Pat Metheny on Kenny G and other Jazz greats

I wonder if this pot boiled over because KG 'masqueraded' as a jazz player
Hey, I'm no Kenny G fan, but you can't really think he hijacked your genre, can you? Not a very resilient form if a totally vanilla guy like that can just walk in and take it over.

Anyway, he didn't hijack the genre. For better or worse, he just broadened it to a wider audience.

It happens in rock every couple weeks. Broadly speaking, rock is a genre that never rests. Somebody's always trying to take it over and be the new cool thing. Shallow as that might sound (and as much "crap" as it generates) it actually propels the form forward with new innovative ideas.

I'm not trying to say rock is "better" than jazz, but it does employ a model that is more successful to its long-term survival than the tradition-based model used in jazz.
 
Broadly speaking, rock is a genre that never rests. Somebody's always trying to take it over and be the new cool thing.


So does jazz for those playing it but not being involved in how would you know other than to pass judgement on it and it's players regardless of the cutting edge jazz music still happening today still evolving from the firm foundation of the jazz tree {roots}.

Bit of a contradiction in terms and generalization that doesn't fly now.... isn't it?........
 
Word of advice for you MikeM......

Conrad {Jay Norem} does a MUCH better of job of being a seasoned troll and manipulating others post to push one's agenda like I just saw what you did on mine,
I'm afraid I'm going to have to take you to task on that: I didn't add or remove any of your words from your post - I added my own in parenthesis and changed the color to make it clear who's words were whose - there was NO manipulation of your words. Please at least use honesty when rebutting my comments.

And you wonder and ask about getting input from jazz players and still wonder why most jazz playing members don't post here anymore...answered your own question with your own sad behavior i'm afraid.
I'm not surprised that you were unwilling to respond to my questions. I think they're somehow threatening to you.

Got a axe to grind Mike?
Not with anyone in particular, but there are some notions from the old guard about what music in general, and drumming in particular, should and shouldn't be that I find repressive and obnoxious. Usually I try to find a respectful way to challenge or question these notions. But like anyone else, sometimes I get annoyed.

Let me say something very sincerely:
I'm going to take off my "rock" drummer hat for a second and just say that I'm simply a drummer. I like a lot of different drummers from a lot of different styles and genres. I like a lot of different jazz drummers. I could rattle off a list of jazz drummers that I like and could tell you why I liked them. There are also jazz drummers that I don't care for and could articulate why.

The point is - I don't see a lot of jazz drummers with any curiosity or much respect for the things that rock drummers do - unless they're jazz drummers playing in a rock situation, like Steve Smith or Mitch Mitchell, for example.

I would be very surprised if you, or your typical purist jazz drummer, could name me 10 rock drummers with a basic description of their styles and what you liked about them.

I find that a little off-putting, it's true. If I have an axe to grind, then that's it right there.
 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to take you to task on that: I didn't add or remove any of your words from your post - I added my own in parenthesis and changed the color to make it clear who's words were whose - there was NO manipulation of your words. Please at least use honesty when rebutting my comments.

I'm not surprised that you were unwilling to respond to my questions. I think they're somehow threatening to you.

Not with anyone in particular, but there are some notions from the old guard about what music in general, and drumming in particular, should and shouldn't be that I find repressive and obnoxious. Usually I try to find a respectful way to challenge or question those notions. But like anyone else, sometimes I get annoyed.

Let me say something very sincerely:
I'm going to take off my "rock" drummer hat for a second and just say that I'm simply a drummer. I like a lot of different drummers. I like a lot of different jazz drummers. I could rattle off a list of jazz drummers that I like and could tell you why I liked them. There are also jazz drummers that I don't care for.

The point is - I don't see a lot of jazz drummers with any curiosity or much respect for the things that rock drummers do - unless they're jazz drummers playing in a rock situation, like Steve Smith or Mitch Mitchell, for example.

I would be very surprised if you could name me 10 rock drummers with a basic description of their styles and what you liked about them.

I find that a little off-putting, it's true. If I have an axe to grind, then that's it right there.


You'd be very surprised indeed what I know about music and drummers on a much larger scale after 42 years of being a drummer. I was a pro level rock drummer working with bands when I was 17 by the way as just one mere example to pass along. Just did a stint at the Olympics with a percussion ensemble project with a ensemble from France that was not jazz at all. I've got a wide knowledge base and have and continue to cover alot of ground musically speaking. Try me...want to talk about Scottish or Swiss Basel rudimental drumming in detail or the finer workings of great rock drummers, African tribal drumming, Gamalan music, classical music etc... etc... purist card be damned.

