Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

I agree 100%.

I see thresholds of imperfection and it depends on the qualities of the music. For instance, Keith Moon wasn't precise but he brought so much energy and creativity to the mix it didn't matter. Same with Mitch Mitchell. Some of Ringo's tracks wouldn't pass muster today but there were close enough to work with the music and his drum parts and feel were great. ...

Sort of ironic Keith Moon of all drummers was one of the 1st major drummers to use a click on stage so he could follow the sequencers on "Baba O Reiley" and "Won't Get Fooled Again."

But you also make the point I was attempting to make, in that yeah, in the past drummers didn't need clicks because they had good time, but while they may have had good time, how many would have click perfect time? Not many I'd imagine. If you put a lot of those "good time" drum tracks up on a computer grid, they wouldn't line up perfectly. But back then, no one cared as long as it feels good.

Machine oriented music is so pervasive in our modern society, that people just expect a level of unhuman perfection that wasn't expected in years past. If we took today's expectations and put them into the 60's, I bet many of our non-click having hero's would have been using clicks more often.

There is nothing cheating about clicks like. It's not because drummers today are terrible time keepers compared to drummers 30-40 years ago, but because people expect people to sound more like machines today than they used to. Which we can think is sad and wrong all we want, but it's obviously a part of many bands today.
 
I was at that show!!!

It was my first Queensryche show of many. It was indeed late 1991 or very early 1992.

And yes, the whole Operationmind crime segment was done to a click to line up with the video projections. Scott had car review mirrors on his drum kit so he could watch the video to make sure every thing stayed in sync.

Great band. Great show. We have another click/metronome thread here: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57917 and Bermuda's breaking down how they use the click with the "Al" show.
 
I'm late to this thread too but my take is very simple. If there's a reason to use a click to do something I can't do, then I'll use one. If I can do without, then that's certainly my option of choice. I don't believe that clicks have any value live unless the act is interfacing with a benign media such as video, sequencer, etc. The push & pull of live music is the very life blood of performance to me. Essentially, if you need a click to play live, other than the above mentioned exceptions, get off the stage!!

I'm recording next week. Basic local demo studio so lacks hi tech toys (tempo pitch compensation, etc). I'm doing one track that has a number of big spaces and another that uses a very organic vocal decent as the return. I'll be blind counting those with stick cues that start & stop mid passage so as not to interfere with cymbal sustain. Making life difficult for myself? Oh yes, but I'd rather that than introduce a machine like element to a track vibe.
 
Sort of ironic Keith Moon of all drummers was one of the 1st major drummers to use a click on stage so he could follow the sequencers on "Baba O Riley" and "Won't Get Fooled Again."

Interesting DED. Didn't know that and wouldn't have imagined it, but it makes sense now that you mention it.

If you put a lot of those "good time" drum tracks up on a computer grid, they wouldn't line up perfectly. But back then, no one cared as long as it feels good.

Machine oriented music is so pervasive in our modern society, that people just expect a level of unhuman perfection that wasn't expected in years past.

I remember having this feeling in the 80s, although my biggest issue was sound. Nearly all the popular songs had a massive snare sound - Simmons or compressed and cranked up. It was the more-is-always-better mentality of "Gee, drummers like Bonzo with the big snare thwack sound great so if we make our snare sound HUGE then it will be better still!".

But I was a child of the 70s and thought Bonzo and the other hard rock guys got the big snare sound about right - plus it had this rich organic sound. I didn't need backbeats to be bigger, and certainly not with the tradeoff of richness and flexibility.

So when playing acoustic drums in 80s rock I had to play super clean (no grace notes or ruffs) and hit super hard to sound contemporary. The BIG sound - easy on an e-drum or heavily mic'd but I found it hard work on my a-kit.

The need for big sounds and the increased expectations of tightness meant that I'd lost a lot of my favourite musical toys - improv and dynamics. That was one of the reasons why I quit drumming in 1987/8. The enjoyment no longer outweighed the hassles of setup, lugging, soreness and blisters.

If I remember rightly TR707s were coming in big-time in disco music (discounting Kraftwerk etc). Drum machines have continued to evolve to the point where you can have super-impressive programmable e-drums on a PC - very powerful, accessible and cheap. This has given drummers another tough benchmark to live up to as people's ears are conditioned more to machine-like consistency.

I like lots of music with electronic drums and sequencers but my favourite songs are still human and organic. But then again, I'm apparently a baby boomer so I would say that :)

Sorry, long post. Just another senile old cow staggering aimlessly down memory lane :)
 
Also, doesn't this make sound check a lot more difficult? And doesn't it introduce the great possibility for disaster if the whole thing stops working for some reason? In other words is it worth it? I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?

Major acts use it because they've got the crews and money to make such a setup work. I've seen a bar band effectively use this stuff, It all comes down to practice and knowing your equipment for them. Equipment always has the possibility of failing.

Click tracks aren't cheating. A lot of people can't play to a click correctly anyway. I know I couldn't use a click effectively live.
 
