Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

I'd like to get back to my "rewind time and replay it" hypothetical. I think it gets to the crux of freewill versus destiny.

If you believe there is freewill, then you believe that choices are being made that are not pre-destined. Or something like that. My philosopher friend may have debunked that with me many years ago, I'm a little fuzzy now. But assuming so... Therefore, if you could go back in time and play it over again, things would turn out differently.

If you believe there is no freewill, then the question becomes, why would anything turn out differently? And if we back time up and replay it and nothing changes, then is everything, in fact, predictable and inevitable?

It's fun and mind-bending for me to think about it. Because everything could feasibly be a reaction to something else that, if we had the intelligence and brainpower to compute it, could be predicted. If I can drop a marble on the floor and calculate how far and where it will bounce, including factors like gravity, wind, the density of the marble and the floor, and all that, then what about predicting where ten marbles will bounce if I drop them at the same time. Seems do-able, right? So what about dropping a million marbles? Eventually, we can extrapolate that out to all the events that take place in the universe.

So, why can't we predict that? I mean, we obviously don't have a computer big and powerful enough to do it. But if we did, could we? Is there anything that suggests that re-playing all those billions of random events in the universe would play out differently if we could rewind time and do it again?

Those who believe in freewill should say yes, it will change. But what if our freewill is just a series of reactions to stimuli, environment, etc? What if what we think are decisions we're making are really just the sum of all our reactions to our experiences from our environment, and nothing more? Then, maybe, nothing changes if we rewind time and do it all again. Because I still catch that cold that gives me the headache that makes me grumpy and you still let the coffee mug slip out of your hand that causes me to snap at you.

The one area I'm especially unclear on is the atomic level. I think super-scientists like Hawking say that there are unpredictable events that take place that we can't predict but have nothing to do with freewill. I think atoms split in chaotic ways that we can't understand. I think, anyway. So, there's some confusion there.

No answers here, just questions. But I find this stuff fascinating just to contemplate. The best part is that I have no idea. It's fun not knowing the answer.
 
Life can't exist without balance. Our sun has exactly as much energy trying to blow it to bits, as it does trying to collapse in on itself. It's perfectly balanced, the only way it can exist. If free will and pre-destiny are opposite ends of the spectrum...no matter which answer you pick, it would be out of balance. You can't have day without night, positive without negative, blah blah blah and so on and so forth. That's why I believe they both co-exist. I am of the belief that we have free will within pre-defined boundaries which include the laws of physics.
 
Life can't exist without balance. Our sun has exactly as much energy trying to blow it to bits, as it does trying to collapse in on itself. It's perfectly balanced, the only way it can exist. If free will and pre-destiny are opposite ends of the spectrum...no matter which answer you pick, it would be out of balance. You can't have day without night, positive without negative, blah blah blah and so on and so forth. That's why I believe they both co-exist. I am of the belief that we have free will within pre-defined boundaries which include the laws of physics.

I can accept this as long as the only pre-destined event for life is death. As we all know, even life itself isn't guaranteed. But that's it, no destiny, no guarantees, no invisible puppet master. Just wandering through a series of choices until our clock is punched.
 
You told me I should give vegetables to my dog, from the table, from the plate on top of It, you did! I remember it! This proves it, you see, aw gosh, don't you see? Truly, this proves that there can be free will in a world where pre-destiny...what was it again?

Yes, I remember. How'd it go. Is your dog now choosing to excrete (or is it compelled to at least try?).

I dunno, Grea. Dogs are pretty smart. Lumping all animals together isn't really something you can do. Some animals don't have even a central nervous system. They're not experiencing much more than plants are. Worms and ants aren't dogs.

True. All different types and levels of awareness. I have an intrusive ants nest near my front door and I've periodically engaged in population control. I swear those things behave as though they are scared shitless when the Sandal of Destiny comes crashing down. They pick up their dead and wounded (presumably waste not want not). They adjust their trail when I make one trail too hazardous. They keep trying to get in the house - and after I wipe the intruders out they stop for a while. Then they try again later.

Damn good instincts for such tiny things. But then again, ant colonies act as a super organism and each individual acts similarly to our cells (given that we too are made up of a multitude of smaller organisms). Ants nests are actually very smart things with intelligence and capacities far greater than that of any individual - just like human nests.

