Is it fair to play live with a metronome?

Yes, there are more bands using pre-recorded bits, loops, sequences, or just additional layers, and thus you do need a click to lock in. In the bands I've done it, only I have the actually click, and everyone follows me. Which is cool, because then I'm in charge!! hehe..

This sounds like a real undertaking to me. Wouldn't there need to be someone offstage running the sequences? Or if, say, the keyboard player could trigger these sequences, loops or whatever, wouldn't they be heard over the monitors like everything else, meaning that no click would be needed since everyone on stage could hear them? I mean, it's not only drummers who need to have good time.

Also, doesn't this make sound check a lot more difficult? And doesn't it introduce the great possibility for disaster if the whole thing stops working for some reason? In other words is it worth it? I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?

Sorry, I'm still not getting it, this need for a click track on live gigs. In the studio yeah, sure, that's a given, but that's not what this thread is about.

I know I'm coming across as an old fart, but the idea of "as long as I have a click track I'll be alright" just seems wrong to me.
 
I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?
Sorry, I'm still not getting it, this need for a click track on live gigs. In the studio yeah, sure, that's a given, but that's not what this thread is about.

One of the best examples of the basic bar band using the click with sequenced music that I've seen, was the Queen cover band that used to do the local circuit here in Melb. A song like Bohemian Rhapsody relied heavily on sequenced backing tracks, but they didn't kick in from the very start of the song. The sequenced parts are programmed to come in, in bar 44 for example. In this case the click was vital for the band to stay in time, so that they were right on cue when the sequenced section started. I've also seen bands with no keyboards using sequenced parts to cover the lack of the instrument. Again, the parts are not constant in the song, they drop in and out. In order for it not to be a mish mash of music coming and going all over the place, the click is employed to keep the band in time.

Just a couple of examples obviously, but I hope it helps answer your question.
 
I play live with an MPC, the samples don't come in quite often until the chorus. So I need to stay in time until the Chorus hits, hence the click.

Also, it's just an MPC - straight into a DI and only using one power point. Not technically amazing, and not a sound guys nightmare. The whole band is Vox, Double Bass, 2x Cello, Piano, Drums, MPC.... Now THAT is a sound guys nightmare!! Although we don't play that many "pub" shows, they are mainly theatre shows with decent soundchecks.

It is strange though, sometimes the songs feel really slow, and other times they feel fast! It's strange how the mind works....
 
woah. ignore the band. hmmmmm.....not sure thats a good idea...
Depends on the type of music. I'm fairly sure George Kollias of Nile for example has only his kick drum and snare in his monitors live (maybe some other parts of the kit too), no other instruments or vocals. The band sounds great live, very tight and very energetic.
 
This sounds like a real undertaking to me. Wouldn't there need to be someone offstage running the sequences? Or if, say, the keyboard player could trigger these sequences, loops or whatever, wouldn't they be heard over the monitors like everything else, meaning that no click would be needed since everyone on stage could hear them? I mean, it's not only drummers who need to have good time.
When I've done, I controlled the start and stop. So no need for anyone offstage.
The loops and whatever do go through the monitors, but as a drummer, it's still important to have the clock to lock in with the loops, especially for where are spaces or rests between notes.

The band has to follow me. Which they should anyway.

As for being an under taking, only to create the backing tracks. But then I enjoy being more than JUST the drummer in the band.
I have my own home recording studio, so it's not a big deal to me to make the tracks.

Also, doesn't this make sound check a lot more difficult?
No, not anymore than having one more person in the band. For a soundman, it's no different than having a keyboard player live on stage.

And doesn't it introduce the great possibility for disaster if the whole thing stops working for some reason?
True. But if the band works with this kind of stuff, they should be good enough to play without it too if it all goes down. The backing tracks should add to the band, not provide the major chunk of the music.


In other words is it worth it? I can see major acts using this stuff, but your basic bar band?
I never said anything about being a basic bar band.
I certainly wouldn't use backing tracks on a blues gig at the local pub.


I know I'm coming across as an old fart, but the idea of "as long as I have a click track I'll be alright" just seems wrong to me.[

You're confusing the concepts here. I don't think anyone has said such a statement.

I'm merely pointing out why someone might use one, not that they are a requirement or needed.
 
The loops and whatever do go through the monitors, but as a drummer, it's still important to have the clock to lock in with the loops, especially for where are spaces or rests between notes.

But there are spaces or rests between notes anyway, no? Still, I guess I see what you mean.