Orchestras from the days of yore until present time, have conductors. Are they cheating?? They also use sheet music.
 
"When someone uses a click live, a metronome in-ear or sequencers with samples, who you gonna call? Time Busters! de-doo-deeee!"
 
"When someone uses a click live, a metronome in-ear or sequencers with samples, who you gonna call? Time Busters! de-doo-deeee!"

Bravo, you just pinpointed the complete rediculussnus of being in perfect time.

I still hold my position that you need them if your group is adding samples into a song. If not, why use them?
 
Stasz, glad you jumped in. Great post.
QUOTE]

Thanks, I can't seem to find my post? i forgot that it existed and i was really confused, as of now your response is the only proof that it ever existed.

Anyway, I really think there are some great things being said about this subject, and especially how the idea of "cheating" is just bogus. And pollyanna hit the nail on the head with the milli vanilli example, that of course there's a question of ethics when you take it that far, seeing as they weren't even performing the music, even if it still sounded good to the audience. however I still think we should wholeheartedly embrace new technology that allows us to take recorded & live music to a place where it's never been before. Take this youtube video of joe tomino with the dub trio:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9iRwW9GIdA

After the double bass assault in the beginning, listen to tomino's use of electronic delay on his backbeat to create the dub sound. Not only is this use of technology new and creative, it's not easy. He's juggling keeping a steady groove AND working the electronic pedals......so technology is not always just to make things as easy as possible
 
After playing gigs with a click for ten or twelve years, I can tell you all ranting about feel and humanity and musicality are wrong. If you aren't playing good time, what good is your little push and pull in the music? How are you going to bring tension and release without having the center of your beat on the money?

When I joined this band, one of the other drummers told me that sure, you think you have good time, but wait until you've learned to play a few sets of music to a sequence, you'll find out just how dirty your time sense was. He was right, my playing literally leaped forward in huge steps. So you want to learn to sound tight? Learn to play your creativity and feel and blah blah around excellent time. There's a reason they use a click in the studio: it sounds better.
 
As soon as the people who come to watch and listen and especially the dancers become upset with my sense of time I'll have to look into how I can better it. For now I think I'll rely on my sense of "feel" and work off the energy levels of my fellow mates. I'm not perfect at anything I do if the gigs were perfect why keep going to them, the challenge to play well would be met. Then again I had a dream a while back that I played electronic drums with a female fronting the band and Hermans Hermitts were the best band EVER!!
Wait a minute that was the night mare I had dropping off of morphine after the accident last year. Thats a scary thought..........................................................electronic drums!!
Doc
 
Conductors sometimes use metronomes depending on context. The rôle of the conductor is much more than just dictating time and sometimes it's necessary for them to use a metronome in commercial settings (e.g. tracking strings for a band) or especially for theatre work where there are sequencers used or visuals.
 
When I joined this band, one of the other drummers told me that sure, you think you have good time, but wait until you've learned to play a few sets of music to a sequence, you'll find out just how dirty your time sense was. He was right, my playing literally leaped forward in huge steps. So you want to learn to sound tight? Learn to play your creativity and feel and blah blah around excellent time. There's a reason they use a click in the studio: it sounds better.

I know that feeling. I was in a band where the guitarist was heavily influenced by The Edge. There was a particular song that was all 16ths with digital delay. If the tempo pushed or pulled the thing would go out of synch.

I used to dread that song. In hindsight, I'm amazed that most times we got through it ok. Still, I can hear myself not quite letting loose and there are moments where I'd be sneaking on top of the beat and then had to pull back: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYIR9RwAF_Q

Earlier this year my band recorded a few songs. On a whim, I asked for a click. So we started the song and within two bars - no exaggeration - everyone in the band had pulled away from the click and me.

In hindsight I should have asked for a few extra bpms to get to the tempo as they were hearing it but I figured we should be able to do it. Tried again and straight away another train wreck. So we recorded the tune without click.

I prefer music done in a more organic way but I have respect bordering on awe for people who can play naturally and effectively with a click.
 
Just a couple of ideas.

1. Yes its fair.
2. Dont ask a drummer to play to a click. If the whole band isnt on it.
3. Practice with a click. Yes some of the great music of all time was down naked. But it will only inprove your time. Just another tool. That you may need to add to your resume.
4. Dont ask a drummer to play to a click. If the whole band isnt on it.. Yes I repeated this. There will be war going on in your headphones. And nothing can be done about it.
 
Metronomes were invented in 1812 so any drummer who played without one in the history of the drumset CHOSE not too.

I think playing live with a click is something every drummer should be able to do. Practice with a click is ESSENTIAL.

Very well put.

The problems of not playing to a click when you should, are much, much greater than the problems of playing to a click when you should not. This whole conversation has been turned on its head.
 
My band plays classic rock covers (mostly) and I play live, with a click in my ear. It's a tool I want to have available and the band can have confidence that our time is not subject to mood, interpretation, crazy guitarists, bad memory, etc.

The good news is: I can hear what the time should be.
The bad news (sometimes) is: I can hear what the time should be.
 
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