I'm not threatened by you trust me I only get put off debating with certain people I feel who've already have made up their mind what the answer is most times with jazz and jazz players in question even before the question is even asked. Why waste my time yet again...
 
Try me...
Okay, I'll bite. Please tell me what you think of Dave Grohl. Is he a hack? Has he contributed anything to the world of drumming? Here's another that'll probably get me in trouble since I've only ever checked him out on YouTube, but how about Travis Barker? (I actually kind of like him). Stewart Copeland? Neil Peart? (hey, you're both Canadian, I suspect you'll stick up for a fellow countryman). How about our own Derek Roddy? And you gotta like John Bonham, right? Everyone loves Bonham (okay, that one was easy). How about... oh, I know: Lars Ulrich (hint: this is a trick question).

Don't hold back! In fact, maybe you should PM me your answers if you don't want to talk smack about anyone in an open forum, I'd understand that. I really am curious.
 
Hey, I'm no Kenny G fan, but you can't really think he hijacked your genre, can you? Not a very resilient form if a totally vanilla guy like that can just walk in and take it over.

Well, my personal interests lie across a few genres. I too was a little taken aback by the degree of Pat's hostility, but I can understand outrage when a pretender walks in and pretends to be someone he is not.
I think that pretty much happens in every walk of like, every job, every department..there's always this one person, usually unqualified, usually a schmoozer, usually has a great smile, someone the rest of the office universally hates, usually gets the biggest raise. KG is this guy, for Jazz.

...
 
Okay, I'll bite. Please tell me what you think of Dave Grohl. Is he a hack? Has he contributed anything to the world of drumming? Here's another that'll probably get me in trouble since I've only ever checked him out on YouTube, but how about Travis Barker? (I actually kind of like him). Stewart Copeland? Neil Peart? (hey, you're both Canadian, I suspect you'll stick up for a fellow countryman). How about our own Derek Roddy? And you gotta like John Bonham, right? Everyone loves Bonham (okay, that one was easy). How about... oh, I know: Lars Ulrich (hint: this is a trick question).

Don't hold back! In fact, maybe you should PM me your answers if you don't want to talk smack about anyone in an open forum, I'd understand that. I really am curious.

No problem.... many where early influences and the newer guys I have all checked out and followed to some degree or another...but later.... not tonight.

In return you can promise me you'll keep a open mind when it comes to jazz music and jazz drummers {past and present} right? Agreed?
 
Pol, perhaps because the true inheritors/spokespeople for legacies of any body of work, in a larger sense are not family or estate but the profession or the community.. artistic, scientific whatever.

I wonder if this pot boiled over because KG 'masqueraded' as a jazz player ( and as someone said now finds a permanent place in the jazz shelves ) which upset a lot of community sensibilities.

Wierd Al doesn't pretend to be anything other than a 'spoofist' ( if thats a word ), and a damn good one, Yani is just Yani- defies all categories, and .. and so on..there's no pretence.

True, there are various interested parties but to dismiss the wishes of the estate as irrelevant - which speaks for the man himself - seems a bit weird. Surely it's better to look at a situation with both eyes open?

Louie's estate's wishes are clearly in conflict with that of other stakeholders, ie. the jazz community. The fact is they could have said no but they didn't. Why? I think that's important.

What KG did is not the same as scribbling on the Mona Lisa because the original remains intact, although it could be said that perceptions of the wider community have been defaced. Certainly the jazz community is not going to change their views on Satchmo based on KG's overdubs.

I have no view myself ... the song was sickly sweet to start with and KG's soprano additions just added extra sugar.

So what does the wider community have to say about MG's overdubs? Check out the on the YouTube - a few obvious jazz fans but the word "beautiful" is bandied around a lot. The taste of the wider community is bloody tragic at times lol. Still these are the critters we hope to make happy with our music unless we only care about insiders.

Also, it doesn't matter what Kenny or anyone else says, if his CDs appear in the jazz section of stores then that's where his fans look for him. He plays music that shares some features with jazz.

A more interesting question would be: What is closer to jazz? Kenny G's Song Bird or Jimi Hendrix's Stone Free? Sonically you'd have to go with Kenny but Jimi's music was closer to jazz in spirit IMO. Thing is, for the general public sonics is the clincher. You can't fight city hall. You can rail against but it makes no difference.
 