Still, time is time. But here I am talking about stuff I know nothing about.

I don't mind saying that things have changed quite a bit since I was up in the game. Back in the "old days" you either had good time or you didn't. Well, it's just the way it goes, isn't it.

I guess there were plenty of drummers who hated the idea of plastic heads!
 
But there are spaces or rests between notes anyway, no? Still, I guess I see what you mean.

Still, time is time. But here I am talking about stuff I know nothing about.

I don't mind saying that things have changed quite a bit since I was up in the game. Back in the "old days" you either had good time or you didn't. Well, it's just the way it goes, isn't it.

I guess there were plenty of drummers who hated the idea of plastic heads!

Well, I agree it's a bit sad how much emphasis is put on perfection these days.

I grew up listening to classic rock on the radio, and listening to The Who, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, et all, and there isn't much room for music like that these days. Nearly every song on the radio these days is edited to death to make it sound machine perfect.
 
When playing music, everything is fair. Was it fair for David Gilmore to use a delay pedal in Pink Floyd or rap artists to use autotune or a drummer to use a double pedal. It's all fair game. You don't have to follow any certain guidelines. Just do your own thing and be creative. Use backing tracks and drum machines, Clicks and affects, Quanitise all your tracks and do steroids if your blast beats aren't up to speed.
 
Is it fair to play live while using a metronome.......before you answer a simple, "yes"...I challenge you to think about the older generations, not having access to these tools.

Is it fair to be typing that? Asking people around the world? Why don't you just ask your friends? It's not fair to ask us because older generations couldn't do it.

Too bad for them. Good for us.
 
Is it fair to be typing that? Asking people around the world? Why don't you just ask your friends? It's not fair to ask us because older generations couldn't do it.

Too bad for them. Good for us.

I don't know if I would have worded it like that, but it is true that previous generations didn't have access to the technology we have today, but your basic metronome has been around for a very long time and I'm sure drummers used them. Maybe more during rehearsal than live situations, but you can bet they were used. Personally, I try to have a click track in my headphones while rehearsing with my band. It helps me stay in the pocket, it is sometimes distracting.

As far as live performances go, I only use a click track if there are sequenced parts or a backing tracks. Other than that, I enjoy the natural feel of the slight ebb and flow of the tempo. In the end, it's whatever works for you.
 
I don't know if I would have worded it like that, but it is true that previous generations didn't have access to the technology we have today, but your basic metronome has been around for a very long time and I'm sure drummers used them. Maybe more during rehearsal than live situations, but you can bet they were used. Personally, I try to have a click track in my headphones while rehearsing with my band. It helps me stay in the pocket, it is sometimes distracting.

As far as live performances go, I only use a click track if there are sequenced parts or a backing tracks. Other than that, I enjoy the natural feel of the slight ebb and flow of the tempo. In the end, it's whatever works for you.

We did not use them in the 60s and 70s to the extent other musicians used them to practice with (their little mechanical drummer). Not to say it wasn't a good idea to improve your timing, it just did not seem to be the big priority that it is now. Setting tempo was why we as drummers were even in existence to begin with. I think it began to become important to strictly follow the click in the 1980s, when samples and loops started becoming an integral part of songs, particularly live. LOL - so many vocalists that were lip syncing would shoot a drummer if they wandered off beat from their pre-recorded vocals in a live situation. Most audience members or recorded music listeners aren't holding a group to a click, and wouldn't even be able to spot deviations, which is why it wasn't important "back in the day". I personally think it pretty unimportant and agree with your ebb and flow comment, in all musical situations outside of songs with sequenced, pre-recorded parts or in the recording studio.
 
Whatever happen too 2 hands,2 feet, 2 sticks that's what makes a drummer.......nothing else.

Bonzolead
 
Whatever happen too 2 hands,2 feet, 2 sticks that's what makes a drummer.......nothing else.

Bonzolead

What happened to being open-minded about new technology and thinking that It's not always bad? I even saw Vinnie Colaiuta use a Roland pad playing with Jeff Beck. Loops, drum-machines and live metronomes will become more and more part of the music-industry, so dismissing it will not work in the long run. It can also enhance the drumming itself working as layers etc, making it even more interesting.
 
Whatever happen too 2 hands,2 feet, 2 sticks that's what makes a drummer.......nothing else.

Bonzolead

Well, in the late 1890's they were asking why you needed two feet, when the traditional way to play drums was have one guy play the snare drum, one guy play the bass drum, and a 3rd guy to play the cymbals.

