Jazz drummers: How do you work on soloing?

Lots of good answers here.

The one thing I will say, though, is that some of you seem very quick to jump to conclusions about people's experience level with jazz.

The fact is, I do listen non-stop, and I play quite frequently, too. I also practice my ass off.

I posed the question about soloing because it's something I've been thinking about lately. My ability to play good-feeling time is already under control, so I've been turning my attention elsewhere.

Seeing as how soloing is an actual thing that happens on jazz gigs, it's reasonable for a person to ask, "how do you guys work on it?"

I'm well aware of the need to listen to people and cop their feel and ideas.

Some of you are giving stock answers and not actually taking the time to think about the question I've posed. Either that or I'm not asking it clearly. Totally possible.

My goal was to have a conversation, much like if I was sitting in a room with other drummers.

Anyway, let's not be so quick to make sweeping judgements based on small amounts of information.

My approach is to have the melody of the head of the tune in my mind as I play. I can do that alone in a practice room without listening to anyone else. Of course, on the bandstand, you're going to be reacting to the music you've all just played, so your inspiration and context will be different. That's the part you simply can't recreate in a practice room.

I like occasionally playing a phrase that is lifted directly from the rhythm of the melodic line. If you do this too much, it sounds corny. But occasionally doing it gives the audience (and your bandmates) a point of reference and I think it adds an element of tension and release (with the recognizable phrase being the release) to the solo.

n1ck said:

I'm well aware of the need to listen to people and cop their feel and ideas.

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See, this is wrong. It's more about: "Elvin Jones/Roy Haynes/Philly Joe/whoever is God-- because of what they played on this record-- I want to be/do that."

Don't take it personally. This is all about information. If you're only worried about whether the world is "judging" you fairly, you'll never get anywhere with it. Take the information.

Sorry, dude, but you're actually full of shit.

Try reading through old issues of Modern Drummer, where people like John Riley, Jeff Hamilton, Art Taylor, Philly Joe, and other masters espouse the same thing.

Listen to records and cop the feel and their ideas. That's what you do. And if that's "wrong," as you say, then a whole lot of world-class players are wrong.

It's real hard to practice alone. With improv solos you usually need a few musicians to play off of and inspire you. It's more mental than anything else really, and the best practice is trial and error at gigs

We don't have all the answers and none of us are ever gonna be max roach or gene krupa. It's all good though don't worry too much about it, all we can do is share from personal experiences

Ya know Nick you can disagree with someone without saying they are full of it. That part about "jumping to conclusions" goes both ways my friend. You could have just stated why you disagree-then Todd if he so chooses could respond. The moderator would tell you the same thing-he must be busy-well he would have just deleted your comment actually you've read the rules.

My little diatribe the first time was me "respectfully" disagreeing.

Sorry for saying shit, though, I guess?

This is really all my fault for trying to have an honest-to-God conversation on the internet. Lesson learned.

I appreciate those of you who contributed without feeling the need to grandstand.

No you're fine-don't give up-you've come to the right place. Just some caution how we phrase stuff-I step in it too. Be respectful and civil and you're home free. You made your salient point-just the preface part can get you in trouble. You're. among friends. I'm pretty sure some folks can't stand me-but I got use to that crap years ago.

I don't really know anyone who sets out to "work" on soloing drums.

A good solo, especially in jazz is so rooted conceptually, melodically and rhythmically to the music that goes around that solo that you can't really separate them if you want to really be doing the right thing.

I think if you really want to "work" on soloing, you should do it with context, I know that sounds backwards, but I promise you'll learn more by trying to replicate a melody in the music on the drumset or contrast a head rhythm than you will just trying to bank a bunch of "licks" that people will drool over you for. If you do it enough, it'll become second nature and you can take a solo anywhere.

n1ck said:

Sorry, dude, but you're actually full of shit.

Try reading through old issues of Modern Drummer, where people like John Riley, Jeff Hamilton, Art Taylor, Philly Joe, and other masters espouse the same thing.

Listen to records and cop the feel and their ideas. That's what you do. And if that's "wrong," as you say, then a whole lot of world-class players are wrong.

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This is the strangest conversation I've ever been a part of. I would ask what you think I said, but I'm really not interested.