No problem.... many where early influences and the newer guys I have all checked out and followed to some degree or another...but later.... not tonight.

In return you can promise me you'll keep a open mind when it comes to jazz music and jazz drummers {past and present} right? Agreed?
Of course, it's agreed. And feel free to add any others you might happen to think of. Oh, and if I could just add a couple others... Benny Greb, Thomas Lang, and Jojo Mayer (I know they're not strictly "rock" but still...). Thanks, Stan!
 
Like others you're still missing the point, Doc. How can it be "desecration" or an unfitting "tribute to the dead" if Satchmo's estate gave KG the go-ahead? Why are people, especially Pat M, silent on the most important aspect of the "controversy"?

It's too easy to play cynical and ascribe the very worst of human nature to those in charge of Satchmo's estate ("oh, they only wanted the dollars") but it would be highly presumptuous. They might have been hugely chuffed that a bestselling modern musician wanted to bring their patriarch's memory to the forefront. Ever thought of that?

None of us know this, but to throw the whole thing on KG as though he did it all by himself with no input from Louis's nearest and dearest is clearly driven more by emotion than logic.

Suppose Van Gogh's or Monet's descendants gave permission to some commercial artist to dub over some of their classic paintings for a cut of the profits from the sale? Do you see my point? Even though they gave permission, the artist did not, and is nothing sacred anymore when it comes to making a friggin profit these days? Why do we as musicians stand around and go along with the prostitution of our trade the way we do? I just do not understand it.
 
Suppose Van Gogh's or Monet's descendants gave permission to some commercial artist to dub over some of their classic paintings for a cut of the profits from the sale? Do you see my point? Even though they gave permission, the artist did not, and is nothing sacred anymore when it comes to making a friggin profit these days? Why do we as musicians stand around and go along with the prostitution of our trade the way we do? I just do not understand it.


From Pat Metheny's perspective, I think it is less about the use of the video and more about lumping Kenny G in with other leading jazz artists, as he states in the original interview. it doesn't matter where and how he got permission, Pat does not see Kenny as any type of musician holding up the standard of excellence that jazz and great musicianship require.

The question is who gets to define the genre: the artists, the labels or the public. It would seem to me that the artistic community as a whole does that, which would include both Kenny G and Pat Metheny. I think it is important to listen to what they are saying. I would wonder what Kenny G thinks of Pat's statements. I notice he doesn't do this misguided bit any more.

This debate is several years old and I have found few jazz enthusiasts and artists who actually side with Kenny G. Jazz enthusiasts saw it as a real low point and smack in the face. Pat has a lot of support, and though there was not a public outcry among other leading artists, I would suspect that other artists were not happy with it. So the question is, should a player get away with doing something that disrespects other jazz artists? Should someone who is not playong jazz be marketed as a jazz icon? Obviously, it takes guts for artists to speak out and say "No, Enough already."

People will argue, art is about breaking expectation and often offending loyalists. But that is not what is going on here. This is marketing pure and simple. This is about making money. This is about positing yourself a long side one of the leading figures in jazz when you don't belong there. Metheny "His callous disregard for the larger issues of what this crass gesture implies is exacerbated by the fact that the only reason he possibly have for doing something this inherently wrong (on both human and musical terms) was for the record sales and the money it would bring."

http://www.johnharle.com/philosophy/articles-philosophy/KennyG.html

I don't know that that was the full reason. I think it was misguided attempt "to bring jazz to the masses." One could argue well jazz is for everybody and if anything Kenny G is democratizing the genre. I would ask, Why does a specific genre of music, an artist or a style have to be for everyone? Why should a listener not have to do any study or work associated with developing a deeper understanding of what an artist is doing? Why should music need to be immediate? ?Why should it be always be banal? Why shouldn't it be something special for those who have cultivated a taste for it?
 
As I stated before,

Kenny G stated at the time,"...I didn't want to spoil the original. I said, 'Whatever we do, if we're not going to make it better, let's throw it away and we won't do it.' So (Foster) guaranteed that it would be better, and I hope that we did a good job on it."[18] Some columnists countered the criticisms suggesting such a recording would bring classic jazz to a wider audience.[19]

So whether it was crass or not can also be debated since Kenny G did have feelings about the recording before it was done. And I don't think Kenny G ever said he was a Jazz musician. He got dropped there because what he plays didn't have a named genre at the time. And I'm sure Pat donated all of his money to charity that he made recording some "smooth jazz" songs.
 
