Can there be free will in a world where pre-destiny exists?

Yes, I realize that a "no" answer doesn't automatically mean that pre-destiny is subscribed to. I am also curious if the majority subscribes to pre-destiny or free will. So I guess I am also looking to see where people stand on the issue, as well as if it is felt that they are, or are not, mutually exclusive.

Like Milt Hathaway, I believe in free will, within a certain framework of universal rules or laws, which we don't understand and may never understand.

As far as your dream - anecdotal evidence about something you remember will never convince me of pre-destiny. Memory is a very slippery thing, and it has been proven that we can create memories or remember things incorrectly even when we think we remember them exactly. There are entire fields of study about memory, and what I've taken from it is that you just can't trust it in many cases. Combine that with the human mind's incredible ability to construct connections and meaning where none necessarily exist, and you'll perhaps understand why I'm a skeptic.

I don't rule anything out, really, but I believe what I believe until I see irrefutable evidence that changes my mind.
 
I guess my question is WHY must there be an explanation for everything?

Because I want to know dammit! It could be a male thing too. I have a pressing need to understand HOW things work, it's just my nature. I question a lot because I don't understand a lot. So this is me trying to understand this subject. How can we see all that is in front of us and NOT ask why and how? I am not built like that, although I would probably be happier if I didn't care.
 
Because I want to know dammit! It could be a male thing too. I have a pressing need to understand HOW things work, it's just my nature. I question a lot because I don't understand a lot. So this is me trying to understand this subject. How can we see all that is in front of us and NOT ask why and how? I am not built like that, although I would probably be happier if I didn't care.

You can care, and still not get an answer! You have to be able to accept that, too. At, least, I have to be able to accept that, because I think there are simply things beyond our understanding.

Newton's laws got us to the moon, but some today say they are wrong. Just because a construct works doesn't mean it's right.
 
As far as your dream - anecdotal evidence about something you remember will never convince me of pre-destiny. Memory is a very slippery thing, and it has been proven that we can create memories or remember things incorrectly even when we think we remember them exactly.

And I am in agreement with you, basically. If 19 people witness an event, you will have 19 different stories about what happened. So peoples perceptions are unique. It's just that this dream was so vivid, and I experienced it many, many times, so it was burned into my brain.
When I experienced the dream in real life, my mind was blown.
Hearing my story and experiencing my story, very different. So it's hard for me to remain unbiased, even though I know how fallible memory and perception are. I really like your responses. I realize that I won't get a definitive answer here, because as of 2013, I feel it is beyond our capabilities to actually know the mechanics of the universe. But I did want to discuss it and gain a larger perspective from the minds here.
 
I realize that I won't get a definitive answer here, because as of 2013, I feel it is beyond our capabilities to actually know the mechanics of the universe. But I did want to discuss it and gain a larger perspective from the minds here.

Yeah, it is certainly fun and worthwhile to discuss, despite not getting a definitive answer.
 
So I guess I am also looking to see where people stand on the issue, as well as if it is felt that they are, or are not, mutually exclusive.

I don't believe in any deterministic philosophies. We are all free to live life however we choose. We live with the mistakes we make, and we accept the consequences of our actions, both good and bad. The thought that my achievements and my burdens were assigned to me by some metaphysical force is sickening to say the least. I'm with MaryO, living a predetermined life would simply be hell.

Larry, tend to side with IDD. Granted we didn't experience what you experienced, but memory is slippery, and so is dream recollection.

Btw, having a burning curiosity to know how things work is a wonderful thing. However, don't confuse wanting an answer with wanting to uncover the truth. Its wicked fun to discuss, but yea.
 
It could be both. For a long time I believed we all had a finite set of possible paths and destinies predetermined by *insert omnipresent being of you choice*. Though an individual's choices and freewill, he/she would follow one of these paths to one of his/her possible destinies. EDIT: By "destiny", I mean the "place" in your life, the state of you person, that you settle into as life progresses... call it your socio-economic status, actualization, nirvana, or whatever. Obviously death is the last thing we will all experience, but that fact we are all going to die has nothing to do with the choices we make, let alone freewill, its just life.

Further thought on the "paths" we take...Perhaps our fate is pre-destined, but our free agency decides which path we take to get there. Making a series of bad choices followed by good ones can theoretically get you to the same point, but making all the "correct" choices (whatever those might be) can get you to the same point quicker - but you may not have learned as much along the way.
 
Because I want to know dammit! It could be a male thing too. I have a pressing need to understand HOW things work, it's just my nature. I question a lot because I don't understand a lot. So this is me trying to understand this subject. How can we see all that is in front of us and NOT ask why and how? I am not built like that, although I would probably be happier if I didn't care.

