinning cymbals are a sign of hitting them like that. I wouldn't bother trying to stop them spinning, you won't succeed anyway :p
 
I think with cymbal breakage there is some randomness,less expensive b 8 alloy pies are worked alot rougher, more pounds per sq inch and faster hammering,I have played some stiff cast cymbals,but the budget b 8 's are always a lot stiffer feeling to me,even the thins,maybe that is why they crack more.I have heard that with cast cymbals each new batch reacts and works differently,so I think some just are more predisposed to cracking than others.I have seen drummers that hit lighter than I do and glance,but break cymbals,I have seen drummers that play harder than I do that say they have never broken one.I have only broken 1,it was a Z new beat top hat,I have played sabian, bos, zil saluda and ufip new and used.I have heard some people say the only cymbals they have broken are paiste's though.I have played one cymbal out,zil 20 thin crash I bought new in 1977,in 2004 it started loosing response,then high end,now it serves time as a pretty decent ride cymbal on my 12 year old neices kit. I think we are all different as drummers because of style ,approach and physicality,and I think some of us are just going to break more cymbals even if we have good technique.and set them up properly.,
 
eamesuser said:
I think with cymbal breakage there is some randomness,less expensive b 8 alloy pies are worked alot rougher, more pounds per sq inch and faster hammering,I have played some stiff cast cymbals,but the budget b 8 's are always a lot stiffer feeling to me,even the thins,maybe that is why they crack more.I have heard that with cast cymbals each new batch reacts and works differently,so I think some just are more predisposed to cracking than others.
Click to expand...

It's not the alloy. In my career, I have broken nothing but B20 pies, but I am not going to assume that it was because B20 is more brittle than B8 as an alloy (which it actually is, but that does not mean it is more prone to breakage). Besides, all cymbals are cast, nothing is stamped like popular urban myths would like us to believe. The B8's are just cast in sheets, instead of individually.

I personally believe it has more to do with the fact that cymbals are all heat tempered, and vary in gauge because oif all the hammering and lathing. That unevenness creates weak spots that fail with the more extreme (ab)use we put upon them.
 
I was recently reading a book that was discussing Samurai technique. That the western idea of "follow though" was not utilized. A Katana is capable of slicing down though a person's skull but if the swordsman thinks in terms of striking though the top of the skull and following though into the body of the victim, the sword can get stuck. So the Samurai think in terms of a target point and a quick return. This allows them to move on to the next thing they have to do with the sword.

I think there are some parallels in drumming. Most folks are familiar with pulling the stick back off the drum head to get good tone. I think the folks who don't break cymbals have found that target point that creates the desired crash and then they get the stick out of there instead of smashing though that point. Like letting the drumhead ring, they can get volume without as much effort because of letting the cymbal ring. And as some others have posted, anything beyond that isn't going to get more volume. More cymbal is needed.
 
That is a very good analogy Aeolian. One should always be moving towards the next target. As soon as the stick touches the pie, The deal is done, its all over, the cymbal does the rest on its own. Following through won't help!
I release my grip and I let the stick bounce as soon as I sense contact and Im on to the next strike wherever that may be.
 
MikeM said:
The other thing is aesthetics. I saw Dave Weckl a few weeks back playing with Mike Stern. There were a couple big rock endings where Dave was going for the big wash on his crashes and then - bang! into that last ending smackola. Only, that's not what it looked like. It looked like Dave was a little limp in the wrist and holding too much back when coming down on that final hit. He looked like he was worried about his delicate HHXs. Nothing "rock" about that. I remember thinking, "Come on Dave, you get 'em for free, give us a pile-driving rock ending!"
Click to expand...

I get it, but how did it sound? I bet it sounded just as good a a Mike Tyson smack would have.
 
Fox622003 said:
Well, Gavin Harrison said he breaks at least a couple of cymbals per tour when asked about this subject. And he doesn't really have bad technique...he plays quite hard live though, so maybe that's the reason. I've broken entry level cymbals when I started, but I used to only have one crash, not a single broken cymbal since I have two crashes and several splashes.
Click to expand...
His technique sounds (and looks) good, but it's pretty unforgiving. He gets pretty bad blisters, he breaks a lot of sticks, his heads need replacing after a couple of shows and he breaks cymbals. All in all, I think teachers like Freddy Gruber and Dom Famularo would have a lot to work on with him.

Strangelove said:
It's not the alloy. In my career, I have broken nothing but B20 pies, but I am not going to assume that it was because B20 is more brittle than B8 as an alloy (which it actually is, but that does not mean it is more prone to breakage). Besides, all cymbals are cast, nothing is stamped like popular urban myths would like us to believe. The B8's are just cast in sheets, instead of individually.
Click to expand...
How much experience have you had with entry-level B8 cymbals? eamesuser is not the only one who thinks they are stiffer than higher level cymbals, and not because of the alloy (link). That stiffness could be a factor in them breaking easier.

TNA said:
I was watching a video of Josh Freese and saw that he hits his cymbals with a lot of stick, and comes almost straight down when striking. I hit on top of my cymbals but don't really come straight down, and use mostly the tip when striking. It would make sense that using more stick when striking would help the cymbal because there is more area to distribute the stress produced from the hit?
Click to expand...
That's a very bad idea. Josh Freese obviously doesn't care how many cymbal he breaks.
 
muckypops said:
I get it, but how did it sound? I bet it sounded just as good a a Mike Tyson smack would have.
Click to expand...
Of course it did, it's DAVE! I just wish I'd've closed my eyes first - then I could've imagined pots blowing up on both sides of the stage, a few stick twirls, and shards of cymbal flying off in all directions!
 
Here's my broken cymbal inventory: 2 18" Z Custom Medium crashes, 2 19" A Custom Projection crashes, 2 20" A Medium crashes, 18" A Crash Ride, 18" A Medium crash, 20" Paragon Crash, 20" Oriental Classic China, 8" A splash, 10" A splash - I've never broken any hats or rides.
 
Fiery said:
How much experience have you had with entry-level B8 cymbals? eamesuser is not the only one who thinks they are stiffer than higher level cymbals, and not because of the alloy (link). That stiffness could be a factor in them breaking easier.
Click to expand...

Well, if it is not the alloy, then we both agree and that was my original point. I tried to search that thread you linked for discussion of B8 versus B20 and the only thing I saw was about inverting cymbals. Did I miss it? In everything I have read, and my understanding of metals, too, is that copper is softer than tin. I would assume then, that B8 is softer than B20 because of alloy makeup alone. I also think that's the point he's making in inverting cymbals. If automated hammering, shaping, or lathing techniques cause more brittleness, then that point should be brought up, but it should not be pinpointed on alloys as such.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top