Well taking musical lead from David Foster was probably a bad idea. When Kenny G got in the elevator and said t"his is a happening place," David Foster said "Yeah, I come here all the time."

But I think that the fact that is was done for charity does explain why the estate would have him use it, and it also does nullify the misguided attempt to bring classic jazz to the masses. Well, this tune is far from classic jazz.

What Metheny gives to charity is his business; but even the publicity generated by the recording of Kenny G with Pops generated him a lot of money. Is it really charity when a millionaire gives away money he doesn't need. There is a certain amount of money that you need to survive, and everything on top of that is gravy, and everything on top of that is just a little too much for one man to know what to do with. lol
 
To me the way to handle this situation is simple. Write a musical missile directed at Kenny G with lyrics that express the depth of his.... wrongness, misguidedness, or whatever.
This serves a few purposes. It gives the offended a real way to express their views on the subject. It also would send a message to the general public just what it is that Kenny G did to offend the dyed in the wool jazz enthusiasts. It gives the offended power in that it's obvious that they're not going to sit back and take Kenny G's desecration of an icon.

Music is about expression, right? What better impetus is there for writing a scathing rebuttal than being PO'd at someone?
A really juicy song should reach more people than a soundbyte from a newsclip (or wherever Pat M's clip came from) It could turn out to be something far better than merely calling foul.
I think this would not only raise awareness among the general public, it might actually make some money for the writer. (nothing wrong with that) A win win. Write a great attack song, it might even go down in history like Johns Lennon's song to Paul McCartney, "How Do You Sleep" or Skynyrds public dissing of Neil Young in "Sweet Home Alabama". Kenny G gets publicly taken to task for his misguided actions, and the people who were offended get a safe way to vent their frustration and perhaps educate people who need it. Anyone disagree?
 
Well, this tune is far from classic jazz.

Exactly. Anyway, it wasn't even written by or for Armstrong. It was written by a couple of industry guys who then shopped it around.

It's not as though Kenny G did an overdub on "Struttin' With Some Barbecue."
 
To me the way to handle this situation is simple. Write a musical missile directed at Kenny G with lyrics that express the depth of his.... wrongness, misguidedness, or whatever.
This serves a few purposes. It gives the offended a real way to express their views on the subject. It also would send a message to the general public just what it is that Kenny G did to offend the dyed in the wool jazz enthusiasts. It gives the offended power in that it's obvious that they're not going to sit back and take Kenny G's desecration of an icon.

Music is about expression, right? What better impetus is there for writing a scathing rebuttal than being PO'd at someone?
A really juicy song should reach more people than a soundbyte from a newsclip (or wherever Pat M's clip came from) It could turn out to be something far better than merely calling foul.
I think this would not only raise awareness among the general public, it might actually make some money for the writer. (nothing wrong with that) A win win. Write a great attack song, it might even go down in history like Johns Lennon's song to Paul McCartney, "How Do You Sleep" or Skynyrds public dissing of Neil Young in "Sweet Home Alabama". Kenny G gets publicly taken to task for his misguided actions, and the people who were offended get a safe way to vent their frustration and perhaps educate people who need it. Anyone disagree?

Have we not learned anything from the deaths of Tupac and Biggie? I'd hate to see
the possie's of these two shooting up birdland.
 
It is a good point. But do you really think jazz guys would take up arms over this?
 
It is a good point. But do you really think jazz guys would take up arms over this?
I took it as a wisecrack. It doesn't seem like there's a lot of violence going on in jazz culture, so I got a humorous image of some irate guys in turtlenecks (and one really cute one with curls and Don Johnson PJs) nervously pointing never-fired heaters at each other. Good bit of comic relief there, IMO!
 
To me the way to handle this situation is simple. Write a musical missile directed at Kenny G with lyrics that express the depth of his.... wrongness, misguidedness, or whatever.
This serves a few purposes. It gives the offended a real way to express their views on the subject. It also would send a message to the general public just what it is that Kenny G did to offend the dyed in the wool jazz enthusiasts. It gives the offended power in that it's obvious that they're not going to sit back and take Kenny G's desecration of an icon.

Music is about expression, right? What better impetus is there for writing a scathing rebuttal than being PO'd at someone?

Great idea, but that implies either one (Metheny or Kenny G) actually sing! LOL
It would just have to be instrumental music that implied their frustrations....

Have we not learned anything from the deaths of Tupac and Biggie? I'd hate to see
the possie's of these two shooting up birdland.

ROTFL......

No, but I can seem them throwing sax reeds at each other......
 
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