I think we are definitely coming at this from two different angles. It's not that I don't care it's just that I think when we, as humans, can't find the answer we find the NEED to label it. Sure, look for answers but maybe we shouldn't label it until we actually FIND the answer. It can tend to be misleading and also lead us to STOP looking for those answers since we've already labeled it, why look further? I think it's okay (and necessary) to say "I don't know" sometimes.
 
I still believe we are destined. And the free will I think I have is probably an illusion. But it's a pretty vivid illusion. Like today, If I so chose, I could murder someone, say Phil for instance lol. Or not. That's a big choice with a lot of fallout. But no matter what choice I end up making, it was meant to be that way, because it happened. I subscribe to the notion that if it actually occurs...if it actually takes place and comes to pass....it was meant to be. Because it happened. So while I retain a certain amount of free will, I have no control over the larger picture.

Topics like this really stretch the wrinkles out of my brain.
 
I still believe we are destined. And the free will I think I have is probably an illusion. But it's a pretty vivid illusion. Like today, If I so chose, I could murder someone, say Phil for instance lol. Or not. That's a big choice with a lot of fallout. But no matter what choice I end up making, it was meant to be that way, because it happened.

That's funny, because when I was younger a gypsy palm reader told me that I would be murdered in my 30s by a man who went by LarryAce, but whom I would refer to as Jerkstore. I thought it was hogwash at the time, but now, the similarities of the prediction to real life are astounding. I guess you're predestined to do it, free will tossed aside...
 
As a Christian, I believe some things are destined to happen. Certain events I believe will happen regardless of what we do. On the other side, we have a choice to do right or wrong, to be a success or failure. If you believe there is no free will, it means killers cannot refrain from murder. That alone is a bad thought.
 
That's funny, because when I was younger a gypsy palm reader told me that I would be murdered in my 30s by a man who went by LarryAce, but whom I would refer to as Jerkstore. I thought it was hogwash at the time, but now, the similarities of the prediction to real life are astounding. I guess you're predestined to do it, free will tossed aside...

But I really don't want to kill you Phil...although the thought of it makes for a nice daydream. But I would never! Your poor kids and wife! And all those people who depend on your healing touch. Plus this place would be the poorer for it. Steve would have to arrest me. And Mary would never speak to me again. So the gypsy palm reader was a charlatan. You're life is safe from me Phil. And I like the name jerkstore. It's cool. Maybe I can get Uncle Larry changed to jerkstore. I'd be down with that.
 
As a Christian, I believe some things are destined to happen. Certain events I believe will happen regardless of what we do. On the other side, we have a choice to do right or wrong, to be a success or failure. If you believe there is no free will, it means killers cannot refrain from murder. That alone is a bad thought.

God, in His very nature exists outside of time. He created day and night (which is interpretted as the passing of time). Do you believe He created the world and just let it run amok, or did He create ALL of existence from the beginning of the universe as we know it until the end? "He knows the plans that He has for you" hints at a sense of predestination, or whatever is in store for you is already set in motion, without your intervention. Or, rather, your intervention was planned for in advance. So, all of those right and wrong choices one can make, they are already accounted for. We are simply marching in this parade, seeing merely what we can see from our perspective, and God is watching the entire thing from his blimp.

Sweet dreams tonight. :D

Note: this is meant to be a philosophical take on the Christian God, not a discussio, persay, of religion itself.
 
The voices in my head make all my decisions for me...not sure if thats free will or pre destiny...one of the voices is louder....sometimes...
 
My doctor doesn't think so. He keeps telling me to lose weight. I told him if I knew I was going to live this long I would have taken better care of my self. This concept borders on science and religion so tread very carefully. But why would I try to make decisions if I thought it didn't matter
 
the concept of "absolute free will" and "absolute pre-destiny" are mutually exclusive.

causal inversion(effect before the cause) is not a macro-world confirmed state...

..."free will" independant of cause of the chemical states invoking it is also not a confirmed macro world state.

...The problem lay within the question...as is the case with most "either/or" questions.

specifically, within the definitions of "free will" and "pre-destined".
 
Perhaps what is destined is not our outcome in life (minus death), but our ability to choose freely. We are destined to choose our own path in life, and this is overwritten only by our will to accept others input and choose their ideas over our own. But that is still a choice. No one can make you do anything you don't want to do, no matter how persuasive or forceful they may be.
 
Larry, this is treading in dangerous water. Look: if our lives are pre-destined, then the obvious question is: pre-destined by whom?

For what it's worth, I don't buy it. The pre-destined part, I mean.

Okay, I don't buy the "by whom" part either.

I agree with this also,nor do I believe that everyone on the planet is simply a meat puppet,being controlled by a supernatural force.

Steve B
 
And Mary would never speak to me again.

And I like the name jerkstore. It's cool. Maybe I can get Uncle Larry changed to jerkstore. I'd be down with that.


Some would say me not talking to them anymore would be a blessing.


As for the name change...Uncle Jerkstore just doesn't have the same ring to it.
 
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