Let's consider destiny of a single human cell, which could be thought of as roughly analogous to an ant. One cell of the 100 trillion cells in our bodies. How does the destiny of the cell look from our godlike perspective? Not real good, I'd say.

We don't know or care if individual cells live or die. If billions wipe out (or grow where they shouldn't) then we'll start caring. Of course, it depends on the cells - whether they are inert matter like our nails and hair right or the stars of the show - the brain cells.

Is there a fractal aspect to life? Are humans like the prefrontal cortex of the Earth? Are animals the brain cells of the biosphere? Or maybe higher animals? Is the Earth like the frontal cortex of the Milky Way? If humans died out would that mean the biosphere would seriously lose a lot of IQ points?
 
The side of free will. I realize there has been lots of talk of cause and effect, but in a world of pre-destiny there would be no cause and effect, just events scheduled to happen in the order they were scheduled. Free will allows cause and effect to exist, other than a predetermined world where everything just runs as a script.

But couldn't cause and effect be an instrument of destiny?

If you believe there is freewill, then you believe that choices are being made that are not pre-destined. Or something like that.

... everything could feasibly be a reaction to something else that, if we had the intelligence and brainpower to compute it, could be predicted. If I can drop a marble on the floor and calculate how far and where it will bounce, including factors like gravity, wind, the density of the marble and the floor, and all that ... what about dropping a million marbles? ...

So, why can't we predict that? I mean, we obviously don't have a computer big and powerful enough to do it. But if we did, could we? Is there anything that suggests that re-playing all those billions of random events in the universe would play out differently if we could rewind time and do it again?

Those who believe in freewill should say yes, it will change. But what if our freewill is just a series of reactions to stimuli, environment, etc? What if what we think are decisions we're making are really just the sum of all our reactions to our experiences from our environment, and nothing more? Then, maybe, nothing changes if we rewind time and do it all again. Because I still catch that cold that gives me the headache that makes me grumpy and you still let the coffee mug slip out of your hand that causes me to snap at you.

Yes - nicely thought and said. The fact that everything has turned out the way it has suggests that if things could have been different, they would have been different. Each causality should have a predictable effect if you know all the parameters and relationships at the time ... if, as you say, you have the computing power.

How much power? It brings us back to the butterfly flapping its wings in South America. To work out the parameters around an event you would need to look at everything around the event:

- the spacial environment .. but for how far? All the way to South America's butterfly?
- the time period in that area ... how far back? To the Big Bang? Or before then?
- the history of the "players", let's say the event is a piano falling on a person from the first storey ... the players are the piano, the clumsy removalists and the victim ... that rabbit hole can go as deep as you like too
- all the other stuff we don't know.

Chaos theory and quantum strangeness seem to defy the notion of destiny, but chaos theory is really just a practical means of black boxing things that are too complex to understand ... at the moment. I suspect we will one day make sense of the factors (and formulas) behind quantum strangeness too.

It's possible that everything that happens is inevitable given the past, but the causal relationships are so complex and intertwined that for most practical means and purposes you can say we have free will.

I am of the belief that we have free will within pre-defined boundaries which include the laws of physics.

I can accept this as long as the only pre-destined event for life is death. As we all know, even life itself isn't guaranteed. But that's it, no destiny, no guarantees, no invisible puppet master. Just wandering through a series of choices until our clock is punched.

Yet each of those free will choices we make could be inevitable, given our histories. I'm not saying this for certain - hell, half the time I'm not even certain what I had for lunch - I'm just throwing the notion out there as a potential reality.
 
But couldn't cause and effect be an instrument of destiny?

Yet each of those free will choices we make could be inevitable, given our histories.

If cause and effect is a tool of destiny, wouldn't that mean that destiny is a multi-sided beast? Therefore the predetermination only exists if the correct choices are made? If this is the case, than pre-destiny really would be false because how can something that is destined to be not be a guarantee?

History has a tendency to repeat itself. If our choices were inevitable, why do we continue to make the same mistakes and not learn from the past? I would think that if history were a factor in making choices, we would make less mistakes as time goes on, and have a lot more figured out than we really do.
 