That's what made a drummer!!

Then someone invented the bass drum pedal (Which Ludwig would soon make a practical version of).
 
"Fair"? What would be "unfair" about it? It's actually really hard to do if you're the only one with the click in your monitor, because the other musicians tend to deviate from the steady pulse, and it's solely your job to reel them back in. Try doing THAT and play with feel.

>>>So, to me, it's unfair for the drummer to have a click if the other musicians don't listen to the drummer or have a click themselves.<<<

As for the should/shouldn't factor, there are many situations out there that demand a click track...playing live with backing tracks, playing for a musical (more and more are using them, I've noticed), playing for a recording session, etc... There are plenty of reasons to work it up if you want to be a working drummer, having good time not being the least of them.

Click tracks shouldn't be dismissed because you think that they don't allow the music to breathe or that they're stupid or whatever. It would be like me dismissing country music because I don't like to listen to it. It's still out there, and it has its place, and I'll do the gig if it pays well enough, but it's not what I aspire to...
 
I saw Queensryche play in 1992(?), Long Beach Arena, and they played the entire "Operation Mindcrime" from start to finish. And they played with a click track. All the lighting on that tour, was, for the most part, computer controlled. And the big projection screen images. And I'm sure that "technology" was used before then, and that was 18 years ago.​
I saw Pink Floyd in 1994, at the Pasadena Rose Bowl, "The Division Bell" tour, and I'd bet that was also done to a click. Look at the shows Nine Inch Nails, Tool, and Marilyn Manson throw. All that stuff is sequenced, and everyone gets the in ear click. That's the beauty of the in ear monitor.​
No one holding a gun to anyone's head, however. If you don't want to use a click, don't. If you do, that's fine.​
 
Click tracks shouldn't be dismissed because you think that they don't allow the music to breathe or that they're stupid or whatever. It would be like me dismissing country music because I don't like to listen to it. It's still out there, and it has its place, and I'll do the gig if it pays well enough,...

Ooooohhhh......you just said what I've been trying to say all week, only you did it much better.
 
Well, I agree it's a bit sad how much emphasis is put on perfection these days.

I grew up listening to classic rock on the radio, and listening to The Who, The Beatles, Pink Floyd, et all, and there isn't much room for music like that these days. Nearly every song on the radio these days is edited to death to make it sound machine perfect.

I agree 100%.

I see thresholds of imperfection and it depends on the qualities of the music. For instance, Keith Moon wasn't precise but he brought so much energy and creativity to the mix it didn't matter. Same with Mitch Mitchell. Some of Ringo's tracks wouldn't pass muster today but there were close enough to work with the music and his drum parts and feel were great.

I really enjoy that kind of rawness and imperfection, but having said that I also love super-precise music like History Repeating by The Propellorheads and Shirley Bassey and about 90% of Steely Dan's catalogue etc.

Stasz, glad you jumped in. Great post.

We could just as easily ask if it's cheating when musicians use performance enhancing drugs? The obvious answer is ... who cares if the music has something special to enjoy? Maybe their parents and friends but I, and many others, couldn't care less.

In art, the ends count more than the means. The means are only important from a health/longevity perspective and in terms of truthfulness/ethics. So Milli Vanilli's mimed performances were false advertising.

Musicians playing with clicks are different. It takes skill to play with a click so it's not a matter of musicians pretending to be better than they really are or "faking it". They are just being picky about precision and engaging in a little risk management (or playing against sequenced parts). Whatever it takes. Same with drum machines. It takes skill to compose the right beats with the right sounds and the right changes, just that it's a mental rather than physical skill.

Do office workers cheat when they have a double strength coffee in the morning to wake up? Again, whatever it takes ...
 
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I'd really like to come into this conversation late and say something really witty and intelligent that will unite everyone and help us all learn a valuable lesson...








...but I got nothing :/
 
I saw Queensryche play in 1992(?), Long Beach Arena, and they played the entire "Operation Mindcrime" from start to finish. And they played with a click track. All the lighting on that tour, was, for the most part, computer controlled. And the big projection screen images. And I'm sure that "technology" was used before then, and that was 18 years ago.​


I was at that show!!!

It was my first Queensryche show of many. It was indeed late 1991 or very early 1992.

And yes, the whole Operationmind crime segment was done to a click to line up with the video projections. Scott had car review mirrors on his drum kit so he could watch the video to make sure every thing stayed in sync.​
 
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