Serious students know what I'm talking about because they're already fanatical listeners instinctively, and they didn't have to be talked into it or reminded about it.

That Guiliana book with the DROP curricular is very i spiring and helped me unearth some of my own creativity, as I felt I was in a rut.

This thread recently took a weird tangent but I view it as being entirely salvageable. Some jazz folks tend to take all things jazz very personal, which is a good thing because it shows commitment but I see no need to lose our manners over it.

Let us keep civil and carry on.

Yeah I really wanna check that book out now! I’m not a huge fan of dude’s playing, but I respect how far he’s pushed his thing.

Nick - I think the passion of being obsessed with the playing of a particular drummer or drummers will help drive you to go deep.

That's how I learned to solo.

I've been obsessed, at various times, with many different drummers, and each time, that drove me to transcribe specific solos of theirs that I loved, and then learn ideas from those solos verbatim. Then, the next step is to alter the ideas of the people you "steal" from (stealing is legal in this sense....all musicians steal from others while learning) so you start sounding like you.

So, I suggest finding someone you freak out about when you hear them....what is the solo that makes you lose your mind with excitement? That's where I'd start.

Just listening isn't enough. Most of the great soloists transcribed and learned from those transcriptions.

As always it's always advisable to go find a teacher who's a specialist in this.

I sort of use the same material, principles and such with all students, but how i get them started and get them to open up to being creative and musical depends entirely on each individual.

Todd is right tho...the first time I heard Stomping at the Savoy, I knew I wanted to sound like that. It went beyond just learning the solo (which of course I did). It was more like I wanted to understand that particular way of playing drums, I wanted to understand how Max talked, I wanted to learn that language, I wanted to be fluent, to be able to hear it, to speak it, to communicate and express myself within it.

You don't really need to ask how to work on soloing, when you have stuff like Max's Stomping at the Savoy and Roy Hayne's Down Home and Tony's Seven Steps from 4&More and Philly Joe on...anything. The path is clear and the way already exists. And if you REALLY want to learn, then go even earlier, Baby Dodds, Papa Joe, Big Sid. You don't even need to listen to as much guys as possible, just find a solo that resonates with you and try to really make it a part of you. You know how we all usually have some life lesson that we learned early on from a parent or a teacher? You know "My mom always used to say..." Listen till you find something that resonates with you on that kind of level.

Yes, you can get books, the Guiliana book is great, you should check out Riley's Art of Bop books as well (tho you probably have already) but just remember there weren't any "how to play jazz" books in Philly Joe's time. These guys learned by listening to records, listening to other drummers and playing extensively.

So instead of trying to just cop their ideas, try to imitate that whole approach. I feel like you want to talk more about the practice room and what to specifically do when you're there but honestly there are no set rules. There's no specific way to do it, take a listen to Guiliana and Antonio Sanchez and Brian Blade, they sound wildly different, and they probably all spent their time in the practice room very differently, but they all sound authentically like jazz players because they understand the approach that all master players have gone thru to learn the music.

Numberless said:

You don't really need to ask how to work on soloing, when you have stuff like Max's Stomping at the Savoy and Roy Hayne's Down Home and Tony's Seven Steps from 4&More and Philly Joe on...anything. The path is clear and the way already exists.

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I appreciate that your heart's probably in the right place, and I realize this answer sounds good, but it just isn't helpful.

It's also not true.

Are you a master jazz drummer? Have you mastered soloing solely by listening to and imitating the solos you love? If not, how do you know what you're suggesting works?

I've done lots of what you mentioned, and though it obviously enriches your playing in specific ways, there's more to the equation.

That's what I'm looking to get into here.

feldiefeld said:

Nick - I think the passion of being obsessed with the playing of a particular drummer or drummers will help drive you to go deep.

That's how I learned to solo.

I've been obsessed, at various times, with many different drummers, and each time, that drove me to transcribe specific solos of theirs that I loved, and then learn ideas from those solos verbatim. Then, the next step is to alter the ideas of the people you "steal" from (stealing is legal in this sense....all musicians steal from others while learning) so you start sounding like you.

So, I suggest finding someone you freak out about when you hear them....what is the solo that makes you lose your mind with excitement? That's where I'd start.

Just listening isn't enough. Most of the great soloists transcribed and learned from those transcriptions.