If cause and effect is a tool of destiny, wouldn't that mean that destiny is a multi-sided beast? Therefore the predetermination only exists if the correct choices are made? If this is the case, than pre-destiny really would be false because how can something that is destined to be not be a guarantee?

History has a tendency to repeat itself. If our choices were inevitable, why do we continue to make the same mistakes and not learn from the past? I would think that if history were a factor in making choices, we would make less mistakes as time goes on, and have a lot more figured out than we really do.

If destiny is real then it's a mega sided beast - everything everywhere happening inevitably due to what had come before, following complex multiple algorithms rather than a script.

Any spontaneous perverse desire by you to exert free will in defiance of destiny would be entirely predictable if you had access to all aspects of your history and the right algorithms :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/31/health/psychology/31subl.html
 
I've read this like a half dozen times now, and while I wont pretend to understand everything it has to say, isn't the computer system that uses the FIR filter the cause for the rooms digital correction? I stand by every effect has a cause.

Oh yeah, I don't understand it either. But it's an acausal system, so I thought that might be something recognizable for the forum that also fit the bill. It's "pregnant with the future," so to speak.

If cause and effect is a tool of destiny, wouldn't that mean that destiny is a multi-sided beast?

It would mean that destiny has consciousness, which would have some odd repercussions.

"Destiny" and "determinism" are two different things, though. Choice has to be a crucial element in destiny, because destinies can be fulfilled; it's a belief system. Determined systems don't have room for choice in the sense that we can make a choice that isn't determined by the system itself - it's a mechanism that exists outside belief. This is why compatibilist systems tend to suggest local or social determinism.
 
I can accept this as long as the only pre-destined event for life is death. As we all know, even life itself isn't guaranteed. But that's it, no destiny, no guarantees, no invisible puppet master. Just wandering through a series of choices until our clock is punched.

I was thinking on a more macro scale. It's a given that we all must die. As a race, I think our destiny is laid out. All the little things that make up day to day life, are up for grabs, that's our free will. (JMO) But from a macro view of our race, I think our destiny is sealed. The next step in our evolution, like Anon says, is that we merge with machines. I mean, it's already here. If we make it past this technological adolescence without wiping out our race, then I think it's inevitable that humans will populate other places in the solar system/galaxy besides Planet Earth.

Meanwhile, shall I have scrambled or over easy? I think I'll exercise my free will and just to throw a spanner in the works, I'll say pancakes. But I will end up doing scrambled. Free will in action. Men love scrambled. (obscure movie quote, any guesses? hint, Shelly Long said it)
 
I was thinking on a more macro scale. It's a given that we all must die. As a race, I think our destiny is laid out. All the little things that make up day to day life, are up for grabs, that's our free will. (JMO) But from a macro view of our race, I think our destiny is sealed. The next step in our evolution, like Anon says, is that we merge with machines. I mean, it's already here. If we make it past this technological adolescence without wiping out our race, then I think it's inevitable that humans will populate other places in the solar system/galaxy besides Planet Earth.

Meanwhile, shall I have scrambled or over easy? I think I'll exercise my free will and just to throw a spanner in the works, I'll say pancakes. But I will end up doing scrambled. Free will in action. Men love scrambled. (obscure movie quote, any guesses? hint, Shelly Long said it)
Was it called 'Night Shifts'?? dreadful movie, wasn't the fonz in it too?think I'm destined to never watch that again....unless of course, I choose too....
 
googled it (I chose to) Ron Howards director, Kevin Costner gets a credit, Michael Keaton in a starring role, set in a morgue....yeah, I remember how I laughed....
 
Was it called 'Night Shifts'?? dreadful movie, wasn't the fonz in it too?think I'm destined to never watch that again....unless of course, I choose too....

Yea, that's it, Night Shift. I loved that movie! Keaton wears me out with some of the great lines he had. And yea, the Fonz was in it, but not as the Fonz.
 
It would mean that destiny has consciousness, which would have some odd repercussions.

"Destiny" and "determinism" are two different things, though. Choice has to be a crucial element in destiny, because destinies can be fulfilled; it's a belief system. Determined systems don't have room for choice in the sense that we can make a choice that isn't determined by the system itself - it's a mechanism that exists outside belief. This is why compatibilist systems tend to suggest local or social determinism.

Thanks for the clarification, Nate. I have enjoyed your posts a lot but haven't replied because I couldn't keep up :)

Okay, so I spoke about determinism, not destiny. Even if everything is inevitable, being based on past events, since nobody knows everything life keeps surprising us. So neither destiny nor determinism really matters.

Actually, there is maybe one type of destiny that is real and significant. When enough people believe in particular destiny or outcome, they make it happen. The stock market is an example.


I was thinking on a more macro scale. It's a given that we all must die. As a race, I think our destiny is laid out. All the little things that make up day to day life, are up for grabs, that's our free will.

Another way of saying it ... we are slaves ... insignificant expendable cogs in the machinery of the Universe, driven to churn energy and information around for a short time before we are destroyed and replaced. We worry about having a good life - being a good person etc but that only matter on a personal level. The Universe doesn't care - just by living you are fulfilling your function, ie. churning stuff around lol

However, the Universe, in Its benevolence, throws us scraps of free will that are left over once we're done working through the endless stream of unconscious compulsions that drive us :)

Thought bubbles ...

(JMO) But from a macro view of our race, I think our destiny is sealed. The next step in our evolution, like Anon says, is that we merge with machines. I mean, it's already here. If we make it past this technological adolescence without wiping out our race, then I think it's inevitable that humans will populate other places in the solar system/galaxy besides Planet Earth.

Meanwhile, shall I have scrambled or over easy? I think I'll exercise my free will and just to throw a spanner in the works, I'll say pancakes. But I will end up doing scrambled. Free will in action. Men love scrambled. (obscure movie quote, any guesses? hint, Shelly Long said it)

That could be predicted too, Larry. Not that it matters. Just saying :)

Have you seen the Future Timeline website? When you think how much things have changed in just the last 20 years ... given that the pace of change is increasing, in another 20 years we won't know the joint. It seems like the good things in the world are getting better (social progress, technology, economic systems) and the bad things are getting worse (crowding, inequality, resources and natural die-back).
 
I was not going to answer this post because my answer is contrary to the question. But, in my opinion, the question infers only one viewpoint. So I decided that all questions deserve at least two viewpoints. The inferred view-point is that there is "pre-destiny."
It is like asking a cat owner, “How often do you kick your cat?” The question does not give the person a chance to say, “I never kick my cat.”

There is no such thing as pre-destiny. We all make our own future by our actions and the actions that others do to us.

I realize my opinion may be offensive to those that believe strongly in "pre-destiny." I do apologize for that, and am sorry that it offends you. To me this is a question that is close to a religious point of view. I know religion, politics and sex are topics that should not be discussed in this forum, but since this post has gone to the length that it has, I assume that it is ok to discuss and post my opinion on the topic.
 
Thanks for the clarification, Nate. I have enjoyed your posts a lot but haven't replied because I couldn't keep up :)

I've been reading your posts with interest, so I'm glad you did.

Okay, so I spoke about determinism, not destiny. Even if everything is inevitable, being based on past events, since nobody knows everything life keeps surprising us. So neither destiny nor determinism really matters.

Honestly I think I agree with you. I mean, lets suppose things are determined - you're still on the hook, in some way, for living ethically, right? It's a variation on the wager: either we're free to act and we should choose ethical action; or, we're not "free" to act, but we should still act ethically, just in case. And if destined, I suppose we should act according to what we think our destiny should be. Life does keep surprising us; if we knew that we are obligated to the good, and we knew the character of that obligation, we wouldn't ever know that we should act that way. Put differently: if we lived in a world where we couldn't do anything but live in a certain way (determined), how could we ever say we "should" live in a certain way? How is it possible to articulate an ethics? I tend to think Aristotelian ethics provides a pretty capable answer, but there are certainly others.

Actually, there is maybe one type of destiny that is real and significant. When enough people believe in particular destiny or outcome, they make it happen. The stock market is an example.

It's interesting reading this point in the light of the controversy over high-frequency trading, along with your earlier point about the algorithmic/cyclic nature of human action. We've modeled our habits and focused them, allowed them to happen as if we were thinking outside of our bodies (or asleep).
 
There is no such thing as pre-destiny. We all make our own future by our actions and the actions that others do to us.