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All good advice. I appreciate it, man. Thanks.

The specific thing I’m struggling with—and I don’t think I’ve been able to articulate this properly in this thread—is the idea of taking a little chunk of vocab from, say, Philly Joe, and getting it IN to my playing.

I’ve transcribed a gazillion solos over the years, but I always end up feeling like I do it, I play through it for a couple weeks, and then it just kind of… sits there. In no way does any of the material make its way into my actual playing on the gig.

Having spent some time reading about this topic, I now realize that I was probably going too “macro” in my approach. What I SHOULD have been doing is to isolate one little PIECE of language and mining THAT from top to bottom.

So my recent approach—and I’m early into this—is to do the following:


1. Identify a vocab chunk I like

2. Drill the crap out of it by itself (trying to maintain good sound, phrasing, etc.)

3. Start the idea on different beats of the bar and drill those a bunch

4. Put on tunes and play the original idea and permutations ad nauseam so I can hear how they lay over the music

5. Re-orchestrate the idea and drill that a bunch with and without music

6. Come up with rhythmic variations on the idea and drill those a bunch with and without music


This, from what I can tell, seems to represent best practices among the dudes whose opinions I trust, but I’d definitely love to hear from others.

Again, my end-goal is to have a deep well of creative ideas that I can improvise with in the moment. More specifically, I’d like to have total mastery over EACH idea that comes to me, so that I can manipulate them at will. Yes, I realize this is a lifelong process.

For those of you who’ve really put in time with jazz, please do chime in. How do you specifically go about building your vocabulary? How long do you focus on one idea?

Also, just for context, I spend a lot of time listening, and I gig often. This is not a case of "the drummer wants to play jazz." I genuinely pour myself into it.

Just clarifying that in the hopes that we can have a good conversation.

n1ck said:

I appreciate that your heart's probably in the right place, and I realize this answer sounds good, but it just isn't helpful.

It's also not true.

Are you a master jazz drummer? Have you mastered soloing solely by listening to and imitating the solos you love? If not, how do you know what you're suggesting works?

I've done lots of what you mentioned, and though it obviously enriches your playing in specific ways, there's more to the equation.

That's what I'm looking to get into here.

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William is a phenomenal jazz drummer who has dedicated his life to playing jazz

if I were you I would listen to everything he says

there are not many jazz drummers on this forum unfortunately ... probably about 3 to be honest ... William is one of them

being resistant to those giving you information who have already traveled the path you wish to go down is not in your best interest at this time

n1ck said:

...Again, my end-goal is to have a deep well of creative ideas that I can improvise with in the moment.. .

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The best lesson I had on this subject was with Billy Ward. He showed me a concept that he calls “Practice/Playing”. Basically he taught me to approach practicing in a less left-brain manner. We all come up drilling rudiments, grooves, licks, independence, etc. But if you want to improvise, you have to be coming from a creative place.

It’s a simple idea - take a melody, just a couple of notes - and without thinking, play it on the drums.
Play this simple melody in as many different ways as you can - on different instruments, dynamics, note values - extend it, shorten it, etc. You’re through-composing, not stopping to think about what to play next. Eventually you’re going to trip yourself up. If you get tangled up, you’ll need to come up with some sort of technique (your own technique) to execute your idea. Through this process, you'll come up with your own vocabulary.

Again, the key is not to overthink, let your ears dictate what you play, not a pattern or sticking. Balancing on this tightrope, as Billy calls it, gets you in the zone of creating on the spot, so when you’re on the gig and suddenly hear something cool from the rest of the band, you can dive right in because you’ve practiced being in that creative place.

n1ck said:

..This, from what I can tell, seems to represent best practices among the dudes whose opinions I trust, but I’d definitely love to hear from others..

..For those of you who’ve really put in time with jazz, please do chime in..

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To be honest, i think you are starting a 'fight' a little with the wrong people now..I know is not a fight, but you are just not sounding very nice, thats what i mean..

Like Tony said above, this forum has maybe 3 people that you can blindly trust when speaking about jazz..

Numberless for sure is one of them, just like Alex Sanguinetti and Tony himself..

Maybe you should first browse a little through the 'your playing'-section, or anywhere where these members posted videos, before making comments like this..