I agree with you.... but, what if what we think/decide about our future and the others we meet and cross in our lives is actually written out in our destiny somewhere, you might think it's all your doing and you're deciding your own destiny and your faith through your life, while in fact you're just following your pre-destiny and you're not aware of it.

I was pre-destined to write that comment, even if I think I wanted to respond to your comments, it was written out there somewhere :)
 
Have you seen the Future Timeline website? When you think how much things have changed in just the last 20 years ... given that the pace of change is increasing, in another 20 years we won't know the joint. It seems like the good things in the world are getting better (social progress, technology, economic systems) and the bad things are getting worse (crowding, inequality, resources and natural die-back).

Not yet, but I'll check it out. Sounds interesting.

There is no such thing as pre-destiny. We all make our own future by our actions and the actions that others do to us.

I realize my opinion may be offensive to those that believe strongly in "pre-destiny." I do apologize for that, and am sorry that it offends you. To me this is a question that is close to a religious point of view. I know religion, politics and sex are topics that should not be discussed in this forum, but since this post has gone to the length that it has, I assume that it is ok to discuss and post my opinion on the topic.

What I don't understand is why people get offended when someone has a different POV. I am in no way offended that you don't believe in pre-destiny, just as hopefully, you are not offended that I do. I think it's re-diculous to get offended over differing opinions, especially when the subject is so personal and full of unknowns. I don't know the facts, no one does, but I am inclined a certain way and some differ. Cool! Nothing wrong there.

As far as I can tell, the true meaning of life...is to reproduce. That's it. Simple. The rest is just fun, or torture, depending on your POV. But basically, the person with the most descendants wins.
 
I agree with you.... but, what if what we think/decide about our future and the others we meet and cross in our lives is actually written out in our destiny somewhere, you might think it's all your doing and you're deciding your own destiny and your faith through your life, while in fact you're just following your pre-destiny and you're not aware of it.

I was pre-destined to write that comment, even if I think I wanted to respond to your comments, it was written out there somewhere :)

Some make the commitment to believe strongly and they end up going to their particular services once a week, or have other spiritual outlets.

Some come to the conclusion that can only be proven in a personal way, and can not be proven to others because the logic of proving a negative is impossible.

And still others do not make a commitment either way and sit on the fence and never commit.

But the weakest excuse for believing is that it will not hurt anything if they decide to believe. And so they believe in pre-destiny because it is easier than developing and puzzling out a personal proof of its non-existance. It only shows a semi-self-aware individual.
 
Not yet, but I'll check it out. Sounds interesting.



What I don't understand is why people get offended when someone has a different POV. I am in no way offended that you don't believe in pre-destiny, just as hopefully, you are not offended that I do. I think it's re-diculous to get offended over differing opinions, especially when the subject is so personal and full of unknowns. I don't know the facts, no one does, but I am inclined a certain way and some differ. Cool! Nothing wrong there.

As far as I can tell, the true meaning of life...is to reproduce. That's it. Simple. The rest is just fun, or torture, depending on your POV. But basically, the person with the most descendants wins.

Well, I like coming here, and do not want to get kicked out. Sometimes the human condition is a puzzle to me. So I take caution.
 
"Destiny" and "determinism" are two different things, though. Choice has to be a crucial element in destiny, because destinies can be fulfilled; it's a belief system. Determined systems don't have room for choice in the sense that we can make a choice that isn't determined by the system itself - it's a mechanism that exists outside belief. This is why compatibilist systems tend to suggest local or social determinism.

I'm sorry but your ideas of destiny and determinism are skewed. The definition of destiny is a predetermined course of events considered as something beyond human power or control. By definition alone we humans have no say in our destiny, therefore our ability to make choices is mute. Something cannot be destined for you and still allow breathing room for choices.

Determinism states that for everything that happens, there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. For example, I choose to punch someone in the face. There is a choice. Determinism dictates that since my fist contacted their face, they will feel the force of my fist on their face. This is what determinism states. Its A+B=C. But A and B have the option to be a choice. And in events of no choice, such as a car wreck, determinism only dictates twisted metal, not the fate of all those involved. Cars might be totaled, maybe not. People may die, maybe not. It is cause and effect, with philosophical ideas behind it.
 
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